42 replies to this topic

[Krinkov]

Lets assume we are both of equal skill and it takes us .25 seconds to line up a shot on each others left side torso. I'm using an ER PPC and AC20. You are using 4 large lasers. We see each other at a distance of 200 meters and take the .25 seconds to aim and begin firing. Immediately after the .25 seconds of aiming I begin to torso twist because both my weapons fire their payload instantly. You are hit in the left side torso for 30 damage because you must keep your beam on me to do damage. I am hit in the left side torso, center torso, right side torso and finally the right arm. This process repeats until your left side torso is destroyed and you are dead while I have taken moderate damage over my entire mech and live to kill your teammates.

This is assuming you have an XL engine. If I think you are running a standard the process would be nearly the same except I would take a little more damage since I would need to burn through your center torso. Assuming equal skill, I win in every scenario. If you are killing meta mechs in a laser boat, it just means you are more skilled than them. If you meet your meta match while boating lasers, he will kill you.

Edit: I should also add, we are not disparaging your skill with lasers. We are just saying the difference between ballistics and lasers is so great, you can't beat them when all factors are equal.

Edited by Krinkov, 21 May 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Pottertown]

Krinkov, on 21 May 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

Lets assume we are both of equal skill and it takes us .25 seconds to line up a shot on each others left side torso. I'm using an ER PPC and AC20. You are using 4 large lasers. We see each other at a distance of 200 meters and take the .25 seconds to aim and begin firing. Immediately after the .25 seconds of aiming I begin to torso twist because both my weapons fire their payload instantly. You are hit in the left side torso for 30 damage because you must keep your beam on me to do damage. I am hit in the left side torso, center torso, right side torso and finally the right arm. This process repeats until your left side torso is destroyed and you are dead while I have taken moderate damage over my entire mech and live to kill your teammates.

This is assuming you have an XL engine. If I think you are running a standard the process would be nearly the same except I would take a little more damage since I would need to burn through your center torso. Assuming equal skill, I win in every scenario. If you are killing meta mechs in a laser boat, it just means you are more skilled than them. If you meet your meta match while boating lasers, he will kill you.

Edit: I should also add, we are not disparaging your skill with lasers. We are just saying the difference between ballistics and lasers is so great, you can't beat them when all factors are equal.

Simple, in this situation I don't fire at your torso. I'll take your arm out. It won't take more than 2 bursts. By that point in time you'll likely have disengaged, or the battle dynamics will have changed. I don't stand toe-to-toe and have a DPS off at 200m if it can be avoided. That takes any level of gameplay or skill out of the equation.

In your situation i'd cut rug and put some distance between myself and your ac20 while keeping up transverse. ac20 rounds seem to fly slower so you can usually get a first shot miss with a quick move. I'd also have a look and see where the ac20 is located, that's my target.

I suppose if you're all about breaking down the numbers, sure, whatever has the MAX possible DPS/HPS ratio will win with no other variables. But I routinely stomp through AC/PPC opponents and I don't think that they're all noobs. I have a feeling it's because of this mentality. There's so many different ways to play, and if you come up against someone with a tough strategy for your build/weapon choice then you need to rethink your approach rather than complain that your weapons aren't as good.

I feel that the gameplay options lasers present are one of the benefits to using them and that's one which AC's and PPC's don't enjoy. I also feel that the discrepancy isn't that big, it's simply that you need to play in a totally different way if you're going to even the playing field. I don't want some big artificial bump in laser effectiveness. I could stand a bit less heat penalty that's for sure. But i'm good otherwise.

[Thorqemada]

I have not read it yet:
In MWO Laser do usualy average at ~ 55% of heir nominal damage - compare that with ACs, PPCs, Gauss that do average at ~100% of their nominal damage per hit

Its somewhat less bad as Laser have a ~25% better Hit rate - on the other side Laser be very bad at critting damage while the AC20 is the god of critting damage.

That means that all the DPS math is wrong when you only use the nominal values and even if you use the statistical value it still does not give a good picture of the gameplay reality of MWO.

Edited by Thorqemada, 21 May 2014 - 10:47 PM.

[Pottertown]

DEMAX51, on 21 May 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong man, I like lasers too. The 6ML Jenner is still my favorite build to play. But...



That's just patently wrong, at least at higher skill levels. Dual gauss & PPC/AC5 snipers can knock off components left and right, and kill Lights in one shot. All it takes is to expose yourself for a fraction of a second and you're dead.



And that's why I said if you can aim with ballistics as well as you can aim with lasers they're better. If you need the burn-time of lasers to get your shots on target more reliably, that's a different story.



Again, lasers are only "far more consistent" if your aim with ballistics isn't as reliable. Once you're practiced, leading targets isn't very hard at all, and all weapons suffer from some hit-reg issues due to ping difference.



Yeah, you can still torso twist with lasers, but you can torso twist sooner with ballistics. You only need about 1/10 of a second to fire off a shell from a ballistic, giving you an extra .9 seconds to twist/mitigate your damage over lasers.



Might be a difference in our playstyle - maybe you spam your fire more than I do - but I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've run out of ammo, and I almost always have at least 2 medium lasers to use when that happens.


That is entirely dependent on the variant you use, not whether you use ballistics or lasers.


I'm not saying you're stupid, and you may well be playing your lasers to their strengths, but there are just more strengths to ballistics.


Lasers aren't inherently bad, they're just not as good.

Hmm, not sure how to quote specific parts. Anyway.

With regards to ammo. There's a few issues for me.
1) Ammo storage eats up slots that could be used for more engine or tactical upgrades.
2) It's hard to get past 600 or so damage with most ballistic configurations without running low. And in a battle that long, count on some damage, and either a lost weapon or lost ammo. Which hurts even more.
3) The big guns require ammo storage in a different body part. This by default means that there are now two body parts which could kill that weapon as opposed to one. The other option is to put in a CASE and load it all in one. That's all your eggs in one basket, and I don't like that either.

I've ran out of ammo enough times for it to matter. It's always a long battle and there's usually not very many mechs left, and the ones who are, are usually hurt. This is where having full firepower is the most effective. If you're up against 3 hurt mechs that are all low on ammo, having 4LL and 2ML that are perfectly functioning is a death sentence for anyone else on the field.

This is partly playstyle related. I prefer speed/agility over top end firepower. If you're smart you shouldn't have to deal with a firing squad.

Also, don't get me wrong, i'm not saying lasers are better, or as good in all situations. But I think that playing them for what they are can be just as effective in most situations.

[YueFei]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Simple, in this situation I don't fire at your torso. I'll take your arm out. It won't take more than 2 bursts. By that point in time you'll likely have disengaged, or the battle dynamics will have changed. I don't stand toe-to-toe and have a DPS off at 200m if it can be avoided. That takes any level of gameplay or skill out of the equation.

You cannot take his arm out first in the scenario he outlined, because you will not get the full laser burn onto that arm since he will twist during your shot. He will get the full damage into one of your body parts, and your return shot will spray all over as he twists. He is assuming equal skill and simultaneous shots.

If you can pin-point target enemy components with your lasers, it is because your opponents are staring at you instead of twisting.

As you fight people who are really good at blocking PPC+AC shots, people who routinely must demonstrate good defensive piloting against the instantaneous damage application of PPC+AC in order to survive, where the margin for error is mere milliseconds, you will find that they are even better at defending against laser shots, where they have 1000 milliseconds to move.

You can somewhat compensate if you manage to maneuver into a position from which your opponent cannot get into cover, let him shoot first and block it with your arm, and then return fire. But that scenario does not assume equal skill, it assumes you have outmaneuvered your foe. And even in such an exchange it pretty much just puts you on equal ground: he will shoot your arm, and then when you fire at him he will twist and tank your laser damage on his arm.

[Krinkov]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Simple, in this situation I don't fire at your torso. I'll take your arm out. It won't take more than 2 bursts. By that point in time you'll likely have disengaged, or the battle dynamics will have changed. I don't stand toe-to-toe and have a DPS off at 200m if it can be avoided. That takes any level of gameplay or skill out of the equation.

You obviously aren't facing competent opponents if you think taking an arm off a mech is a good decision. You will have just wasted damage and heat on destroying a shield arm. What you seem to be missing in this discussion is a skilled player will not let lasers hit any part of his torso he doesn't want you to. Lasers hit where the defender wants them to hit while front loaded weapons hit where the attacker wants them to hit. Also, any mech carrying 6 large lasers won't be out running a meta victor cruising at 70+. You can't rely solely on better skill when talking about top tier games. Everyone is at nearly the same skill level and who wins comes down to what weapon is the best. That is what playing to the meta means. PPC + AC is the best combo in the game, period.

[Pottertown]

Krinkov, on 21 May 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

You obviously aren't facing competent opponents if you think taking an arm off a mech is a good decision. You will have just wasted damage and heat on destroying a shield arm. What you seem to be missing in this discussion is a skilled player will not let lasers hit any part of his torso he doesn't want you to. Lasers hit where the defender wants them to hit while front loaded weapons hit where the attacker wants them to hit. Also, any mech carrying 6 large lasers won't be out running a meta victor cruising at 70+. You can't rely solely on better skill when talking about top tier games. Everyone is at nearly the same skill level and who wins comes down to what weapon is the best. That is what playing to the meta means. PPC + AC is the best combo in the game, period.

I guess we'll have to see on the battlefield.

[Krinkov]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I guess we'll have to see on the battlefield.

I should have known better than to engage a troll. I'm done wasting time indulging your humor.

[Pottertown]

Krinkov, on 21 May 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

I should have known better than to engage a troll. I'm done wasting time indulging your humor.

How else would we settle a discussion based on opinions about a game that's based on giant walking tanks shooting each other?

[Turist0AT]

What lasers are we talking about?

[DEMAX51]

I know we've covered the finer points of FLD, but I'd like to illustrate just how big of a difference it makes. Here are some numbers from my own weapon stats page:

Medium Laser
Damage per hit: 2.89

AC5
Damage per hit: 5.14

Both are 5 damage weapons, and I assure you, I'm very good with my lasers.

But because lasers are DOT, have significantly less range, and do less crit damage, my MLs do just over half their potential damage.

On the other hand, because of FLD, greater effective range, and increased crit damage, my AC5 does more than its listed damage.

[KAT Ayanami]

Pottertown, on 21 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Nothing. I don't understand all the complaining about anything that's not a PPC or AC. I always have some lasers, and my main/fave build is laser only with which, frankly, I destroy everyone with. I'm 1.5 w/l and over 2.0 k/d. Routinely top the charts, and a few times a night I finish a match laughing at how much damage I've caused and kills I've gotten.

Can you guys explain in some rational and calm way what the issue is? Because it honestly feels like so many people complain for the sake of complaining. I'm totally engrossed in the game and think it's awesome. I played it as a kid and i'm jacked that it's so good now.

If you hate it THAT much, do yourself, and those of us who do like the game a favor, and do something else. The forums are not even readable because of the incessant whining, moaning and complaining. It really is embarrassing that you keep banging your head against the same wall without making a change if you guys really can't stand the game...

That is all.

First of all. Good for you for believing you are a great player. See how much we care.

Second, if the people that complain on the forums stopped playing, you would not have more than 100 players total in the game.

[Aresye]

I think there definitely is something wrong with lasers.

The other day while running a 3 ER Large build, I was trailing an Atlas that apparently didn't care that somebody was shooting him in the back.

While he was walking towards another teammate of mine (in a straight line too), I alpha'd my lasers 3 times at a range less than 80m right into his back CT armor.

It turned cherry red, so I alpha'd a 4th time. It turned a darker cherry red. At this point he reached my teammate and began circling around, so now I had to work on his front armor. I eventually killed him, but I couldn't save my teammate.

An alpha with 3 ER Large is 27 damage. Multiply that by 4 for 108 damage total to the rear CT.

Sure, I potentially could have slipped off the rear CT hitbox for a couple milliseconds, but even with that under consideration, that's still 70-80 damage being dealt to the rear CT itself, and I'm sure no mech in this entire game has THAT much armor.

[Mcgral18]

Aresye, on 21 May 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Sure, I potentially could have slipped off the rear CT hitbox for a couple milliseconds, but even with that under consideration, that's still 70-80 damage being dealt to the rear CT itself, and I'm sure no mech in this entire game has THAT much armor.

62 IS plus whatever armor he had there.

So, very possible he had 20, which makes a total of 82.

[Pjwned]

Ideally, there isn't really anything wrong with lasers, it's just that pinpoint damage from other weapons is too strong most of the time.

If more weapons spread their damage out like lasers (except to a lesser extent I suppose) then a number of problems with the game would be alleviated, and if you did want real pinpoint damage then you'd have to load up a gauss rifle (or 2) even though it's the heaviest weapon in the game and is prone to exploding.

Edited by Pjwned, 21 May 2014 - 05:04 PM.

[Aresye]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

62 IS plus whatever armor he had there.

So, very possible he had 20, which makes a total of 82.

I'm assuming by IS you mean internal structure? Does the Atlas really have more than double it's actual armor for its internal structure?

[DEMAX51]

Aresye, on 21 May 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

I'm assuming by IS you mean internal structure? Does the Atlas really have more than double it's actual armor for its internal structure?

No, it is exactly half. The total armor an Atlas can put on its CT (both front and rear) is 124. Internal structure HP is always half the max possible armor for each component, thus 62 for the Atlas' CT.

Edited by DEMAX51, 21 May 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[YueFei]

Aresye, on 21 May 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

I'm assuming by IS you mean internal structure? Does the Atlas really have more than double it's actual armor for its internal structure?

Yeah he means Internal Structure hitpoints. The IS hitpoints for a location is always the max possible armor divided by 2.

[Koniks]

Aresye, on 21 May 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

I'm assuming by IS you mean internal structure? Does the Atlas really have more than double it's actual armor for its internal structure?

Internal Structure is equal to half of the maximum amount of armor for a component. A 100 ton mech has 62 points in its CT.

http://mwo.gamepedia...ernal_Structure

[Bacl]

The major preoblem with lasers and energy in general play on these facts:

AC:
Negative;
-heavy
-requires ammo
-require lots or critical space

Positive:
-dont heat up
-long range
-pin point
-fast realod time
-screen shake and smoke on target
-harder to locate the shooter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lasers
Negative
-lot of heat
-short range compared to AC
-damage over time so spread while moving
-reveals your position
-all affected by ghost heat
-depends a lot on heatsinks

Positive:
-no ammos so infinite use accurate
-light
-low critical slot requirement

I ran tests on various mechs on Smurfy mech lab and lasers can never matche the dps of AC and even worse when they almost reach it they ended up being way heavier when you count all the heatsinks to keep them cool and neerly get the Ac DPS.
Also a mech completly filled with DHS shoulnt gather heat when firing a single large or even medium laser, why is it the case? Shooting them in alpha thats a no brainer and even in batteries but why a single laser make me gather up heat? This is the reason lasers are simply support weapons when your out of ammo because as a primary weapon you wont have the bang for your buck.

P.S. I love lasers, specially the ERLL but even tho i like to play them and i can chain them on someone for a descent amount of time, i m always dissapointed by the overall damage i do in a game.

Edited by Bacl, 22 May 2014 - 12:30 PM.