300 replies to this topic

[Sable]

I've put up with a lot of this through the last 6 months. They've tried to address this a few times but its still just super annoying. The only thing to get me this frustrated before was the PPC nonsense that made me stop playing for 3 weeks until they finally adjusted them.

Does anyone else feel like the game would be a substantially better game if they just disabled all weapons while in the air? There's got to be a better way but i'm at that point where they could do just that and i'd be totally satisfied with it.

Maybe make the momentum of the mech not change so sharply after the jets cut so that mechs hover for a while and then slowly fall and return shots are more doable?

I'd also love for them to make all autocannons shoot in burst like they said they are doing for clan weapons instead of single shots. Spreading that damage around would do wonders at reducing pinpoint damage. And PPCs cooldown increased to 6 seconds or or or the speed slowed down like in every frickin other mechwarrior game before it. I didn't understand why PPCs were slow moving in other mechwarrior games until they did it until MWO and now it just makes so much sense.

I got premium time running but i think i'm just gonna let it burn away and hope something changes soon.


NOTE: pages 3-7 get way off topic with a few people arguing and insulting each other but around page 8 people start to get back on topic.

Edited by Sable, 28 May 2014 - 07:31 AM.

[Xoxim SC]

Disabling weapons while in the air, along with several other ideas have been brought up on Twitter, and the devs said they would be putting something in for the next patch. What it is I've not the slightest idea, but I guess we'll see next week.

[Kyle Wright]

By disabling weapons in the air you would take away the combat function of lights, and other mechs that might use JJ's to hop over a obstacle and surprise a LRM boat or jumpsniper with a little close in brawl action.

I agree sommethign should be done to address the problem for people. Perhaps making JJ's create heat so that Jumpsnipers would be less inclined to use it while jumping from fear of shutting down unless they fire say 1 PPC?

[Bishop Steiner]

Take an already existing mechanic to fix it.

We have Cockpit/Reticle Shake on the "Up-Jump". What is so hard about extending that Shake into the first .3-1.0 second of the "Down-Jump"?

Sympathetic vibrations don't end the moment the thrust does. Ain't how physics work. What it does though, is force the Jumper to Jump Higher, thus exposing more of their mech, for a longer time, to be able to have that same shot window as before. This instantly impact the Risk/Reward Ratio, and makes it much less the no-brainer tactic it currently is, while also increasing the required skill curve to use it effectively.

Thus, the tactic remains viable, but it would largely disappear in lower Elo Tiers, and even in upper Elos, the R/Rr is not so strong as to make it the mandatory Meta it is right now.

And if it were combined with the proposal to correctly scale leg damage to mass, non JJ cushioned landings? This would cause them to actually mount full JJs (or close to) to have enough thrust to get the shot AND land without breaking their legs. Not to mention the braking thrust would increase the shot window against them, potentially, also.


Thoughts?

[El Bandito]

Just keep the reticule shake on all the way until the mech lands.

Fracking Bishop, ninjaing my posts.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 May 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[nimdabew]

Why not just put in the wandering reticule while in the air. Jumping and firing is still possible, but you won't be able to aim that well while in the air (like, I dunno, real life). Jump from a trampoline and try to shoot a pistol (don't actually do this, that is incredibly dangerous).

[Bishop Steiner]

Kyle Wright, on 27 May 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

By disabling weapons in the air you would take away the combat function of lights, and other mechs that might use JJ's to hop over a obstacle and surprise a LRM boat or jumpsniper with a little close in brawl action.

I agree sommethign should be done to address the problem for people. Perhaps making JJ's create heat so that Jumpsnipers would be less inclined to use it while jumping from fear of shutting down unless they fire say 1 PPC?

I agree jumpsniping needs to remain a viable tactic, but I think it needs to have it's skill curve steepened significantly, and the Risk/Reward Ratio swung back into balance.

My issue with heat is it actually punishes the in your face brawler more, as he has no option to hide and cooldown, and is usually already riding the heat curve something fierce. Compare that to the Jumpsniper, who may indeed decrease DPS, but that is about it.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Take an already existing mechanic to fix it.

We have Cockpit/Reticle Shake on the "Up-Jump". What is so hard about extending that Shake into the first .3-1.0 second of the "Down-Jump"?

Sympathetic vibrations don't end the moment the thrust does. Ain't how physics work. What it does though, is force the Jumper to Jump Higher, thus exposing more of their mech, for a longer time, to be able to have that same shot window as before. This instantly impact the Risk/Reward Ratio, and makes it much less the no-brainer tactic it currently is, while also increasing the required skill curve to use it effectively.

Thus, the tactic remains viable, but it would largely disappear in lower Elo Tiers, and even in upper Elos, the R/Rr is not so strong as to make it the mandatory Meta it is right now.

And if it were combined with the proposal to correctly scale leg damage to mass, non JJ cushioned landings? This would cause them to actually mount full JJs (or close to) to have enough thrust to get the shot AND land without breaking their legs. Not to mention the braking thrust would increase the shot window against them, potentially, also.


Thoughts?

Perhaps a convergence penalty as well?
I would say the pinpoint could be mitigated by only allowing perfect convergence if both shooter and target mechs are stationary. Both moving bigger cone of fire, one is still smaller cone.

[Bishop Steiner]

nimdabew, on 27 May 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Why not just put in the wandering reticule while in the air. Jumping and firing is still possible, but you won't be able to aim that well while in the air (like, I dunno, real life). Jump from a trampoline and try to shoot a nerf pistol ..... (it seems to be how Paul makes balance decisions)

FTFY

[elitewolverine]

Sable, on 27 May 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

I've put up with a lot of this through the last 6 months. They've tried to address this a few times but its still just super annoying. The only thing to get me this frustrated before was the PPC nonsense that made me stop playing for 3 weeks until they finally adjusted them.

Does anyone else feel like the game would be a substantially better game if they just disabled all weapons while in the air? There's got to be a better way but i'm at that point where they could do just that and i'd be totally satisfied with it.

Maybe make the momentum of the mech not change so sharply after the jets cut so that mechs hover for a while and then slowly fall and return shots are more doable?

I'd also love for them to make all autocannons shoot in burst like they said they are doing for clan weapons instead of single shots. Spreading that damage around would do wonders at reducing pinpoint damage. And PPCs cooldown increased to 6 seconds or or or the speed slowed down like in every frickin other mechwarrior game before it. I didn't understand why PPCs were slow moving in other mechwarrior games until they did it until MWO and now it just makes so much sense.

I got premium time running but i think i'm just gonna let it burn away and hope something changes soon.

What your asking for is a nerf. When you apply enough nerfs upon nerfs, the game gets broken. Then you have to add more patches and nerfs to fix the last nerf.

You wanna get rid of pop tarts? Make jumping a challenge that either doesnt guarantee a hit in the actually spot you said you were gonna hit. And you get rid of the fast weapon cycles.

You get rid of fast weapon cycles you allow the enemy a better chance to get into cover, and you allow faster units to approach and distract a poptart.

But those two things go from TT and this is not TT, this is MWO, so expect a nerf to deal with a game mechanic that can be fixed by looking at the TT game...just saying

[Capt Sternn]

World of Tanks aiming reticle. If you are moving your accuracy suffers, So Lights who are fighting close in wouldn't be as effected, while it would hurt the Jump snipers where even if they hit their target they wouldn't be able to land their shot where they wanted. It would solve a lot of problems with this game.

[Bishop Steiner]

InspectorG, on 27 May 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Perhaps a convergence penalty as well?
I would say the pinpoint could be mitigated by only allowing perfect convergence if both shooter and target mechs are stationary. Both moving bigger cone of fire, one is still smaller cone.

while not against it, I think if you force the shooter to be exposed longer, and have a much smaller window for their shot, you would eliminate jump sniping from the Low to Mid Elo tiers, pretty much totally. And TBH, if someone has the actual skill to pull of the shot with those factors, more power to him, IMO.

Plus, logically speaking, the more in depth and convoluted the fixes for the issue are, in theory the less likely to occur. Of course, we are talking about the group that though of Ghost Heat as the simple, logical fix to boating, so maybe complex and convoluted IS the way to go, lol.

But really, I think the best way is use what is there, and easy, first, and then see how it plays out, and then possibly add other things like CoF (which will cause it's own wave of anger) after, if still needed?

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

I can predict a whole lot of people leaving...I personally will have to delete mech I paid $$ for the skins for and all the time I vested into them, this is why I no longer spend here...every time someone cries it cost me bookoo hours of hard grinding and actual cash...because if a mech no longer fills a role..it is gone, no questions asked...plus the skins i pay for that I don't get the mc back....ya...starting to hate this game

[Bishop Steiner]

Peekaboo I C JU, on 27 May 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

I can predict a whole lot of people leaving...I personally will have to delete mech I paid $$ for the skins for and all the time I vested into them, this is why I no longer spend here...every time someone cries it cost me bookoo hours of hard grinding and actual cash...because if a mech no longer fills a role..it is gone, no questions asked...plus the skins i pay for that I don't get the mc back....ya...starting to hate this game

which is why the best solutions keep mechs and roles viable, but remove the clearly defined "EZMode" Meta.

Jumpsniping is Legit.
LRMs are Legit.
Brawling is legit.
Wolfpacks are legit.

but when one is the clear cut obvious answer over all the rest because the base skill curve is shallow (though some very good players also use the tactic, it doesn't change the fact that it is a pathetically easy tactic) and the Risk/Reward Ratio is clearly skewed to High Reward/Low Risk, that tactic needs to be reined in.

If actually having to work at it drives one away from the gme, I submit they were never as good as they thought they were. Most High Elo players I know actually hate the tactic, and having to use it, but their competitive nature ovecomes their distaste.

Mind you, there will always be a metagame, and at least situationally, some tactics and weapons will always have superiority over others. But there is no reason for the gap to be so huge and clear cut as it has been in MWO for the last year.

Plus the players who will leave if they have to stop, or actually get better at Poptarting? How about all the players who already HAVE left, or are going to leave because of the Poptarting?

[Wolfways]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Sense

I'm liking way too many of your posts lately. Please stop making sense

[MischiefSC]

Baby /= bathwater.

The fundamental issue is that if everyone played 'optimized' (peak meta) you'd have 3 mechs to choose from and suddenly all these people bragging up their stats and how much everyone else needs to 'L2P' would just be average; possibly low average. The top tier players would adapt and still be top tier players.

So how do you broaden what fits in that? Using weapons while using JJs simply exacerbates the existing FLD issue. That's the issue. That, right there.

Simple solution really is to make DPS/DOT weapons work at 500+m effectively and higher FLD weapons work >270m. Right now we have the opposite.

Give lasers 3x range, give PPC 1x range (end of range it just peters out), give ACs 1.5x range with higher falloff after 1x range - except LB10X, which gets 2x range.

Suddenly ERPPCs are interesting again, lasers are peak (which as DOT are more manageable) and ACs are brawling weapons. Put AC2 back at its appropriate range and slow its ROF a bit to reduce its DPS and prevent it from being suddenly peak weapon.

Can't really poptart with lasers, can you? If the PPC is a hot AC without any sort of range advantage over any other weapon and still have a minimum range it's suddenly not peak energy. ERPPCs are the only viable poptart/sniper weapon (along with Gauss, but it's only got 1.5x range) and it's way too hot to use in close quarters or stack with any effectiveness.

Seriously, I could fix this game in a weekend. I'm considering just taking personal control of, well, the whole world. That way I can make sure everything works the best way.

[elitewolverine]

What your proposing though mischief sc is to work around the current system and apply nerfs to weapons so that they 'cant' be used.

Instead add TT elements like slower weapon fire rates which allow for enemy to move in and take coverfrom a poptarter...

Don't gimp weapons, fix the under lining mechanic

[Bishop Steiner]

elitewolverine, on 27 May 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

What your proposing though mischief sc is to work around the current system and apply nerfs to weapons so that they 'cant' be used.

Instead add TT elements like slower weapon fire rates which allow for enemy to move in and take coverfrom a poptarter...

Don't gimp weapons, fix the under lining mechanic

or since, I think we can admit, getting anything core fixed is by now a pipe dream, use simple to implement ideas that do the job better than the one's Paull or the NGNG guys offer up?

[Alexandrix]

Don't ppc's have the same recycle rate as a medium laser?
no one see's that as a problem?

[Bishop Steiner]

Alexandrix, on 27 May 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Don't ppc's have the same recycle rate as a medium laser?
no one see's that as a problem?

I do. I feel between 4-5 second make more sense. But I feel that almost ll major weapon systems should be slowed down a skosh. The LB-X is the only I feel OK with current RoF to compensate for it's other shortcomings. Even the AC10 should have .5-.75 added to cool down.