60 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Even though 3 LL's incurs a bit closer to 4 points of additional heat... this is actually what makes 2 PPCs MORE DESIRABLE.

20 pts of heat (2 PPCs) vs 24.52 (3 LL with ghost heat penalties, w/o it, it would normally be 21 pts) WITH a 1 ton additional penalty (aka 1 less DHS) because you are running 3 LL vs 2 PPC.

That's the kind of madness that people don't get.

Unless the target is a terrible torso twister, you will virtually NEVER get all 27 points of damage in the place you want with 3 LL. In order to get even REMOTELY the same damage as 2 PPCs IN THE SAME SPOT, you would need to deal 74% (20/27) of the 3 LL's shot into the section of your choice. If the target is a good torso twister, you wouldn't realistically not get HALF of that dealt... and that doesn't begin to cover distance, exposure, and cooldown.

Edit:
The only time 27 pts of damage is actually dealt at once is when the target is clueless (doesn't realize they are being hit) or the target is shutdown. Without even trying to discuss extremes, just check the average damage dealt by lasers vs average damage dealt by PPCs, and that's just a confirmation of the reality we're in.

This I agree with.

[Ultimax]

Grimmrog, on 27 May 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

Ghostheat was intrduced to prevent alphaspam. But by this loadouts, the alphaspam is still possible. I just need to mix up the weapons. The only thing it does is killing the varriety for going on a laserboat.

So why should an PPC not ghostheat with LL? By that it wouldn't care that much if I go 3x LL or 3x PPK or a mix like 1xPPK 2xLL.

GH was not introduced to prevent alphas.

It was introduced to prevent the easiest alphas, that only require boating one weapon type, all with the exact same delivery method, all with the exact same flight speed.

We can dislike Ghost Heat's hidden and user unfriendly design.

We can dislike the lack of information in-game.

We can even argue that some weapons like large lasers are unfairly penalized at X threshold instead of Y threshold, and that GH isn't properly implemented across weapon types.


We can't however argue that it was intended to stop "big alphas" because the design is extremely clear in what is penalized, and what is not.

Mixed weapon type big alphas = 0 penalty
Single weapon type big alphas = GH penalties

[Kassatsu]

For racking up the damage points I can chain fire 4 large lasers all day long in my Orion... It's useless, but as long as I'm not the focus of the enemy I can fire for a rather long period of time. I think it has 22 DHS? I forget, but it was better than what the 4LL stalker can carry and WAY faster + lower arm actuators... Only real downside to it is it's got a torso the size of a dropship and the point of fire is considerably lower than a stalker's arms.

Alpha striking is just asking for a shutdown, pretty sure it puts it at almost 70% heat. It can stay heat neutral alternating two large lasers indefinitely, takes quite a while to overheat chain firing all four as long as you don't overlap their durations. It took so long with 4 LL that I wound up replacing two with ERLL.

I'd rather be able to fire two at once though so it wouldn't be a completely worthless build beyond the initial shock of seeing four blue beams from an Orion... Not to mention there are vastly superior Orion builds out there.

But seriously, ghost heat can die.

Edited by Kassatsu, 27 May 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[P e n u m b r a]

honestly think just that one change would bring the weapon into seeing serious play with everything else, increase lbx velocity and fix srm make a module that makes gauss not lose it charge once charged then we would have some cool variation.

Edited by L e 0, 27 May 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 26 May 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Re. the discussion of randomized shot deviation.

1 - BattleTech is a setting where, whether due to post-apocalyptic tech level decay or super-advanced integrated countermeasures, it is quite difficult even to hit another mech, let alone concentrate fire on a single point.

2 - A cone of fire does not have to be always-on. Indeed, an always-on CoF would be terrible. Rather, MWO should borrow a concept from the TT, where situational modifiers dynamically reduce precision. Throttle %, heat capacity %, stability state, etc., should all impact just how precise your shots are. Want to land a volley exactly at your aim point? Slow down, cool off, and make sure both feet are firmly on the ground before you take that shot. Need to shoot now because waiting is likely to get you killed/move your target out of the line of fire? Then your shots will deviate around your aimpoint based on how fast you are going, how hot you are running, and whether you are jumping or getting knocked around by enemy fire.

3 - Any CoF-style mechanic should not touch accuracy. Instead, it should only modify precision. Accuracy is how close to the aim point the center of a pattern is. Precision is how small diameter of the pattern is. Accuracy should always be perfect. Precision is what should be changing dynamically based on conditions. Having accuracy change means that pinpoint FLD is still a problem, it just becomes less predictable where that single impact point will be. Precision reduction, though, means that aim still matters a lot, but it reduces pinpoint volley fire by spreading shots around the point of aim.

Problem. The varied scale of the Mechs in action would make things very complex. Speed for one. Does a Light that can run 140kph get a different scale than an Assault max at 46kph.

Set a single scale that accommodates all Mechs the same way, and let the players decide what to drive? Not going to be very pretty. If the shot deviation at 45kph is set to X%, then at 140kph it will have to be X%(x3) for parity.

Can't seem many Lights wanting to slow to 45kph to get a decent/quasi accurate shot off.

Jun Watarase, on 26 May 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

3x large lasers are overpowered, 4x ac5s are not. According to PGI anyway.

27 vs 20 damage and one carries ammo... 3 LL's are totally doable btw. Those AC5's still have to face the target unless Alpha'd as well. Alpha miss chance is total damage lost. Lasers can graze and still do damage.

[Almond Brown]

Grimmrog, on 27 May 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

and yet no one uses 3 LL over 2 PPC, because PPC's do their job better: delivering the damage where needed.

stuff

Not sure about nobody but I do know PPC's have a min range and erLL\LL's do not.

[Deathlike]

Here's some more to think about...

With Ghost Heat penalties, it makes switching one PPC out for a ERPPC becomes a bit more attractive.
1 ERPPC + 1 PPC vs 3 LL... now the 3 LL probably cools a bit better (because you are getting actively cooled as you fire the LL), but the ERPPC mech CAN actually fight vs minimum range now (though, at a very high initial cost at 15 pts of heat) which can negate the benefits of going straight 3 LL.

Then again if you're trying to run 1 ERPPC + 1 PPC, you are pretty much heading into requiring 17-18 DHS minimum to cool that down effectively... which is more or less the same for 3 LL in the grand scheme of things.

There's literally no sane reason to put ghost heat on 3 LL, other than promoting the PPC meta.

[Koniving]

DaZur, on 26 May 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

I'd be fine with delayed convergence and feel free to add to that any sundry of recoil and or external accuracy influences (read: topology jossle, ablative damage, speed etc..)

At the end of the day mitigating pin-point damage should be influenced by environmentals not some random chance occurrence... "I" as the pilot should be making decisions to enhance my probabilities to hit where I am... Not hoping I rolled a seven.

How about headbob?
Try this..
Go into third person on any map.
Make your mech move.
Observe your crosshair.
Adjust speed.
Observe your crosshair.
Twist and aim.
Observe your crosshair.
Climb and go down hills.
Observe the crosshair.

Instant fix to all pinpoint issues. No random chance. Geographically and speed-influenced accuracy, so you will know exactly what will influence it. Even better, this accuracy is automatically influenced by the way your mech moves, making it unique to every single mech.

Amount of work required? Almost none.
Mind = blown!

Would you be interested if that also applied to first person?

[xCico]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

We can't have nice things.

To put in perspective based on ghost heat caps...

2 PPCs = 20 pt instant pinpoint damage
6 med lasers = 30 pt streaming damage
2 large lasers = 18 pt streaming damage

Does this compute? PGI logic.

But range bro...

[Deathlike]

Almighty Cico, on 27 May 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

But range bro...

And tonnage, crits, and heat, yea yea.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Koniving, on 27 May 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

How about headbob?
Try this..
Go into third person on any map.
Make your mech move.
Observe your crosshair.
Adjust speed.
Observe your crosshair.
Twist and aim.
Observe your crosshair.
Climb and go down hills.
Observe the crosshair.

Instant fix to all pinpoint issues. No random chance. Geographically and speed-influenced accuracy, so you will know exactly what will influence it. Even better, this accuracy is automatically influenced by the way your mech moves, making it unique to every single mech.

Amount of work required? Almost none.
Mind = blown!

Would you be interested if that also applied to first person?

That may explain why 3rd person is not widely used. Not sure 1st person would be better for it though.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

Problem. The varied scale of the Mechs in action would make things very complex. Speed for one. Does a Light that can run 140kph get a different scale than an Assault max at 46kph.

Set a single scale that accommodates all Mechs the same way, and let the players decide what to drive? Not going to be very pretty. If the shot deviation at 45kph is set to X%, then at 140kph it will have to be X%(x3) for parity.

Can't seem many Lights wanting to slow to 45kph to get a decent/quasi accurate shot off.

It's not a problem at all. Simply use throttle %. Want to run that Atlas at 54 kph? Then your shots will deviate a certain amount around your aim point. It's a tradeoff.

Doing something in absolute terms, by speed, would wreck lights and make them unplayable. The trick is to have the movement penalty be noticeable but not huge, like maybe 1m deviation at 50%, 2m at 75%, and 3m at 100% or something to that effect. Since the penalty would be combined with that cause by running hot and having a less-than-optimal stability state, you don't need each singular penalty to be big.

[n r g]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

So 2 PPCs across the board it is...



Chainfiring lasers is generally a BAD idea (if anything, it's pretty much an underhive-suggestion). The more time you expose yourself to the opponent, your TTK is shortened. That's why even "hit and fade" attacks for snipers/brawlers is a novel idea, as the heat generated will overwhelm you and not allow you to fire further until you cool down... overheating in mid-combat is your own undoing.



I'm pretty sure that's what the charge mechanic is for... because giving it ghost heat like the AC20 makes zero sense.

hit it right on the money deathlike

[Almond Brown]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 27 May 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

It's not a problem at all. Simply use throttle %. Want to run that Atlas at 54 kph? Then your shots will deviate a certain amount around your aim point. It's a tradeoff.

Doing something in absolute terms, by speed, would wreck lights and make them unplayable. The trick is to have the movement penalty be noticeable but not huge, like maybe 1m deviation at 50%, 2m at 75%, and 3m at 100% or something to that effect. Since the penalty would be combined with that cause by running hot and having a less-than-optimal stability state, you don't need each singular penalty to be big.

Curious. So a 140kph Mech gets the same 3m deviation as a full out 54kph Mech? A Spider is not even 3m wide. How does that compute for an Atlas, or the other Large Assaults.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Curious. So a 140kph Mech gets the same 3m deviation as a full out 54kph Mech? A Spider is not even 3m wide. How does that compute for an Atlas, or the other Large Assaults.

Naturally the 1/2/3m delineation is an example set of values. PGI would naturally have to figure out real numbers.

[Sprouticus]

Waelsleaht, on 26 May 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

you want pinpoint damage fixed? ok lets change it from a sim to a dice game. Problem solved only way you can solve it without making this game even more out of touch with the technology the game has. lets be honest even torso mounted weapons can be slightly adjusted to converge at the technology level they have in game. especially lasers. since they are a beam of focused light. slight change on focus point means converging beams.

If they did implement weapons only converging from arms and torso weapons were fixed straight ahead and never merged it wouldn't change the meta because a lot of mechs mount said meta weapons on each arm then one in torso. guess what the arms can converge with the torso one that cannot. hmm problem not solved is it?

You miss the point. PPC's and AC's do not spread damage. Every other system in the game does so in one way (DoT) or another (LBX/SRM/LRM spread).

The entire issue could have been fixed fromt he start if PGI had made AC's similar to MW3 AC's and made PPC's splash or DoT.

The counter argument to this is that it would make all weapons too similar. I see the point in the argument, but I would rather have a bunch of DoT weapons. I just think the price of that uniqueness is too high (meta is quite limited).

But it really doesnt matter, things will NOT change. Clan UAC's will be DoT, but clan ERPPC's will be FLD. Clan lbx will allow slugs which will be the same as current IS Ac's


So the meta will remain. Forever. Deal with it. (mind you I hate it, just being realistic).

IS meta = PPC + AC5
Clan Meta = ERPPC + lbx5 or lbx10 w/ slug rounds.

On the up side for those of us who like to just play for fun and are not focused on meta the cERLL and cLPL and cLRM's will be a ton of fun.

[Gattsus]

what if PPCs had charge time?

that would fix the poptart-meta a bit...

Edited by Gattsus, 27 May 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Replace ghost heat with a hardcap system.

-No dual gauss/AC 20s
-No more than 1 or 2 AC10/LBX-10s (debatable)
-No more than 2 AC5s
-No more than 3 AC2s
-No more than 2 PPCs
-No stacking 2 PPCs with any ballistics except MGs
-No stacking AC20/gauss with any ballistics except Mgs
-If using 2x AC5, not allowed to have any more ballistics other than MGs
-If using 3x AC2, not allowed to have any more ballistics other than MGs
-If using 1 or 2 AC10s/LB-10x, not allowed to have any moIre ballistics other than MGs
-If using 1 PPC, not allowed to have more than 1 ballistic excluding MGs
-No more than 4 LRM-5s or more than 40 LRMs in total
-All weapons fire is much more inaccurate when in mid air (not just when firing jump jets). If you want to shoot accurately, wait till you are on the ground.

100% guarantee that much more varied builds start showing up in games. Unfortunately, also 100% guarantee PGI wont do anything like this....

[Gattsus]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Replace ghost heat with a hardcap system.

100% guarantee that much more varied builds start showing up in games. Unfortunately, also 100% guarantee PGI wont do anything like this....

It's a terrible idea, most of the builds that use such configs suffer from "overweight".
For example: 3xac2 = ac20+ammo. Here you're punishing a dps build, that's not that great anyway.
2PPC+are only viable in heavies (and some troll mediums), still they compensate generating a lot of heat and tonnage.

I would say the problem is the weapon mechanic, than the weapon itself. Imposing hard caps you would be limiting one of the only redeeming qualities of mechwarrior, that is the ability to tweak and take risks in the builds to reap some sort of rewards.

Edited by Gattsus, 27 May 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[Gattsus]

Jun Watarase, on 27 May 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

-All weapons fire is much more inaccurate when in mid air (not just when firing jump jets). If you want to shoot accurately, wait till you are on the ground.

I agree. Die poptarts.