205 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

What kind of Artillery arrives in mere 4 seconds in the first place.

At least the damage is going to be nerfed, if one believes dev vlog 4.

[Almond Brown]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

You're thinking too much about the fluff and not the balance.

As soon as the artillery or air strike is called and the red smoke goes up, the player has 4-seconds to activate the defense module's orbital strike to take out the artillery or air unit before it fires.

Let's not worry about things like the travel time of artillery shells or bombs or other realistic things like physics, because this game starts to fall apart quickly if you go down that path.

That would make ECM seem like a weak sauce tool.

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 May 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

Almond Brown, on 28 May 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

That would make ECM seem like a weak sauce tool.

This would make the game fun.

[Almond Brown]

JimEvolved, on 28 May 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

A max cap per team per match.

How do they enforce that rule under PUG play?

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 May 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[El Bandito]

Almond Brown, on 28 May 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

How do they enforce that rule under PUG play?

For example: If a team fires 3 Artillery Strikes, that disables it for the rest of the team. Air Strikes will have separate limit.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Almond Brown]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

What kind of Artillery arrives in mere 4 seconds in the first place.

At least the damage is going to be nerfed, if one believes dev vlog 4.

The kind that you can't hear is inbound until it is 4 seconds out?

[El Bandito]

Almond Brown, on 28 May 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

The kind that you can't hear is inbound until it is 4 seconds out?

What do you mean? How can it be already inbound before the command is given?

[Almond Brown]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

This would make the game fun.

So your Cancel module costs 40K as well right? That anti strike umbrella (50m radius) best be at least as expensive. So both players pay 40K and both end up with nothing. I could see PGI licking their C-Bill sinking teeth into that.

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

For example: If a team fires 3 Artillery Strikes, that disables it for the rest of the team. Air Strikes will have separate limit.

We are talking PUGS still right? 3 wasted right off and now we face 3 possible well placed enemy strikes, because our PUGS always suck more than their PUGS right?

I would stop buying, the few I do buy now, if that was the case.

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

What do you mean? How can it be already inbound before the command is given?

It is an arbitrary time frame. If you don't hit the Go button and don't see the smoke, what does it matter how long the arrival time is. You can't hear it coming no matter how long it takes...

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 May 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[El Bandito]

Almond Brown, on 28 May 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

We are talking PUGS still right? 3 wasted right off and now we face 3 possible well placed enemy strikes, because our PUGS always suck more than their PUGS right? I would stop buying, the few I do but now, if that was the case.

That's not a good argument. It is like saying the enemy team always have better spotters, or poptarts. Some matches are bad, some are good--that's just how it goes. I for one will actually keep buying the strikes if people like you are gonna buy less for it, because that will mean I have better chance fire off my shot.

Plus, limited strikes will give Lights and Mediums more boost because due to their speed they can get to the enemy and call for strikes faster than Heavies or Assaults. Role warfare will gain from this.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

Almond Brown, on 28 May 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

So your Cancel module costs 40K as well right? That anti strike umbrella (50m radius) best be at least as expensive. So both players pay 40K and both end up with nothing. I could see PGI licking their C-Bill sinking teeth into that.

Yes, the Anti-Battery Defense module would cost 40K c-bills. So, yeah...essentially allowing players to purchase a "cancel" button. The module would be on the same global cool-down as the strikes.

Whenever an Artillery or Air Strike is activated on the map, any player with this module gets an audio notification ("Air Strike: Detected" or "Artillery Strike: Detected").

At that point, they have 4 seconds (maybe 2) to activate the counter-strike. When activated, an orbital strike takes out the arty/air unit before it can fire.

This would create an interesting dynamic on the battlefield and allow players an option to avoid strikes without directly nerfing them. Balance and Counter-Balance = Good design and a fun gaming experience.

[El Bandito]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yes, the Anti-Battery Defense module would cost 40K c-bills. So, yeah...essentially allowing players to purchase a "cancel" button. The module would be on the same global cool-down as the strikes. Whenever an Artillery or Air Strike is activated on the map, any player with this module gets an audio notification ("Air Strike: Detected" or "Artillery Strike: Detected"). At that point, they have 4 seconds (maybe 2) to activate the counter-strike. When activated, an orbital strike takes out the arty/air unit before it can fire. This would create an interesting dynamic on the battlefield and allow players an option to avoid strikes without directly nerfing them. Balance and Counter-Balance = Good design and a fun gaming experience.

I would not encourage hard counter in any form.

[Bhael Fire]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I would not encourage hard counter in any form.

Why not? The crux of the many issues in this game is that there are not enough balance / counter-balance solutions. Just a constant never-ending struggle to balance by splitting hairs (i.e. adjusting damage values).

If they nerf the strike modules directly it will devalue them; many players will simply stop using them which defeats the purpose of having them in the first place.

If you provide options for players to spend c-bills on a hard counter, then you've introduced a complex dynamic of balance / counter-balance that allows both to exist without rendering either worthless. And...you've also introduced another viable consumable...which is always good in a F2P title like MWO.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 28 May 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 May 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

To my out of date knowledge... nothing like that exists!

Here is an easily digested update:
http://en.wikipedia....ery,_and_Mortar

tl;dr:


German system shooting down a mortar round.

Edited by Jonathan Paine, 28 May 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[El Bandito]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

Why not? The crux of the many issues in this game is that there are not enough balance / counter-balance solutions. Just a constant never-ending struggle to balance by splitting hairs (i.e. adjusting damage values). If they nerf the strike modules directly it will devalue them; many players will simply stop using them which defeats the purpose of having them in the first place. If you provide options for players to spend c-bills on a hard counter, then you've introduced a complex dynamic of balance / counter-balance that allows both to exist without rendering either worthless. And...you've also introduced another viable consumable...which is always good in a F2P title like MWO.

1. There are plenty of balance and counter balance mechanics in MWO. ECM, TAG, NARC, BAP, GHOST HEAT, JJ shake, reticule shake, hill climbing, just to name some on top of my head. Many of them are convoluted and down right badly done, but they are there.

2. Devaluing strikes should happen, because they are the top module choice, period. We need variety in this game and strikes in current form is detrimental to that. Besides, damage nerf is coming this way, based on the dev log 4.

3. Very few, if any will actually equip anti-strike module, especially in pugs. Why equip anti-strike when you can just equip strikes instead and earn more? On higher elo or in groups, just like AMS, there will be many people who will do just fine without anti-strike, except some poptart cheese groups who like to stay in one place. You will just make the poptarts even harder to take down because they don't even have to scatter anymore.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[CtrlAltWheee]

The strikes are good as they are. They need to be strong.

If someone gets a headshot... good! I don't want it to be arbitrary that headshots can't happen.

[Bhael Fire]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Why equip anti-strike when you can just equip strikes instead and earn more?

The whole point was to provide a defensive option for players that have problems avoiding strikes (like very slow moving 'mechs). I think strikes are fine as is, but apparently some people find them too hard to avoid and/or too powerful.

I think you're completely underestimating the value that an anti-strike module would have. It would be able to cancel any active strike on the map...anywhere. That is, you'd be able to prevent other players from harassing your team or forcing them to break formation.

This would be valuable not only in PUGs, but especially so in organized play where everyone takes strikes as standard. It would add a different dynamic to the constant spamming of strikes and make competitive games a little less predictable.

[El Bandito]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

The whole point was to provide a defensive option for players that have problems avoiding strikes (like very slow moving 'mechs). I think strikes are fine as is, but apparently some people find them too hard to avoid and/or too powerful. I think you're completely underestimating the value that an anti-strike module would have. It would be able to cancel any active strike on the map...anywhere. That is, you'd be able to prevent other players from harassing your team or forcing them to break formation. This would be valuable not only in PUGs, but especially so in organized play where everyone takes strikes as standard. It would add a different dynamic to the constant spamming of strikes and make competitive games a little less predictable.

What about the fact in enforces the poptart meta and deathballs, as I mentioned before? People can just hill hump all day and cancel any attempt at trying to displace them.

Also it is a hard counter which requires almost no skill to use. As easy as planting a strike is, you still need to aim for optimal spot. But the counter just requires you to push a button and voila.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

What about the fact in enforces the poptart meta and deathballs, as I mentioned before? People can just hill hump all day and cancel any attempt at trying to displace them.

Now, this is where Smoke Flares would come in play and actually be useful for more than just trolling. You could trick the enemy into wasting an Anti-Battery Defense module by popping off a Smoke Flare. Then pop a Strike.

[El Bandito]

Bhael Fire, on 28 May 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Now, this is where Smoke Flares would come in play and actually be useful for more than just trolling. You could trick the enemy into wasting an Anti-Battery Defense module by popping off a Smoke Flare. Then pop a Strike.

Yet another module just to counter the module that counters a module? If you haven't noticed, mechs have only 2-3 module slots at most and and at least 1 slot is reserved for the widely popular 4X Zoom or ATD module, and even the Seismic module. Not to mention the incoming 5 new modules, of which reduced leg damage module is going to be a must for JJ Lights and anti-ADT is going to be a must for pretty much everyone.

Bottom line: You can't hold all these modules. People in that situation will most likely stick with the Strikes since it will give them noticeable bonus on successful hit.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Yet another module just to counter the module that counters a module? If you haven't noticed, mechs have only 2-3 module slots at most and and at least 1 slot is reserved for the widely popular 4X Zoom or ATD module, and even the Seismic module. Not to mention the incoming 5 new modules, of which reduced leg damage module is going to be a must for JJ Lights and anti-ADT is going to be a must for pretty much everyone.

Bottom line: You can't hold all these modules. People in that situation will most likely stick with the Strikes since it will give them noticeable bonus on successful hit.

Yeah, you're right... we shouldn't have module options. Let's just have 3 modules and call it a day.