250 replies to this topic

[Spades Kincaid]

Calamus, on 23 May 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

The difference between need and desire is too long an argument to have over the net. Smarter people than both of us have spent millennia arguing the same thing, so I'm going to agree to disagree on that point.

So instead, look at the Bentham quote that I paraphrased. And add this one to it. (I looked this one up so I didn't have to parapharase it too)

"The greatest happiness to the greatest number is the foundation of morals and legislation"

Neither of these mention needs. Only the fictional character did.

And I guarantee you that PGI created their "delay of game" section of the EULA with these exact sentiments in mind. Although, I doubt they looked him up.

Yet those words have definitions. And your wish to play that same mech again falls quite clearly to the side of desire, not need. It's not too long an argument, there just isn't much of one. Pulling imaginary 'smarter people' into things as some form of support to you trying to assert it as a need is pointless conjuring. I can just as easily say if they are really that smart then they'd scoff at your attempt to label it as such.

Which desire is the greater 'good', or which desire more greatly impinges on another's happiness -are- much more subjective and open to argument or debate.

Greater good or greater happiness are slippery slopes. At what point do the desires of one outweigh the desires of the other? When it's 7-4? 6-2? 4-1? If it's 10-5 should the 5 just stop playing and die? Is the desire to play a specific mech a greater good when there are others available to play, than the desire to continue playing the current match? Is trying to force another player to quit when they are not preventing you from playing a greater good, ever?

That being the case, it still boils down to the same simple fact. Only one side is trying to dictate the choice of the other. Only one side is actively trying to impinge upon the other's enjoyment by demanding they stop playing the match. The options available are set forth by the rules of the game, not the player.

The nearest to a definitive right or wrong which can be stated is if both parties are allowing each other to freely exercise those options set forth by the game which they are both willingly participating in.

[Calamus]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 May 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Why on earth should I adjust the perspective I believe is the right one to have?

Every redshirt in the game is trying to kill my avatar hence Me. please get your perspective correct sir.

Game objectives
Capture base
Kill enemy! Now we can dispute the thesaurus if you want, but it comes down to take stuff kill stuff.

Wow. I'm starting to get worried. You're the second person in this thread to show that they are having trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy.

Unless you're all just taking the piss. Then I'll look a bit goofy. Honestly, I hope I do end up looking goofy on this one.

[Odins Fist]

Participation is a grey area...

Several times I was harrassed by my own team in chat while running a Spider and was the last Mech standing against 3 or 4 wounded enemy Mechs..

They would type in things like "Don't waste my time" or "Useless waste of a Mech, just end it" etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.......

Granted many of the times it didn't work out, doing the bob and weave though terrain to try and pick them off at distance, BUT there were many times I managed to win the match with one ER-LL no arms and one leg remaining, and the people that were CRYING like little children actually stuck around to watch the end of the match, BUT disconnected with nothing smarmy to say..

I mean there was one match in my Spider 5k where I still had some Machine gun ammo left, and there was a wounded Cataphract 3d and a Victor with a side torso bright red, no armor on Caustic..

I ran around picking away with my ER-LL, listened to enough inane chatter from my team that was all dead, and finally I stopped behind a ridge and said "Ok you want me to move in..?? Here goes!"

I was no armor ct bright red, 2 machine guns 120 rounds, one ER-LL, one shot would kill me. I did the bob and weave, closed the distance to where those 2 enemy mechs were huddled together, and jump jet over them firing. They freaked a little and split by about 120 meters.

I ran right in between them, fired my ER-LL at the Phract, twisted and fired my 2 machine guns at the Victor... The Victor goes down due to XL getting critted, BUT my name didn't pop up when it said who killed him, his buddy in the Phract Team Killed him...

I disappeared behind the ridge of the Caldera, but lost my remaining arm to the Phract getting there.
The chat exploded in LOLs..
I then proceeded to pick away at the Phract and killed him.. Timer was at 12 secs left.

Mind you I had only one kill before that happened, less then 250 damage before the final 6 minutes it took to do this, and my team was furious at me for not doing better. At the end they only had praise.

Participation is subjective to the situation... I also had matches where my team was rolled and I had no chance against 7 enemy Mechs, got yelled at in chat, and decided to just end the match so they wouldn't have to wait..

There are so many possible outcomes, you just have to...
"Know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to ER-LL them in the side torso, know when to run" - Spider Pilot Kenny Rogers

Edited by Odins Fist, 23 May 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Fut]

Calamus, on 23 May 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

And again. When someone resorts to name calling it's the same as waiving a white flag.

Well, that's just not true. You were the first to try and distinguish between want and need (need and desire). You're the one who cut and paste internet dictionary definitions of them. You repeatedly tried to bait me into debating it with you. I spent at least the next 2-3 replies to you attempting to NOT debate it with you. I believe the first thing I said was that I agree to disagree on that point. Stop things up.

Christ, just because you don't like me, or can't diffuse my opinion doesn't mean that you have to make things up, and start calling me names.

Pompous isn't actually a name, it's an adjective.

Also, I wasn't the first to try and distinguish between want and need - there's no distinguishing required, as both words have clear meanings... See Spade's first paragraph below.

Spades Kincaid, on 23 May 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Yet those words have definitions. And your wish to play that same mech again falls quite clearly to the side of desire, not need. It's not too long an argument, there just isn't much of one. Pulling imaginary 'smarter people' into things as some form of support to you trying to assert it as a need is pointless conjuring. I can just as easily say if they are really that smart then they'd scoff at your attempt to label it as such.

Very well worded.

Spades Kincaid, on 23 May 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

That being the case, it still boils down to the same simple fact. Only one side is trying to dictate the choice of the other. Only one side is actively trying to impinge upon the other's enjoyment by demanding they stop playing the match. The options available are set forth by the rules of the game, not the player.

The nearest to a definitive right or wrong which can be stated is if both parties are allowing each other to freely exercise those options set forth by the game which they are both willingly participating in.

This is the end of the discussion.

One side of the "argument" wants the other side to conform to their wants. Clearly this side is in the wrong.

[Joseph Mallan]

Calamus, on 23 May 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Wow. I'm starting to get worried. You're the second person in this thread to show that they are having trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy.

Unless you're all just taking the piss. Then I'll look a bit goofy. Honestly, I hope I do end up looking goofy on this one.

Calamus, on 23 May 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Agree to disagree.

You answered that for yourself

[Ngamok]

Fut, on 23 May 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

During a Marathon, once the first batch of runners cross the finish line, should the other runners just up and quit or should they finish the race?

They should clearly run out of bounds into the crowd or keep hitting over ride till they fall over from exhaustion or heat stroke.

[Mystere]

Harathan, on 23 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Those contraints were clarified; if you engaged in the match up to the point of being the last man, anything you do after that point does not count as non-participation.

Doomstryke, on 23 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

This is questionable, I've had chats with pgi in game about this and they said it was reportable. I'd love to see an office post or update to the rules that clearly explain this for skrimish. For any other mode again I don't care since there are ways to end the match regardless of last player outcome

I am not going to look for the original posts. But, I did see that clarification some time ago from at least 2 mods and I dared to test that in game. The fact that I am telling you right now that I have never been sanctioned whatsoever should be proof of that.

Besides, if you do not believe me, you can always report the "offending" player and see what happens. I can assure you nothing will except for wasted electrons.

[Fut]

GM Reppu, on 23 May 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

As requested, some clarification on the zero-participation rule.

You can find all the rules here: http://mwomercs.com/...ploitsgriefing/

The zero-participation rule is very much a "spirit of the game" rule.

Here's a couple common examples but this is by no means an exhaustive list of what can come up.

Situations that do result in sanctions include:
-Joining matches then going AFK to "grind" c-bills and xp
-Same as above but with a suicide or disconnect

Both of the above are pretty easy for us to spot when reported.

Beyond that things tend to fall under grey areas where we have to balance "valid tactic" versus "potential troll/griefer" and there's no clear cut result.

So trying to survive when you're the last Mech left, even if you're just trying to evade, is perfectly acceptable as long as you've "participated" in the match.

[Calamus]

Ok, well, I have a client coming in right now, so I have to leave.

I've said my piece. You can accept my arguments for what they are, or reject them. I suspect that some of you will reject them, and ultimately I can't force you to accept my arguments.

But those of you thinking this is real... Get some help.

[Mystere]

By the Gods I did not know that one had already gone down from Olympus to this very thread.

[Fut]

Calamus, on 23 May 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

But those of you thinking this is real... Get some help.

It's more enjoyable for me to try and immerse myself into the game as much as possible, playing MWO like it's "Real" is when it becomes the most fun.
Sort of how Horror movies are more enjoyable when you watch them late at night, in the dark.

Edited by Fut, 23 May 2014 - 10:14 AM.