75 replies to this topic

[Kassatsu]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 27 May 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

a good mountain can do the same thing. Remove mountains?

There's a difference between intelligent maneuvering and dragging and dropping a two-slot 1.5 ton piece of equipment on to your mech. Though given your sarcasm and other examples I'm not sure you could tell that difference.

Edited by Kassatsu, 27 May 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[Dazzer]

I think ECM should be a component available to all mechs.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 26 May 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Hurray for ppl who dont learn the game wanting to change the game
BAP counters ECM.
PPC counters ECM
The only thing ECM does is prevents LRM/SSRM locks. Does nothing to prevent any other weapon.
If you cant hit someone with lasers,AC or any other weapon dont blame the ECM blame your aim.

You sir are completely correct, ECM is not OP and there are just numerous counters to it, so what they should do is make it available to EVERY mech. Make it just like BAP, a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that any mech can mount. Since its inception it has been limited to just a handful of mech variants, but since it is so easy to counter now it should be made available to every single mech. That should be fine, as in your own words it is not OP. Will be very fun to see that game, 24 mechs in a match all carrying ECM. It shouldn't be a problem though, just a matter of L2P and use the counters correctly.

edit* see Dazzer has the right idea

Edited by Tincan Nightmare, 27 May 2014 - 12:57 AM.

[AlexEss]

To be honest ECM is only really annoying in PUG´s. In premade you can pretty much count on at least one mach carrying it and can plan accordingly but in pug´s it is a roll of the dice and when the snake eyes hit you feel like the entire world is against you. This is made worse by the fact that most pug matches are not organized enough to quickly take out the ECM mech without suffering to much damage.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kassatsu, on 26 May 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

Spoken like a true ECM pilot. Or CTF-3D, DS, Victor or Highlander that wants everybody to "Lrn2play".

I don't have ECM, but I agree with Funk. So how will you try to Shame me for it?

[Kassatsu]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 01:19 AM, said:

I don't have ECM, but I agree with Funk. So how will you try to Shame me for it?

Pretty much the same way. Was there even really a point in asking?

[zortesh]

I say during the tourney i had several games where the matchmaker put 5+ ecm mechs on one side and 5+ missileboats on the other...

Now a ecm mech is easy to deal with... ppc it, throw a narc bacon on it.... but 6 of them when half your team is missileboats? I mean I've seen a singular victory in such circumstances... but usally you can expect a 12-0 game with ecm team on top.

Few ecm mechs can murder a pug team, not becuase ecm is overpowered but because it removes the tiny itsy bit of information sharing they already have.

I mean 6 ecm vs missile heavy team is unafair, but who cares, unfair games are fun at times.

Ecm could be reworked....

But mostly we need some useful map marker type thing, ie press one button to make a enemy movement marker on map.

I mean typing enemy positions is just not practical....

[Joseph Mallan]

Kassatsu, on 27 May 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

Pretty much the same way. Was there even really a point in asking?

As a matter of fact. Yes. If I am not using ECM You cannot use the same whine. Funk told you the only weapons that ECM hurts. After that, Ballistics and Energy hit ECM Mechs with ease.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 May 2014 - 01:37 AM.

[Kassatsu]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

As a matter of fact. Yes. If I am not using ECM You cannot use the same whine. Funk told you the only weapons that ECM hurts. After that, Ballistics and Energy hit ECM Mechs with ease.

Let me bold the part you completely ignored:

Kassatsu, on 26 May 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

Spoken like a true ECM pilot. Or CTF-3D, DS, Victor or Highlander that wants everybody to "Lrn2play".

You see, *I* was the one that implied Funk was the ECM pilot. Or you know, any of those bolded options. He said nothing to confirm or deny any one of those at any point in time.

But I guess having a 1.5 ton 2-slot mountain mounted on enemy mechs that can run 150kph is fine with you as well.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kassatsu, on 27 May 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Let me bold the part you completely ignored:


You see, *I* was the one that implied Funk was the ECM pilot. Or you know, any of those bolded options. He said nothing to confirm or deny any one of those at any point in time.

But I guess having a 1.5 ton 2-slot mountain mounted on enemy mechs that can run 150kph is fine with you as well.

Yes Let me point out the part that you miss. Those are Both builds that are reinforcing my point! If you have direct fire ECM is not that scary/impressive. I am not in either of those Mechs, and I still agree with Funk. ECM only truly messes with Missiles, which was not supposed to be the case. ECM was only to counter ART4, and TAG! I have had little to no problems with ECM since 3 days after it was introduced. I switched from LRMs to direct fire weapons. Now I hit R an if I don't get Lock, I just point and click with ACs, energy and standard SRMs.

Funk is correct, If you bring the right weapons mix (Not LRMboat) ECM is a nuisance at best.

[Grayblue]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 26 May 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

When your team has no ECM and the other has 6. That is a matchmaking problem NOT an ECM problem!
ECM is not OP
You can counter ECM with BAP
You can counter ECM with PPC
You can counter ECM with TAG
BOOHOO you cant no aim LRM a team with ecm...
double BOO HOO you realize you dont have ECM and the other team has LRMS and you stand in the open!

By the time BAP counters ECM, I can already see the light ECM shooting at me.

PPC and TAG only works AFTER I see the ECM mech.

So much for your not so subtly disguised self-serving so called counters.

[Kassatsu]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

Yes Let me point out the part that you miss. Those are Both builds that are reinforcing my point! If you have direct fire ECM is not that scary/impressive. I am not in either of those Mechs, and I still agree with Funk. ECM only truly messes with Missiles, which was not supposed to be the case. ECM was only to counter ART4, and TAG! I have had little to no problems with ECM since 3 days after it was introduced. I switched from LRMs to direct fire weapons. Now I hit R an if I don't get Lock, I just point and click with ACs, energy and standard SRMs.

Funk is correct, If you bring the right weapons mix (Not LRMboat) ECM is a nuisance at best.

So rather than being a support mech, you want to be a brawler or sniper because you can no longer play the support mech you originally wanted to. If you're fine with being completely unable to support the vast majority of teammates who do not have a direct line of sight to you that's cool.

I don't even care about LRM boats (though I do have one and am perfectly capable of using a TAG on it to try to "counter" ECM), the fact is the implementation of ECM is just completely broken. Most weapons and chassis have at least stuck to the general themes established by previous Mechwarrior titles (right up until ghost heat, gauss rifle 'fixes' and several other things anyway). This one just completely turns it inside out.

I *liked* the way it worked in MW3. It was annoying as hell, but it didn't completely lock out a perfectly legitimate build. You can try to tout BAP as the magical hard counter it's supposed to be, but if you're in an LRM boat guess what? That's right in your minimum range. "But teamwork!" Yeah, good luck with that in a pug match. Even if you DO stick with your team, chances are you're just a big target for the first enemy to come dashing by your lines, and if not, guess what? Half your team chases them down, leaving you exposed to the lance charging in right behind him.

They're broken in pugs, and they're broken in organized 12v12 (Notice how there are just about zero LRMs? Yeah, about that...). It seems like PGI is either unwilling to admit they made a mistake (again?), they're only picking and choosing feedback that suits the plans they've already made, or tend to follow positive feedback, even when in a minority. I mean, I don't have numbers, but just looking at posts about it, I'm pretty sure it's mostly negative about how broken ECM is.

Lastly, ECM is not stealth armor, which is an entirely different component with its own drawbacks. You want to run around in the open with impunity (from LRMs anyway), you sacrifice several things for stealth armor, not toss in a 1.5 ton 2-crit item or stick to a teammate who did.

Edited by Kassatsu, 27 May 2014 - 02:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kassatsu, on 27 May 2014 - 02:20 AM, said:

So rather than being a support mech, you want to be a brawler or sniper because you can no longer play the support mech you originally wanted to. If you're fine with being completely unable to support the vast majority of teammates who do not have a direct line of sight to you that's cool.

I don't even care about LRM boats (though I do have one and am perfectly capable of using a TAG on it to try to "counter" ECM), the fact is the implementation of ECM is just completely broken. Most weapons and chassis have at least stuck to the general themes established by previous Mechwarrior titles (right up until ghost heat, gauss rifle 'fixes' and several other things anyway). This one just completely turns it inside out.

I *liked* the way it worked in MW3. It was annoying as hell, but it didn't completely lock out a perfectly legitimate build. You can try to tout BAP as the magical hard counter it's supposed to be, but if you're in an LRM boat guess what? That's right in your minimum range. "But teamwork!" Yeah, good luck with that in a pug match. Even if you DO stick with your team, chances are you're just a big target for the first enemy to come dashing by your lines, and if not, guess what? Half your team chases them down, leaving you exposed to the lance charging in right behind him.

They're broken in pugs, and they're broken in organized 12v12 (Notice how there are just about zero LRMs? Yeah, about that...). It seems like PGI is either unwilling to admit they made a mistake (again?), they're only picking and choosing feedback that suits the plans they've already made, or tend to follow positive feedback, even when in a minority. I mean, I don't have numbers, but just looking at posts about it, I'm pretty sure it's mostly negative about how broken ECM is.

Lastly, ECM is not stealth armor, which is an entirely different component with its own drawbacks. You want to run around in the open with impunity (from LRMs anyway), you sacrifice several things for stealth armor, not toss in a 1.5 ton 2-crit item or stick to a teammate who did.

Oh I can and have used the Support Mech. But instead of complaining about ECM I accept it as how it works in this game. If I was a whiner I'd have quit back when I couldn't get better than 15 FpS. But I adapted. Oh I hate how PGI implemented ECM. But it is their game to make as they see fit, I voice my distaste, and continue to play as the game is set up. If you only bring Missiles and nothing else, you get what you deserve.

ECMs are OP for what they were originally intended, but as I and Funk keep saying, they are not the boogieman equipment some try to claim it is.

When my enemy is set up for stealth if I am a missile boat... Sucks to be me. Much like having a brawler on an Open large map. You come in you want random team composition then you complain when it bites your butt. IF I want to limit what my team's make up is like I drop wit the Law, If I want to limit what my opponents will have I play Private matches! But the PUG Que is what it is RANDOM.

So if your enemy has more of this, that, or the other than your team, YOU have chosen to play in the open Que, as a random player. You wanna reduce random, join a team or open a private lobby. I have no sympathy for your complaint, you know you can face any number of scenarios and enemy compositions but you choose to PUG anyway.

And BTW... If I want to bring a support Mech, I bring it, and as I do with my brawler, if I have a bad game I blame myself nothing else. I refuse to make excuses.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Grayblue, on 27 May 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

By the time BAP counters ECM, I can already see the light ECM shooting at me.

PPC and TAG only works AFTER I see the ECM mech.

So much for your not so subtly disguised self-serving so called counters.

sismec sensor works wonders LOL So yet another counter to not being able to see mechs with ECM.

Then your real issue is lights not ECM. You never said anything about a ATL or cicada. There are only 3 Lights that can use ECM and no one uses the commando. So really only 2 light mechs you see in game that can use the ECM. One medium and one assault.

You are not suppose to see every mech the entire match. That would be boring.

If you stay in one spot and complain about not being able to see mech (ECM does not stop your line of sight btw ) thats your problem not the ECM..

And for the record I rarely run mechs with ECM. In fact I dont use them in pugs, only in 12 mans when I am asked to by my lance. I prefer my jenners, firestarters and raven 4x (the 4x is my fav mech ) and have no issue with ecm.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 27 May 2014 - 03:51 AM.

[Screech]

I am not sure how your take away from this weekend was that ECM is overpowered. What I saw over the weekend was that play was 60%+ play heavies/assaults and from what I recall only 1 variant in that group has ECM. From what I saw the class with the most ECM was the least played. Why is that?

Edited by Screech, 27 May 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Adamski]

As long as every person that chooses to drive an ECM capable mech equips it, you know ECM is overpowered.

People choose not to equip AMS, BAP, TAG, etc etc and that indicate they are balanced, because there are options, no so with ECM.

And calling a PPC / TAG a counter to ECM is ridiculous, as they both require spotting and active aiming, as opposed to ECM passive bubble shield.

[ShadeofHades]

Adamski, on 27 May 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

As long as every person that chooses to drive an ECM capable mech equips it, you know ECM is overpowered.

People choose not to equip AMS, BAP, TAG, etc etc and that indicate they are balanced, because there are options, no so with ECM.

And calling a PPC / TAG a counter to ECM is ridiculous, as they both require spotting and active aiming, as opposed to ECM passive bubble shield.

Maybe it's just me, but I do try to keep BAP on every mech I can. The sooner I see the damage indicators the sooner I know where my fire will do the most good. To say nothing of spotting for any PUG lrms on my team.

[Varik Ronain]

Look as an avid catapult pilot and a supporter of LRMs I have come to terms with ECM. Sure when you are new and pugging and learning the ins and outs of the game it can be rough. It is frustrating to feel ineffective in a match and you start to blame it on the ECM when in fact it is the LRM pilots own knowledge that is the problem.

if you want locks, go get them yourself

if you want to knock out the enemy ecm do it yourself

I carry Bap, Tag, Narc and a Uav just so I can counter it on my own. The sooner everyone realizes that it is not the be all end all of equipment the better.

Much like many here bemoan the use of LRMs as "crutchwarrior" the same can be said of ECM pilots. There are good lrm pilots and bad ones and the same applies to ECM pilots. I would say there are more bad ECM pilots than good ones as well, countless times have I seen the enemy team surrounding an ECM mech and hiding behind a ridge. One UAV later and focusing the LRMs on the poor ECM who cant get away because he is so crowded he cant get to physical cover because he is being pinned in by his own team.

So in a nutshell, I play around what is in the game and I dont hate the ECM... I have more issues with skilled players who can position themselves to make my LRMs ineffective. I can overcome an ECM, I have every tool the game has for it... I cant move that mountain on the other hand.

[topgun505]

This debate regarding ECM has been going on since its introduction.

The problem is you really cannot look at ECM in a vacuum. Is it overpowered compared to what it is supposed to do in the TT? Absolutely. Ok ... so take out the group ECM shield part of the effect. What will happen? LRMageddon 3.0 That is a virtual guarantee.

The problem is, not only does ECM do more than it should, your targeting/info-sharing mechanic in this game ALSO does more than it should. If a unit clear on the other side of Alpine 1.5km+ away behind multiple hills with no LOS to you simply targets a unit with sensors ... how is YOUR mech picking that up that target lock? Every mech in this game has a pseudo-version of C3 (at no tonnage cost or crit slots). That needs addressed.

IMO, LRMs really aren't that bad ... the main problem is the ease of which they can be used in indirect mode. In TT it was horridly hard to do an indirect shot. So much so that you hardly ever see it done. Here it's a no-brainer. You should not be able to indirect something unless the target is actively being TAGd or NARCd (which then gives scouts an actual role to play!). If you did that you could easily turn off the group shield effect of ECM.

[Wildstreak]

Just reset ECM to what it was before Stealth and remove every counter.

Dazzer, on 27 May 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

I think ECM should be a component available to all mechs.

It should but what it is now would turn this game into NinjaWarrior Online.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

As a matter of fact. Yes. If I am not using ECM You cannot use the same whine. Funk told you the only weapons that ECM hurts. After that, Ballistics and Energy hit ECM Mechs with ease.

C'mon, Joe, you have been here long enough to know better, that description is way too narrow. ECM affects far more than Missiles, this was even proven by recent videos. Did you see them yet? I know some people are only going by their own games, while valid, time should be spent looking at certain other recent videos proving the argument against yours.

topgun505, on 27 May 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

This debate regarding ECM has been going on since its introduction.

The problem is you really cannot look at ECM in a vacuum. Is it overpowered compared to what it is supposed to do in the TT? Absolutely. Ok ... so take out the group ECM shield part of the effect. What will happen? LRMageddon 3.0 That is a virtual guarantee.

OK, that's false actually. There would be no LURMageddon again and the big issue people have with LRMs could be solved by using the MW2 mechanic that requires skill. Add in that every LRM boat driver should be required to play a stock LRM boat to learn how to make shots count, there are still LRM boaters shooting terrain and beyond the 1000m range having missiles explode harmlessly in the sky.

topgun505, on 27 May 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

The problem is, not only does ECM do more than it should, your targeting/info-sharing mechanic in this game ALSO does more than it should. If a unit clear on the other side of Alpine 1.5km+ away behind multiple hills with no LOS to you simply targets a unit with sensors ... how is YOUR mech picking that up that target lock? Every mech in this game has a pseudo-version of C3 (at no tonnage cost or crit slots). That needs addressed.

Easy, remove the paper doll for the enemy Mech until you get in a shorter range or replace it with something else making people guess through other means what part of a Mech to shoot.

Rest of you post repeats and I responded to it above this last quote.