52 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

Pygar, on 21 May 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

A game where 90 something percent of your choices for mechs and gear are irrelevant because of Cataphract 3D is a similarly bad game.

I agree - but at least there's no pay wall between me and that Cataphract for 1 - 5 months.

[Mcgral18]

Artgathan, on 21 May 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I agree - but at least there's no pay wall between me and that Cataphract for 1 - 5 months.

With their UACs, clans are at a big FLD disadvantage. LBx series might have a solid slug, or also be burst.

Their best poptart at release will be the Thor, which will be able to mount the standard 30 pt PP FLD alpha, but armor may or may not be a problem depending on their implementation.
IS wins at poptarting and FLD. The only thing Clans might have is overwhelming spread firepower. Hard to tell if it will beat the FLD.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 May 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Pygar]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

With their UACs, clans are at a big FLD disadvantage. LBx series might have a solid slug, or also be burst.

Their best poptart at release will be the Thor, which will be able to mount the standard 30 pt PP FLD alpha, but armor may or may not be a problem depending on their implementation.
IS wins at poptarting and FLD. The only thing Clans might have is overwhelming spread firepower. Hard to tell if it will beat the FLD.

The way I see it, either the UAC20 is going to be very overpowered because it does twice the damage of an AC20 in roughly the same amount of time (like it very technically should), or they are going to water it down so bad that any of the Clan cannons that aren't UAC20 will be worthless....because they are all getting the same mechanic. (Yet again....Damned if they do, Damned if they don't)

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Pygar, on 21 May 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

The way I see it, either the UAC20 is going to be very overpowered because it does twice the damage of an AC20 in roughly the same amount of time (like it very technically should), or they are going to water it down so bad that any of the Clan cannons that aren't UAC20 will be worthless....because they are all getting the same mechanic.

Well, it's going to be around the effectiveness of 4 AC5s fire quickly after one another. Although it's actually 5 shots doing 4 damage, this is a close enough relation.

So, it's still going to hurt. Although the burst length is still unknown, as well as the jam chance. Both very important attributes. On top of if the burst length is getting included in the cooldown, or the same issues with the LL and gauss having over 4 second cooldown compared to everything else.

Too many unknowns to make an accurate assumption.

[Pygar]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Well, it's going to be around the effectiveness of 4 AC5s fire quickly after one another. Although it's actually 5 shots doing 4 damage, this is a close enough relation.

So, it's still going to hurt. Although the burst length is still unknown, as well as the jam chance. Both very important attributes. On top of if the burst length is getting included in the cooldown, or the same issues with the LL and gauss having over 4 second cooldown compared to everything else.

Too many unknowns to make an accurate assumption.

The burst length has to be short enough so that the weapon can't overflow it's own recycle time, and simultaneously has to be fast enough so that 2 IS-UAC5 can't outperform it. (Barring weapon jams, 2 IS UAC5s can spit out 4-8 5 damage bullets pretty fast already.) If the C-UAC20 is shooting so slow that 2x IS-UAC can possibly out gun it, or at least kind of keep pace... then where does that leave C-UAC5s?

So yeah, I'm predicting that either UAC20 fires so fast that "Damage Over Time" is not really that big of a nerf to them, or the other smaller Clan cannons getting the same mechanic are going to be mostly useless. (And that's without even factoring in how knockback/camera shake is supposed to work for them.)

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 11:16 AM.

[Dymlos2003]

So some one started this rumor and people believed it. Oi vey what people do to spin anything into a negative point.

[Vassago Rain]

Dymlos2003, on 21 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

So some one started this rumor and people believed it. Oi vey what people do to spin anything into a negative point.

What rumor?

[Dymlos2003]

Vassago Rain, on 21 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

What rumor?

That this is how clrms will work.

[Mcgral18]

Dymlos2003, on 21 May 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

That this is how clrms will work.

They confirmed it in the announcements....

Although it only does this in the min range, not from 1000M.

[Dymlos2003]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

They confirmed it in the announcements....

Although it only does this in the min range, not from 1000M.

No duh. People think the latter

[Pygar]

Dymlos2003, on 21 May 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

That this is how clrms will work.

You can go read how they are proposed to work....minus that now there's a chance that they will be doing less damage per missile. (I don't think it was about the "reverse falloff" mechanic...it's because C-LRMs weigh half as much, and PGI doesn't know how to change that- and regardless of how many people think LRMs are "meh" weapons at best right now, every other day somebody gets totally owned by them in a PUG match and comes here to complain about it.)

LRMs are very much not the only issue that will probably be problematic for the upcoming Clan invasion, and I'm starting to think more and more that PGI trying to nerf the Clans doesn't really solve anything, it just creates more problems.

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 21 May 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

PGI has stated that they don't think balance by numbers is viable. I cannot recall if it was an implementation issue or a balance issue (I think it was a matter of balance), but either way 10v12 or 5v8 or whatever was adjudged as being unworkable.

I'd have to agree with PGI here...matchmaking for 12 vs 12 IS mechs is evidently unworkable.

[Wolfways]

Hillslam, on 21 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Been in BT since it was released in ziplock baggies. Before most of you were born.

Nerfing the clans is the one thing PGI is doing right in a 1-customer-per-mech title.

If this were a top down title where everyone controlled a lance or company of mechs then fine make one set of units more powerful then the other and balance by numbers.

but when every paying customer is sitting in one and just one mech, and the ONLY thing they get to do is shoot other paying customers sitting in other mechs, then, well, whenever I hear some Clanner bleating about how they're not going to get uber gear I say:
"clan mechs for everyone!"

"mix tech everywhere"

because F**K you if you think I'm going to pay to play against boss enemies in ANYTHING but a PVE environment.

PVP ? N.O.P.E.

Grow your larping epeen elsewhere. How about you earn your wins? shoot straight, drive right, earn it.

whining advantage seeking mouth breathers......

On the other hand, some people are actually team players...in this supposedly team-based game.

[Pygar]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 May 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

I'd have to agree with PGI here...matchmaking for 12 vs 12 IS mechs is evidently unworkable.

Pitting IS directly versus Clan makes the balance issues between the two stand out even more, so PGI is hoping that having the two right alongside each other helps both still have a role even if one or the other is more powerful at certain things. And yeah, they also have enough problems with matchmaker already...given what has happened with 3/3/3/3 in the last few weeks I don't see 5Clan vs 8IS queues coming anytime soon.

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Roland]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

With their UACs, clans are at a big FLD disadvantage. LBx series might have a solid slug, or also be burst.

Their best poptart at release will be the Thor, which will be able to mount the standard 30 pt PP FLD alpha, but armor may or may not be a problem depending on their implementation.
IS wins at poptarting and FLD. The only thing Clans might have is overwhelming spread firepower. Hard to tell if it will beat the FLD.

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Clans have huge advantages in pretty much every possible facet of combat in battletech.

Here are the weapons the clans have that can do precision damage:
1) UAC's which weigh less than their IS counterparts (although, you may be referring to some statement that PGI said they would make these burst weapons or something? Whatever.)
2) LBX with slug rounds, which not only weigh less, but are also smaller than the IS AC's.
3) The ERPPC, which does 15 damage (As much as a gauss rifle), for only 6 tons, and only 2 slots.
4) The Clan Gauss, which weighs only 12 tons and takes only 6 slots.

I mean, hell, the clan PPC and Gauss alone are pretty much devastating... especially when you couple them with the additional critical space that comes with all of the clans' technology being so much more compact (2 slot DHS, half size endosteel and ferro, smaller XL engines, etc.)

[Mcgral18]

Roland, on 21 May 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Clans have huge advantages in pretty much every possible facet of combat in battletech.

Here are the weapons the clans have that can do precision damage:
1) UAC's which weigh less than their IS counterparts (although, you may be referring to some statement that PGI said they would make these burst weapons or something? Whatever.)
2) LBX with slug rounds, which not only weigh less, but are also smaller than the IS AC's.
3) The ERPPC, which does 15 damage (As much as a gauss rifle), for only 6 tons, and only 2 slots.
4) The Clan Gauss, which weighs only 12 tons and takes only 6 slots.

I mean, hell, the clan PPC and Gauss alone are pretty much devastating... especially when you couple them with the additional critical space that comes with all of the clans' technology being so much more compact (2 slot DHS, half size endosteel and ferro, smaller XL engines, etc.)

And the 2PPC 2 AC5 Jaegermechs and K2s are not the most fearsome mechs. Jump jets are a big plus to the FLD. Nova and Thor can mount 2 PPCs (Or a gauss+PPC for the Thor) but running IS ERPPCs is pretty hot even with as many heatsinks as you can bring.

ERPPCs will be HOT. Have they comfirmed the LBx will be a single solid slug? The've stated switchable ammo.

Gauss, I imagine it's going to be about the same, which is powerful enough.

The UAC burst could ruin the weapon, make it viable or if it isn't long enough it could indeed make it obscenely powerful. Will the UAC20 have the same 20% jam chance, or 80%?

Less than a month until we find out.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 May 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[Pygar]

Roland, on 21 May 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Clans have huge advantages in pretty much every possible facet of combat in battletech.

Here are the weapons the clans have that can do precision damage:
1) UAC's which weigh less than their IS counterparts (although, you may be referring to some statement that PGI said they would make these burst weapons or something? Whatever.)
2) LBX with slug rounds, which not only weigh less, but are also smaller than the IS AC's.
3) The ERPPC, which does 15 damage (As much as a gauss rifle), for only 6 tons, and only 2 slots.
4) The Clan Gauss, which weighs only 12 tons and takes only 6 slots.

I mean, hell, the clan PPC and Gauss alone are pretty much devastating... especially when you couple them with the additional critical space that comes with all of the clans' technology being so much more compact (2 slot DHS, half size endosteel and ferro, smaller XL engines, etc.)

They have promised many nerfs to keep the two lines of tech in balance, and from what I read the Gauss rifle and the PPC are the only two Clan weapons that will possibly have FLD/pinpoint damage. (Gauss Rifles are actually one of the more "balanced" comparisons between the two lines of tech, and PPCs are not guaranteed to keep their full TT damage) Streak SRMs, LRMs and at least Clan UACs if not LBX cannons as well will be getting damage over time mechanics to help keep it so that Clan weapons will have more damage, but not exactly be "over powered".

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Dymlos2003, on 21 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

So some one started this rumor and people believed it. Oi vey what people do to spin anything into a negative point.

Vassago Rain, on 21 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

What rumor?

This rumor?

http://mwomercs.com/...e-bug-may-20th/

[Bishop Steiner]

oldradagast, on 21 May 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Basically.

At best, they don't know what they are doing since they somehow confused Clan missiles with IS missiles AND pushed that code out the door without anyone noticing. That's bad from a QA perspective... but they also fail on a design perspective because missiles as they are now post-patch are simply useless. If this is a preview of Clan missiles, they will be unusable paperweights.

actually, yeah. Pretty obvious the missiles have some universal code that our DevOverlords overlooked, and when they added the Clan Code for testing purpose, they added the scaling globally. One would think the first step would be.... to undo the Clan Missile Code that was added?

Maybe? (Then test it on private server until you figure out what is wrong...without leaving your player base totally borked in the interim.)

Just saying.

[Pygar]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 May 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

This rumor?

http://mwomercs.com/...e-bug-may-20th/

True or not, it doesn't change the fact that I think people should be talking more about the Clans right now, because one way or another, the "Clan Invasion" is going to be a problem... I don't see how PGI can possibly make a "one size fits all" solution to this and actually make everybody happy. (And I actually think that nerfing the Clans to the point that they actually might be DOA is a bigger mistake than letting Clans be OP)

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 12:24 PM.