53 replies to this topic

[Kaptain]

AND the IFF bug is back???

Only 3 possible scenarios in my mind
-PGI is in over their head/incompetent (I defended them against angry frounders for over a year, maybe I was wrong)
-PGI is only trying to do the bare minimum while sucking as much money out of the IP as they can
-Cry-engine was a MASSIVE mistake

[Summon3r]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 20 May 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Each patch the list gets a bit smaller. Every once and a while it gets bigger when we add a new feature too, thus creating new needs and shifting priorities. Either way, we greatly appreciate those players who remain patient and appreciate our resource availability means we can only do so much with each patch. Those who really want to and have the skills to help us speed things along are welcome to apply to one of our several relevant and open positions to further expand our team: http://piranhagames.com/#CAREERS

i dont want to sound like im attacking you personally.... but is this a joke? or a complete slap in our faces??

there isnt a chance in HELL the list is getting smaller. with each patch that you people release more is broken, and the things that need fixing dont get fixed/patched... stop adding CRAP content for people to buy with MC and start focusing your efforts on actually improving the issues at hand.... Kaptian's list is barely a start but it would be a VERY GOOD start for you. shocking that the current UI/mechlab has been aloud to go on like this for so long, actually not shocking at all.

[Summon3r]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 23 May 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

While we progress on content, every developer on earth knows that more content brings more bugs, which means bug fixing in tandem with new content is a necessity for an ongoing service such as ourselves. Thankfully, our process means that the gross majority of bugs are caught well before they ever see the light of day, but there are still factors we can never entirely or perfectly test.

Additionally, in order to carry on in our business, we need to keep producing new content available for MC. It's not an expectation that every player should buy everything: Just the things they want. Without these consistent releases of new monetized content, we certainly won't be able to investigate more free content as we already do. Private lobbies, for example, were a massive recent undertaking.

I thank you for your response, but honestly it just doesnt cut it, and i dont think that answer will cut it for much of the community. ty tho

[Cest7]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 23 May 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

in order to carry on in our business, we need to keep producing new content available for MC.

You can keep slapping us with copy pasted reskins of mechs and cockpit items, this may sustain the company for a year or two.... However, without any content updates and the constant release of broken features, people aren't going to want to keep buying fluff....

[jackal40]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 23 May 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

While we progress on content, every developer on earth knows that more content brings more bugs, which means bug fixing in tandem with new content is a necessity for an ongoing service such as ourselves. Thankfully, our process means that the gross majority of bugs are caught well before they ever see the light of day, but there are still factors we can never entirely or perfectly test.

I've seen and heard this comment from too many software developers over the past few years. I worked as the IT department for a small medical software management company where we employed as many QA, testers, and support staff as we did developers.

QA and testing had the requirement for 99% of bugs detected before release. We used automated, manual (a real person), and selected customers to test each new release before it went into production.

While I'll admit the circumstances are slightly different, I still question PGI's QA and testing process. Many of the bugs we've seen this year should have been caught and fixed before release. Your public test process is weak at best, why are new items for testing available for such a short time, during the worst possible date and times to get maximum testing, and you don't seem to listen to the testers observations.

I've volunteered my time as a game alpha and beta tester (specifically WoT and WoWp recently). I've had devs do a ride along via skype video so they could see the actual issue. While I didn't participate with the beta test for MWO, I certainly haven't seen anything to indicate that level of involvement by the devs here.

In short - I hear what you are saying, and I'm not buying it.

[lowe0]

Kaptain, on 23 May 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

AND the IFF bug is back???

Only 3 possible scenarios in my mind
-PGI is in over their head/incompetent (I defended them against angry frounders for over a year, maybe I was wrong)
-PGI is only trying to do the bare minimum while sucking as much money out of the IP as they can
-Cry-engine was a MASSIVE mistake

My guess would be technical debt. Once you've bootstrapped your project into production, you have to go back and rewrite the sections of code that aren't maintainable going forward. Doing that sucks resources away from new features, but the longer it's left untouched, the more time it sucks up fixing bugs, especially pesky intermittent and regression bugs.

[Helmer]

lowe0, on 24 May 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

My guess would be technical debt. Once you've bootstrapped your project into production, you have to go back and rewrite the sections of code that aren't maintainable going forward. Doing that sucks resources away from new features, but the longer it's left untouched, the more time it sucks up fixing bugs, especially pesky intermittent and regression bugs.

I know Karl Berg has alluded to this ,while still trying to be professional and politically correct. Which would account for some of the early ,and still persistent delays in development. Not nearly all of them, of course, but some.

I'm sure PGI wouldn't want to be that Developer who comes out and says "Cryteks support is horrible" , but it certainly seems to be the case from the outside looking in.


Cheers.

[Runenstahl]

I don't even see the problem you guys are having.

MWO is a FREE online game. While you CAN spend money on it you can enjoy it just as well for free.

Every now and then PGI strives to improve things due to new patches (and yes, they DO improve stuff). And every now and then this causes problems. But in ALL of these cases the problem was taken care of rather quickly.

And yes, I would like this or that content in the game. But if PGI takes longer then anticipated to give us more FREE stuff (be it maps, mechs, gamemodes or CW)... what gives me the right to complain about it ?

[Kaptain]

Runenstahl, on 24 May 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

For those of us who FUNDED this project the game is NOT free.
Many of us purcha$ed into this game to help $upport and fund a vi$ion... a vi$ion that is no where to be found YEAR$ later.
-the xp system is a placeholder for class specific skills (read role warfare) that are now vaporware
-the game modes were supposed to be placeholder for much more engaging game modes. At one point it was said MWO will not be about "go here, cap this" HAHAHA
-We have been out right lied to time and time again. 3rd person, coolant flush, CW, role warefare, game modes...
-They don't care about constructive feedback so complaining has set in. Read: heat-scale, ghost heat, UI2.0...
-We are the "vocal minority" on our "island" (Nothing could be a bigger !@#$ you to the founders. nothing.)

"In ALL cases the problem is taken care of rather quickly"
hahaha
oh, wait...
You're serious?
Here, let me laugh even harder
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

What gives us the right to complain?
Constitutions of many countries
Declaration on international human rights
The title of this forum area: "Patch Feedback" (a list of !@#$ that is STILL broken IS feedback)
The $120 I invested to help get this project going
The $80 I invested when they made additional promises they either can not keep or are unwilling to keep

And finally when the Community Manager Tells us the list is getting smaller, something that is demonstrably not true, its going to make people mad. (see angry/frustrated responses by people above) The ONLY way you can say the list is getting smaller is if you look at the game with tunnel vision... an example of this would be to consider UI2.0, pos that it is, "Complete"... and they do! While simultaneously ignoring the problems and bugs that it created.

[Kaptain]

Forgot the "log-out of game = endlessly connecting" bug in my previous list.

[Peter2k]

Runenstahl, on 24 May 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

I don't even see the problem you guys are having.

MWO is a FREE online game. While you CAN spend money on it you can enjoy it just as well for free.

Every now and then PGI strives to improve things due to new patches (and yes, they DO improve stuff). And every now and then this causes problems. But in ALL of these cases the problem was taken care of rather quickly.

And yes, I would like this or that content in the game. But if PGI takes longer then anticipated to give us more FREE stuff (be it maps, mechs, gamemodes or CW)... what gives me the right to complain about it ?

You have to see the bigger picture here.
MWO is a niche game as all Mechwarrior games have been; some colleagues of mine (be it 25, or 45) they know about Star Citizen, but whats MWO?
So keeping the customers you have might be better in the long run, you know word of mouth is quite strong as well.

Customers/Gamers that come to the forums are the ones that actually care enough to make themselves heard, trying to make someone actually listen.
I bet most/all of those who "whine" actually have spent some money on MWO.
Unlike the ones who just leave, and may never come back.

We want this game to be so successful that its going to be a case study of doing a game right.

But as it stands now the promised features are still missing; some have not even made it into some lines of codes yet.

Bugs are getting introduced as sure as an amen in a church with every patch; and here`s the thing that doesn't inspire trust in the customers, e.g. us gamers:
every patch something gets broken that worked before or was fixed in a patch before.
And even better it has absolutely nothing to do with the content that got added, fixes of bugs, new features, ...

It`s just like a gremlin goes through some lines of code just before the patch goes life and changes a few variables, or lines of codes here and there.


Also while I`d be happy to help out PGI, I´m as sure as Hell not going to relocate my wife and newborn child to a realy nice cold country, for a position in a gaming company that doesn't want to listen to its customers.
However there have been those in the community that wanted to help PGI, making Maps, a soundtrack and other stuff, right down to some really well thought out ideas

I frequent the forums on a near daily basis since closed Beta, and I have yet to see any single thing suggested or pointed out by the community/test server players that gets taken into account.

I have only ever seen things change when the forums where literally on fire.

Which is a bit sad.

Why run a test server in such a tight time window
Why not listen to the community
And if that's only the smallest portion of you're user base, why not try to bring all players to vote on some decisions, getting a free mechbay for participating in the vote or such.


And while I do respect Niko a lot;
I do have to say that the list of features is getting longer while practically nothing gets taken off.
The list of bugs is rather growing, while actually not a lot of content comes out, and the bugs have nothing to do with some new stuff most of the times.

And on a personal note; I think that cockpitglas like it was first envisioned was more like this:
The more damage you take, the more cracks you have in you're window, maybe even air gets sucked out a little on maps like HPG
not just some dirt begging for a wiper
;also whoever cleans the mechs in our hangars should clean the windows as well

So not every feature that gets added is exactly like it was hoped and envisioned.

The core combat is fun, but never changing.
i have 80 mill C-Bills, I had more if I wouldnt try some silly builds once in a while. I have expendable income that I would like to give, but its still the same game, with only a bit more eye candy out of game, with less eye candy actually in-game and more stuff to buy for real cash.

And maps are not useless free content
You think anyone would stick around if this game had a million mechs but only one or two maps to play on?

Keeping things fun is the first thing for a GAME, its a GAME.
It`s supposed to be fun, a fun way to waste time.
And since its a game of many it has to compete with other stuff, and OTHER games.

So if this game wouldn't be about big stompy robots it wouldn't have survived for long, its the Mechwarrior and TT/BT Fans who keep things going.
Now we might be a difficult crowd, but we would shove down money PGI`s throat if we are kept happy.

But as it stands its not better than MW:LL.
Which was free too.
And that one got taken down through lawyers by PGI, not because no one wanted to play it.

The day I stop being concerned where this game is going might be the day I quite entirely.
Like the other "whiners", most are probably also buyers not only players.

If I love the game I don't need more and more and more stuff to buy, I just buy premium time to keep things going, but please give me more fun things to do than team deathmatch for 2 years.

I think every Customer has the right to complain, like he has the right to leave.
And there was a time when we didn't complain (or granted most didn't) but suggested, we didn't get heard, and some started to complain, most just left.


All we want is something more than:
Its coming soon

We heard that a dozens of times already.
Don't promise, just deliver and the cash will come in flowing like a waterfall. (we love this IP after all)
And the Reddit from Russ didn't help there so much; no new maps because of work on clan mechs, e.g. stuff to buy.
And some other frightful stuff in there

[Kaptain]

Peter2k. Well said. Well said.

[Runenstahl]

Peter2k, on 24 May 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Customers/Gamers that come to the forums are the ones that actually care enough to make themselves heard, trying to make someone actually listen.

Don't forget those that care for the game but just enjoy it by playing it.

I spend money on this game too and I think it was well spend. I have no hard data but to me it looks that those people who are happy or at least "content" with the game are seldom posting stuff in the forums. It's those people that are unhappy that post a lot. As is their right. Heck, I think it is their DUTY to post stuff they don't like. I'm NOT complaining about that. I just would like people to change their attitude away from being whining, demanding or even threatening.

It looks to me that no matter what PGI does, people will complain about it. They even complain about stuff they haven't even seen in the game yet. Remember this whole rage about consumables turning the game into pay-to-win ? Turns out it didn't,
3rd person view was really going to destroy everything about this game... except it didn't.

When new maps where introduced people complained about the fact they wanted mechs instead. Now people complain about getting mechs but no maps.

You helped to found this game. That is great and I thank you for it. It's because of the help of founders that I can enjoy this game. And maybe thats the whole trick: instead of wanting the game to be the way you envision it should be.... just try to enjoy it for what it is. And who knows, give PGI some time and it might just get there.

[Outlaw]

Kaptain, on 23 May 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

-Cry-engine was a MASSIVE mistake

Thats what I said when they finally announced MWO and chose Cry-engine. Sure Unreal3 was outdated but im sure they would have had a lot larger talent pool that is accustomed to working with the engine than they got with Cry-Engine.

Overall the game isnt too bad, and if you want to complain about lack of content, then turn your glare over to the people who begged for Clan Mechs like a million bleating lambs long enough for IGP to take notice and monitize on it, they have stated the Clans are one of their content bottlenecks right now, and you cant blame them for trying to appease the majority who asked for it and who are willing to pay for it.

In the end, they do not have a Publisher backing them with EA or Ubisoft quantities of cash, and they need ways of earning revenue to cover expenses and stay profitable, cause the minute it looks like the game wont be profitable i garuntee you IGP will move in and shut everything down. Some people may want this, but the way i see it, if this doesnt show profitability and it does get shut down, other developers and publishers are going to think that the IP is not profitable and no one will want to touch it with a 40 foot pole. Be careful what you wish for people.

[Peter2k]

Runenstahl, on 24 May 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Don't forget those that care for the game but just enjoy it by playing it.

I spend money on this game too and I think it was well spend. I have no hard data but to me it looks that those people who are happy or at least "content" with the game are seldom posting stuff in the forums. It's those people that are unhappy that post a lot. As is their right. Heck, I think it is their DUTY to post stuff they don't like. I'm NOT complaining about that. I just would like people to change their attitude away from being whining, demanding or even threatening.

It looks to me that no matter what PGI does, people will complain about it. They even complain about stuff they haven't even seen in the game yet. Remember this whole rage about consumables turning the game into pay-to-win ? Turns out it didn't,
3rd person view was really going to destroy everything about this game... except it didn't.

When new maps where introduced people complained about the fact they wanted mechs instead. Now people complain about getting mechs but no maps.

You helped to found this game. That is great and I thank you for it. It's because of the help of founders that I can enjoy this game. And maybe thats the whole trick: instead of wanting the game to be the way you envision it should be.... just try to enjoy it for what it is. And who knows, give PGI some time and it might just get there.

Oh I still enjoy the core combat, although its still being subject to seemingly random balance changes that might not work out so well on the first attempt
Hell balancing LRM's, with Artemis took 9 or so attempts (miss the optics of those Artemis spirals, too bad they where so OP)

It's just sad to see so much potential to go to waste, closed Beta seemed so much better in retrospect.
I played sh*tloads of hours of MWO, I got my moneys worth, but it still could be so much more.
I'd love to give them my money
I bought the smallest clan package for the early bird bonuses and wanted to upgrade when and if I'm happy with the promises, features and timelines THEY themselves set.

But in the end its still just promises, over half of them empty ones.
And that's the problem.

The unique Warhorns are part of the really high priced clan packages, and yet absolutely no idea what those really are?
And again a bit too much PGI like; promises to deliver content, but please keep buying in the meantime, paying upfront for stuff you don't know how its going to be exactly balanced, implemented, and what some of those bonuses really are or look like.

For some of us its just smoke and mirrors whats left on top of the same game from 2 years ago.
If it wouldn't be for the IP, PGI couldn't have kept promising stuff that they couldn't possibly hold, and that's what they have to make up these days for.

We had promises, and we still get promises, and it just comes down to this:
just deliver on you're own promises

Bad history.
Now bad performance in the past might not show you exactly how stuff in the future will go, but you can make some quite spot on educated guesses.

Outlaw, on 24 May 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

other developers and publishers are going to think that the IP is not profitable and no one will want to touch it with a 40 foot pole. Be careful what you wish for people.

Yes, we know, we all know that, that's the beauty of having fans that are actually grown ups (yes hard to think sometimes, I know).
We know what the consequences are, including some reviving of that old MW4 or MW:LL, which is kinda not possible thanks to PGI at the moment.

Look at it this way, give the fans what they want (or lets say 80% of them, there's always some kind of tantrum going on) and you might have a profitable free ride for the next 10 years or so, maybe longer if it would be up to those fans.

you see: the art team gets barely any kind of criticism of not doing there job
They just do a realy good job of modelling those mechs in a good looking way.


In the end we just want real content, promises to be fulfilled, fun to be had.
and some of those things hinge on those pillars they draw up so long ago, and let them crumble partly, and ignore the others.

examples:
instead of forcing 3/3/3/3, they originally wanted to give players an actually good reason to pilot different classes.
It was called role warfare

Many players told PGI since closed Beta that the XP system is rather boring.
Those posts have been showing up again and again over the years.

And we were told its just a placeholder, until the placeholder became the standard.



And on the topic of CryEngine:

SC uses CryEngine.
We're gonna see if its a real mistake for those guys as well.

For me its always my understanding that you can do great things in CryEngine, but you need some really good coding skills and know what you're doing to pull it off.

I'm sure PGI would've gone unreal engine if Epic had they're unreal engine for such a cheap offer back in the day as of today.
But whats done is done on that topic now.
I guess Canadians don't like to become programmers n stuff , or IGP is not really giving out good job packages.

[Xoxim SC]

Honestly we really don't need anymore maps, especially since the map cycle seems to focus around Terra Therma, that big snow one that I can never remember, and Caustic Valley (at least in my experience).

I'd rather see some balancing done to get rid of this stupid poptarting bullshit, and add some meaning back to diverse builds and proper mech roles.

A map preference selector that allows you to choose 6 maps (a larger number to avoid long queues) would be fricken amazing!

[Kaptain]

Outlaw, on 24 May 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Since you quoted me I assume you are talking to me. I have not, nor am I, complaining about content.

As for profitability there are many legendary package owners and overlord package owners who would happily purchase a full masakari package ($240) if UI2.0 wasn't a complete POS. (seriously its easier to build everything on smurfy and THEN copy it into MWO, mech section by mech section) OR if 3333 (ignoring that it is a band-aid fix for the missing role warfare we were promised) didn't fall flat on its face every time they try to implement it while occasionally making MM even worse than it already is (Read 12mans vs pugs)

That, and the Ghost in the machine bugs are frustrating. At this rate I fully expect to see minimap corruption, black screens of death, cursor stuck on screen bugs and LRMs only target center torso and/or head, again.

[Peter2k]

Todd Lightbringer, on 24 May 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Honestly we really don't need anymore maps, especially since the map cycle seems to focus around Terra Therma, that big snow one that I can never remember, and Caustic Valley (at least in my experience).

I'd rather see some balancing done to get rid of this stupid poptarting bullshit, and add some meaning back to diverse builds and proper mech roles.

A map preference selector that allows you to choose 6 maps (a larger number to avoid long queues) would be fricken amazing!

A vote was supposed to be implemented, voting on a map
in the launch module how it was cooked up quite some time ago

but then it wasn't supposed to look like what we have now as well i guess

[Outlaw]

@Kaptain, i was quoting that particular part because i feel that point sums up a lot of the issues i think the Dev team is facing. Sorry, it was not intended to be directed at you, more to say that right there is where i think you are right.

[anonymous161]

Pretty much this game is going straight in the garbage, it's degrading faster than they can put their pitiful bandaids that dont work.

I really just think this company is not cut out for it. They have no history of making a solid game, every game has been rated terribly which is why I'm wondering how they got the ip to begin with. There are fans who do much better work, look at the mods for mechwarrior 4, or how about looking at mechwarrior legendary legends I think it's called game looks pretty sweet and you know what? They did it for free.

PGI is purely in it for profit, the only way we can make them see that it just not cutting it anymore is with our wallots, stop buying stupid cockpit items, and stop buying mechs that dont need to be made.

Nicks job is basically spitting in our faces anymore.

It is impossible that not one talented programmer has enough talent to lend a helping hand in getting content created and published more likely this company has that bogus hiring now option but if you were in fact to walk in they would find a reason you cant get the job. They dont want to spread money around even for the game's sake. They dont care about the game they care about their wallets more than anything else it's quite clear.