185 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Merchant, on 22 May 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

How about a nice, simple system instead of a complicated one?
Complicated - ECM-Stealth thus requiring, what, 3-6 counters? (Now)
Simple - No ECM-Stealth, thus no need for all those counters and some systems can be restored to what they were.

please read this

6 hexes is the radius of interference of ECM. As for removing stealth, fine. However, lock on take longer than 10 seconds. That would be a balanced modification, you'd have the ability to lock on to mechs under ECM cover, however it takes a long time to do so.

Merchant, on 22 May 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

No, we want them tied to the Command Console with the CC limited to Heavies and Assaults instead of everyone including Locusts carrying it.
CC gives an extra slot, let it be the ONLY slot for Strikes, if need be it can have a second so it carries one of each but no more.
That should be worth 3 tons and 1 mil C-Bills.

Commanders have used light mechs for command before. It wouldn't make sense to put the CC in only heavies and assaults, when even Commandos were used as command mechs on the field.

Tesunie, on 22 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Reasonable post on LRMs with ECM

You are correct, BAP doesn't increase lock on speed, just TGI, and Sensor range (25% stacks with Adv. Sensor Range modules)

As far as using 2 weapon groups, I use a similar set up. I still manage to hit the "3" key when I need to use TAG. Though to be honest 90% of my LRM boats don't have TAG on them.

As for ECM's role against LRMs, that is literally it's only purpose and job. It was built to counter Guided missiles. I keep using guided missiles, instead of LRMs, because the LRMs we have in MW:O aren't BT LRMs, these LRMs can get locks and work like Streaks, they are in fact Streak LRMs, not regular LRMs. Which means that unless your entire team is made up of BAP-free, TAG-free LRM-only boats with no back up weapons, you should always be able to shut down an ECM mech, and negate it's presence with little effort.


EDIT: Most of what Tesunie suggested for ECM re-design is reasonable btw.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 22 May 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Wildstreak]

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

please read this

6 hexes is the radius of interference of ECM. As for removing stealth, fine. However, lock on take longer than 10 seconds. That would be a balanced modification, you'd have the ability to lock on to mechs under ECM cover, however it takes a long time to do so.

Read it earlier today (or is it yesterday now?).
Not sure about the lock thing but I am willing to consider though when the tournament is over, I plan to start discussion on some weapon balance including LRMs and their locks..
When I said restore systems to what they were, an example would be how ECM used to counter BAP in MWO but then that changed when more counters for ECM were wanted. Same with NARC. PPC counter would no longer be needed.

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Commanders have used light mechs for command before. It wouldn't make sense to put the CC in only heavies and assaults, when even Commandos were used as command mechs on the field.

Check the first sentence here. Yes, Lights and Mediums have been Command Vehicles but the Command Console at that link adds more functions than Mechs carry by themselves plus a second person. Not the same as Dual Cockpit, DC does not have the extra Command & Control features CC has.

[Grayblue]

What a sick joke of a self serving post.

Carry a TAG? Is this a joke?

If I am tagging it, then that means I can see it. If I can see it, then why would I bother with TAG? I'll just kill it.

TAG does nothing for me, and I am not going to sacrifice my weapons and armor to carry one when I am already out of space to carry anything more.

So, why are you posting this? You just want us to TAG so you can sit back and score with lurm spamnng isn't it?

The problem with ECM is not that I cannot lock it.

The problem is the ECM in the game works like a total cloacking device to sensors which is NOT how ECM works.

Edited by Grayblue, 22 May 2014 - 11:03 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

However, lock on take longer than 10 seconds. That would be a balanced modification, you'd have the ability to lock on to mechs under ECM cover, however it takes a long time to do so.

Just to ensure there is no misconceptions, the current implementation of ECM already slows lock-on time and target gathering. Stealth is also stacked on top of that, so it's just not as noticeable.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 23 May 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Grayblue, on 22 May 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

What a sick joke of a self serving post.

Carry a TAG? Is this a joke?

If I am tagging it, then that means I can see it. If I can see it, then why would I bother with TAG? I'll just kill it.

TAG does nothing for me, and I am not going to sacrifice my weapons and armor to carry one when I am already out of space to carry anything more.

So, why are you posting this? You just want us to TAG so you can sit back and score with lurm spamnng isn't it?

The problem with ECM is not that I cannot lock it.

The problem is the ECM in the game works like a total cloacking device to sensors which is NOT how ECM works.

I would have Liked your post except for the TAG bit.
I carried a TAG on my LRM boats, it serves 3 functions.
1 - Briefly Tag an enemy I know is under ECM, maybe a few together, just a few seconds each. This generates blips on ally HUDs so they get an idea where enemies are.
2 - Allows LRMs to fire at targets under ECM. Would not need this if Stealth did not exist.
3 - Increases damage done.

If this page is still correct, there are several benefits, some just not noticed by some players.

StalaggtIKE, on 23 May 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Just to ensure there is no misconceptions, the current implementation of ECM already slows lock-on time and target gathering. Stealth is also stacked on top of that, so it's just not as noticeable.

Oh, I have noticed it. I have even noticed the following.
Take two enemies, one carrying ECM, one not. They are together both under ECM.
I TAG the non-carrying unit, it looks like I can get lock on normally. Maybe there is a difference compared to TAGging a unit not under ECM but I have not checked, it may be small. Point is it looks normal.
Now if I TAG his buddy carrying the ECM they are under, the Lock takes longer even with my benefits like Info Gathering. Sometimes I have switch to a non-ECM tagret then go back to the ECM unit just to get lock.

[Tesunie]

StalaggtIKE, on 23 May 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Just to ensure there is no misconceptions, the current implementation of ECM already slows lock-on time and target gathering. Stealth is also stacked on top of that, so it's just not as noticeable.

It's the staking of the two that can become the problem.

You know that donut of space before ECM shuts you down, where the target is targetable? You may target the ECM mech, but good luck getting a lock on it... (or when there are too many people near the ECM mech, and you can get a lock on anyway (a fairly new balance mechanic), good luck getting that lock. It takes a while.)

If it retained one feature of the other, it wouldn't be as bad. But retaining the slowed down missile locks with the cloak is a double penalty. Then it also delays target data gathering as well... (with the stealth cloak.)

This is the "over powered" section we normally refer to. It's the staking of different effects, one of which is not lore based (but I don't mind). The cloak is the part that isn't lore based, but is probably most needed into this game itself. However, it it's going to stealth cloak, then it could use to drop a lot of the other abilities it has to hinder lock ons and missile locks, and data gathering.

Basically, each part isn't the problem. It's everything has a whole package.

[Tesunie]

Merchant, on 23 May 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

benefits like Info Gathering.

Advanced Info Gathering does not increase lock on speed. All it does it increase the rate at which you gather your target's damage chart and weapons loadout. (Same with BAP's ability to increase target lock info. It's only making the data speed faster, not your missile locks.) This seems to be a common misconception.

Only things to (in some manner) increase the speed you gain a lock on with missiles are TAG, NARC and Artemis (to my knowledge).

[Flaming oblivion]

Tesunie, on 23 May 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

Advanced Info Gathering does not increase lock on speed. All it does it increase the rate at which you gather your target's damage chart and weapons loadout. (Same with BAP's ability to increase target lock info. It's only making the data speed faster, not your missile locks.) This seems to be a common misconception. Only things to (in some manner) increase the speed you gain a lock on with missiles are TAG, NARC and Artemis (to my knowledge).

I cant argue because I don't know for a fact but I got TIG last night and my ability to lock folks under ecm seemed to dramatically improve. More noticeable then the ability to lock people not jumping in and out of ecm protection.

[IraqiWalker]

StalaggtIKE, on 23 May 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Just to ensure there is no misconceptions, the current implementation of ECM already slows lock-on time and target gathering. Stealth is also stacked on top of that, so it's just not as noticeable.

Believe me, as an LRM boat I understand that part very well, But the lock delay is still within ~5 seconds~

Merchant, on 23 May 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Oh, I have noticed it. I have even noticed the following.
Take two enemies, one carrying ECM, one not. They are together both under ECM.
I TAG the non-carrying unit, it looks like I can get lock on normally. Maybe there is a difference compared to TAGging a unit not under ECM but I have not checked, it may be small. Point is it looks normal.
Now if I TAG his buddy carrying the ECM they are under, the Lock takes longer even with my benefits like Info Gathering. Sometimes I have switch to a non-ECM tagret then go back to the ECM unit just to get lock.

Target Info Gathering doesn't help with lock on acceleration, the only things that accelerate lock ons are TAG, Artemis, and NARC. two of them also completely negate ECM.

Tesunie, on 23 May 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Then it also delays target data gathering as well... (with the stealth cloak.)

That part I have not noticed. When I'm fighting ECM mechs under their bubble, my TGI (without the module) works just fine. I can't share the information with other mechs, but I see the damage charts and status of the mech quickly enough.

Flaming oblivion, on 23 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

I cant argue because I don't know for a fact but I got TIG last night and my ability to lock folks under ecm seemed to dramatically improve. More noticeable then the ability to lock people not jumping in and out of ecm protection.

Could be because people were countering ECM. TGI helps you see the status of locked on mechs much faster. So you see their paper doll, percentage of hull integrity, and which weapons are online/offline faster than normal, (about 2 seconds faster than standard sensors)

[mogs01gt]

JagdFlanker, on 22 May 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

sorry, ECM is a joke and anybody who thinks it's op is afraid of ghosts and the boogyman. i pilot LRM mechs with TAG almost exclusively and as soon as i spot any mech - ECM or no - they get a burst of TAG, they'r immediately targeted, and they get a swarm of LRMs pounded down their throat. combine that with target decay and even if they break contact they still get nailed
heck, you don't even need adv target range or BAP anymore if you'v got TAG - every single visible mech within 750m range is IMMEDIATELY targetable with TAG, and if you have SSRMs you combine that with target decay once you lock on you STAY locked on unless the target retreats. if the ECM-equipped target is maneuvering you keep giving it the occasional 'TAG paint' to keep it locked on - you are trying to keep the enemy in front of you so you can fire at it anyways, right?
i'm not saying that it's easy - it takes practice and skill to use TAG in all the situations you'l encounter, and of course it's going to take up one of your weapons mounts/groups (you can even group it with another weapon so when fire at the enemy you also TAG it, allowing you to target it or keep it targeted), but it is a HARD counter to ECM and if you don't use or don't want to use TAG or you use a mech that is unable to mount TAG, then you can't complain about ECM.
i'm sure this will turn into a 'passionate' topic regardless lol

So you have to expose your mech to counter ECM?? Yeah, totally balanced.....

[IraqiWalker]

mogs01gt, on 23 May 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

So you have to expose your mech to counter ECM?? Yeah, totally balanced.....

Of all the arguments to pick, you used the weakest? You have to expose your mech to shoot at anything, regardless of ECM. Unless you found a way to fire Ballistics and Energy weapons, and SRMs, and SSRMs through walls and without exposing yourself.

[mogs01gt]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Of all the arguments to pick, you used the weakest? You have to expose your mech to shoot at anything, regardless of ECM. Unless you found a way to fire Ballistics and Energy weapons, and SRMs, and SSRMs through walls and without exposing yourself.

You missed the entire point and I dont feel like explaining it to you. Everyone else already has..

[Wesxander]

ECM being over powered is from the same people that think ac 20's should shooting range 400 plus and doing full damage.
Fact is ac 20 should only be range 275 that's it not 300 10 damage etc etc...
ECM biggest strongest ability not rated here is causes certain 3rd party auto aimers fits. Regardless what you say I have seen guys who never miss no matter how hard the shot is suddenly can't at range 800 on an ecm mech shooting at them. It's as if their 3rd party program is having a fit not being able to see the target to auto aim for them....
LRM's should not using indirect fire the way they are but since it is being used that way ecm makes up for it some.
Ridiculous how the shooters will defend x2 and x3 range bonus and state that ECM AND LRMS are over powered we can't beat something that strong.

You want fix the biggest over powered bug in the game go after the guys that gave every weapon (lasers and cannons that is) in the game the ability shoot as far as LRMs for free. That's biggest op thing done in this game but the "Shooters" out there consider that op goody mandatory now not to be touched.

[Tesunie]

Flaming oblivion, on 23 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

I cant argue because I don't know for a fact but I got TIG last night and my ability to lock folks under ecm seemed to dramatically improve. More noticeable then the ability to lock people not jumping in and out of ecm protection.

As far as I know... I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that it works as I mentioned. If I am wrong, I would greatly like to see proof or a PGI (which I guess is proof) of how this works. (I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'd like to clarify it for myself so I don't continue to spread bad information, if I am wrong.)

[Wildstreak]

Tesunie, on 22 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

As an LRM user who runs with a 2 button mouse (left, right and a mouse wheel for zoom), I create my mechs to work with two weapon groups. As my designs often incorporate a mix of LRMs and a defensive close range grid, I do not often times have the button for TAG for a separate weapon grouping. This means I often times play LRMs without TAG.

Been using the same as your setup. I found the best way to build my LRM boats with Groups is this.
Group #3 & #4 - used from the keyboard by the same finger that hits the D key. I use both groups because sometimes I may hit the wrong one so using both fixes that problem. Typically I reserve this Grouping for weapons that lock (LRMs & Streaks) and sometimes SRMs.
Group #2 - Right Mouse, the less used weapon or TAG.
Group #1 - Left Mouse, main weapon used most. On LRM Boats, usually MLs setup or whatever.

Tesunie, on 23 May 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

Advanced Info Gathering does not increase lock on speed. All it does it increase the rate at which you gather your target's damage chart and weapons loadout. (Same with BAP's ability to increase target lock info. It's only making the data speed faster, not your missile locks.) This seems to be a common misconception.

Only things to (in some manner) increase the speed you gain a lock on with missiles are TAG, NARC and Artemis (to my knowledge).

OK, got that wrong but now remember why I always run TIG on LRM boats. Getting the paper doll of the target faster means I can pick the right target faster to rain on. I prefer that over the one that holds the target longer.

Flaming oblivion, on 23 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

I cant argue because I don't know for a fact but I got TIG last night and my ability to lock folks under ecm seemed to dramatically improve. More noticeable then the ability to lock people not jumping in and out of ecm protection.

You are the polar opposite of me. ECM Mechs take longer to lock even if I TAG them.

Wesxander, on 23 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

ECM being over powered is from the same people that think ac 20's should shooting range 400 plus and doing full damage.
Fact is ac 20 should only be range 275 that's it not 300 10 damage etc etc...
ECM biggest strongest ability not rated here is causes certain 3rd party auto aimers fits. Regardless what you say I have seen guys who never miss no matter how hard the shot is suddenly can't at range 800 on an ecm mech shooting at them. It's as if their 3rd party program is having a fit not being able to see the target to auto aim for them....
LRM's should not using indirect fire the way they are but since it is being used that way ecm makes up for it some.
Ridiculous how the shooters will defend x2 and x3 range bonus and state that ECM AND LRMS are over powered we can't beat something that strong.

You want fix the biggest over powered bug in the game go after the guys that gave every weapon (lasers and cannons that is) in the game the ability shoot as far as LRMs for free. That's biggest op thing done in this game but the "Shooters" out there consider that op goody mandatory now not to be touched.

- I say ECM is overpowered and ACs with 3x range should be changed to 2x among other changes, one would buff them as they should be but not range.
- Never heard about ECM vs auto-aimers/cheaters.
- If I had my way, I would have LRMs changed to similar from MW2 where Indirect Fire requires some skill.
- After the Tournament is over, I plan to open another discussion on Weapon Balance and there will be details to go over. Weapon Health, Pulse, range, etc.

[The Flying Gecko]

DodgerH2O, on 22 May 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Just going to repeat myself here:

OP does not mean automatically wins. It means that for the cost (2 crit slots, 1.5 tons) the item does too much. Do you have any thoughts on what other things you can do with 2 crits and 1.5 tons that is more powerful than ECM in the majority of instances?

Jump Jets.
But on that note almost every mech I have has one-or-the-other.

The most frustrating aspect of ECM - Team mates that either don't read the team chat, ignore it, or don't speak english.

The team moves around the map counter-clockwise, and so does the enemy team.
However, they are slightly faster, and have ECM.
I communicating enemy positions to my team mates "THEY ARE BEHIND YOU!! TURN AROUND!!!".
Unfortunately, they are locked into this counter-clockwise march, and if it isn't on the radar or in their current field of view, it may as well not exist.
The faster enemies then move in on the guy in the rear, and single him out. He turns around as to not get cored from behind, while the rest of the team continues the counter-clockwise forced march. Leaving him to battle 3-4 enemies alone. Rinse and repeat, as the enemy picks off my team one at a time.

Sometimes, I intentionally shoot my team mates in the back. I have to. It's the only way to get their attention.

If *I* am the guy in the rear in the above scenario, I know my team mates are just going to keep walking and leave me behind to die, (nothing changes with the above mentioned "THEY ARE BEHIND YOU!! TURN AROUND!!!" in team-chat) but just a 1/10 second of a medium laser to the rear armor of two or three team mates and they wake up, instantly start turning and realize I'm fighting off 3-4 lights by myself, a few hundred meters away. I've been in a number of matches that I would have surely lost, had I not shot my team mates in the back.

[Tesunie]

Merchant, on 23 May 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

Been using the same as your setup. I found the best way to build my LRM boats with Groups is this.
Group #3 & #4 - used from the keyboard by the same finger that hits the D key. I use both groups because sometimes I may hit the wrong one so using both fixes that problem. Typically I reserve this Grouping for weapons that lock (LRMs & Streaks) and sometimes SRMs.
Group #2 - Right Mouse, the less used weapon or TAG.
Group #1 - Left Mouse, main weapon used most. On LRM Boats, usually MLs setup or whatever.


OK, got that wrong but now remember why I always run TIG on LRM boats. Getting the paper doll of the target faster means I can pick the right target faster to rain on. I prefer that over the one that holds the target longer.

I tend to find myself brawling with some fast reacting LRM fire within a close cutting of the minimum range. (I'm a little crazy to some people with the way I use my LRMs.) Having LRMs in a slower to respond to key would typically be bad for me. However, having TAG on another harder to get to key might be more opportune... (for me.)

I can understand that. If I see a target with a red internal CT... I'll lob LRMs at him to kill him quick... (Typically, these are targets that "don't want to play with me" anymore in close range... they die trying to escape from my close range weapons and eat my LRMs.)

The Flying Gecko, on 23 May 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Jump Jets.
But on that note almost every mech I have has one-or-the-other.

The most frustrating aspect of ECM - Team mates that either don't read the team chat, ignore it, or don't speak english.

The team moves around the map counter-clockwise, and so does the enemy team.
However, they are slightly faster, and have ECM.
I communicating enemy positions to my team mates "THEY ARE BEHIND YOU!! TURN AROUND!!!".
Unfortunately, they are locked into this counter-clockwise march, and if it isn't on the radar or in their current field of view, it may as well not exist.
The faster enemies then move in on the guy in the rear, and single him out. He turns around as to not get cored from behind, while the rest of the team continues the counter-clockwise forced march. Leaving him to battle 3-4 enemies alone. Rinse and repeat, as the enemy picks off my team one at a time.

Sometimes, I intentionally shoot my team mates in the back. I have to. It's the only way to get their attention.

If *I* am the guy in the rear in the above scenario, I know my team mates are just going to keep walking and leave me behind to die, (nothing changes with the above mentioned "THEY ARE BEHIND YOU!! TURN AROUND!!!" in team-chat) but just a 1/10 second of a medium laser to the rear armor of two or three team mates and they wake up, instantly start turning and realize I'm fighting off 3-4 lights by myself, a few hundred meters away. I've been in a number of matches that I would have surely lost, had I not shot my team mates in the back.

I can say... I have done the "Look out behind you Atlas!" As I fought someone to try and save him. In the end, after typing (in combat... not easy) and still getting no response, I ended up brushing some laser fire along his rear. So, I've had to do this myself. (He ignored that, continued to walk forwards, and this was before ECM. I died, and then the Atlas started to get shot in the back, and THEN he finally turns around... and died himself...)

Tis sad when you have to shoot a teammate to wake them up and increase their situational awareness of things they should be seeing... (I don't normally suggest shooting an ally in any way, but sometimes... yeah... )

[Vanguard319]

To all those still crying about ECM:

You don't fight by your opponents rules, you make your own rules and force the other guy to fight by yours. All war is deception. I'm sure there are people in here who played assault where you slaughtered the other team only to lose to the lights capping your base. You knew it was a viable tactic, but you chose not to keep a fast force in reserve, yet I'm sure you still cried about how it was cheating. Can't launch LRMs because your opponents are under an ECM blanket? Do you not have any ECM of your own? If you do, why aren't you using the ECCM feature? How about UAVs, they counter ECM beautifully or can you not afford 40k for one? Have visual on them? Just drop Artillery strikes on the whole huddled mass as mailin suggested?

Merchant, on 22 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Counters have not changed how often it shows up.
Because you cannot find them thanks to ECM Stealth and good use of terrain, no one is going to spam the God Strikes anywhere hoping for Lucky Hits.

So you can't figure out where your opponents are from the laser fire coming from a ridge? You can't figure out how to maneuver close enough to land an artillery strike with some degree of accuracy? The whole idea of counters is that they make whatever they counter less effective when used correctly, not make the system completely irrelevant. Sounds like ECM is not so much OP as the people still complaining seem to have all the tactical brilliance of a grapefruit.

[Wildstreak]

Did anyone see the list of Clan variants proposed? Russ put it on Reddit and someone said none of them come with ECM stock like the IS ECM Mechs do.

Vanguard319, on 23 May 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Sounds like ECM is not so much OP as the people still complaining seem to have all the tactical brilliance of a grapefruit.

And with this, you ruin your entire post making any point(s) invalid.
But they were even without this.

[Vanguard319]

mogs01gt, on 23 May 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

So you have to expose your mech to counter ECM?? Yeah, totally balanced.....

You realize that the disrupt mode on ECM and UAVs don't require you to expose your mech to use them? You can hit disrupt as soon as you get that low signal message and get the C-ECM bonus regardless of whether or not you can see the source. As for UAVs, I tend to deploy them based on the number of blips I get on Seismic, not on what I can see. Your argument is invalid.