24 replies to this topic

[CaptainDeez]

Ever since the patch that made LRMs more effective alot of players have begun using ECMs as a way to stay out of lock and off radar. But many players are now complaining that the ECM is unbalanced for these exact reasons. Since it's unlikely that PGI will axe the ECM or even tune it down, it only makes sense to adapt.

If you're having a problem with ECM's consider getting a Tag, with the exception of an ECM sitting on top of you a simple 1 ton tag can negate all of the ECMs main advantages, keeping the enemy off radar, and out of missile lock. Add a bap and close in ECMs have absolutely no advantages to fallback on. And since ECM mechs tend to play more aggressivley, encountering this combo can often mean a swift death by missile or gang bang.

You don't need missiles for a tag to be useful, alot of meta-game strategies simply fall apart once you start tagging enemies. ECM Ravens can't snipe in the open, teams are no longer safe hugging the ECM mech, and often an ECM mech will draw the rest of the team into strategically awkward posistions because they are all dependent on that one module. Not to mention missiles start hitting harder. Tag a few guys and they realize the ECM mech isn't keeping them safe and will often become more skittish because they are more visible and easier to counter-snipe.

Heck, my ECM spider has a tag just so i can provide the advantages of it to my team while negating it's advantages for the enemy. Not to mention a dedicated tagger can rack up credits very quickly even if they didn't do much offensive damage. You have to adapt to what's thrown at you, if the ECM is making alot of headaches for you, there are hard counters. It may mean one less medium laser, but what good is a ml when you can't get close anyways?

[Skiddlywibble]

I actually prefer the narc when it comes to countering ECM. It's harder to use in matches where teams are keeping their distance, but it really excels in closer fighting because you can narc multiple targets at once, so even if you're up against multiple ECM 'mechs you still have the opportunity to kill their cover.

[Dazzer]

So using ECM to do what it was made to do is now ?

So the LRM boaters are not just happy to hide behind a rock and lock and rain. They want to nerf the only tool we have to counter you.

thats just sad.

[Striker1980]

My only concern is the volume of ECM, in the impoverished and technologically backwards 3050's new tech was only just coming back on stream, if we can limit tonnage is it almost worth limiting ECM per match?

[Wrathful-Khan]

THE ECM META-GAME

good one

[CaptainDeez]

Dazzer, on 28 May 2014 - 01:16 AM, said:

So using ECM to do what it was made to do is now ?

So the LRM boaters are not just happy to hide behind a rock and lock and rain. They want to nerf the only tool we have to counter you.

thats just sad.

What are you replying to? The QQ thread is next door.

For the record, I use a Stalker missile boat often. You'll find me at the front tagging everything whether I'm firing missiles or not.

Edited by CaptainDeez, 28 May 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[wanderer]

Pssh. ECM's biggest advantage isn't negating missile locks- it's negating awareness.

It's amazing how many people will miss an ECM platform on visuals alone- or worse, a group covered by an ECM platform. Then they get blown to bits. Doesn't take many kills like that to make ECM the swing vote in a match. TAG is effective for 'Mechs with integrated LRM racks, but NARC and UAV's are the superior ECM counters, as they're constant and don't require sitting there pointing a "KILL ME, I GUIDE LURMS" beam at the target.

The best ECM stoppers of all,IMHO are a light or medium with NARC. The Raven-3L is popular because it's good to begin with, but one of the biggest ECM-breakers I've known was a guy who piloted 55 tonners and mixed SRMs with a NARC, then took advantage of the resulting confusion to splatter the target quickly as every annoyed missile launcher in the place opened up on them.

[CaptainDeez]

Perhaps, but the narc is limited by it's ammo capacity, where as you can easily sweep the tag over multiple guys and cycle targets to report all posistions at once. Using it to guide missiles is just a bonus.

[Xavier]

Striker1980, on 28 May 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

My only concern is the volume of ECM, in the impoverished and technologically backwards 3050's new tech was only just coming back on stream, if we can limit tonnage is it almost worth limiting ECM per match?

Volume of ECM only 5 chassis out of all the mechs have the ability to equip ecm less than 3.5% of mechs have ECM ability. I have died plenty from LRM's since the patch to boost them went out much more than before the patch. I find it hard to beleive that you are complaining about such a limited ability to equip ECM, I personnally think ECM needs to be available on more mechs. TAG is a viable alternative this at least forces the missile boat to be visible in order to be able to launch it missiles which gives whatever it is shooting at a viable ability to fight back.

NERF ECM Really? Really?

Buehler Buehler, anyone Buehler?

[mailin]

Given the choice between UAV, Narc or TAG, my favorite, hands down is TAG. Granted UAV will light up all targets, but there are some real problems with it. 1. It can be shot down. 2. It takes a module slot and costs money. 3. It has limited range. 4. It has limited duration. 5. It fires wherever you are when you deploy it (zero range).

The problems with NARC are similar. 1. Limited by ammunition. 2. You must aim it and hit the target with an unguided missile. 3. You have to get in close.

Now tag has longer range than Narc or UAV. It is not limited by ammo nor is it a single use like the UAV. The only disadvantages to a tag are the 750m max range and the laser pointer. There are ways to greatly reduce the chance of being detected when using a tag, such as going behind the enemy and tagging their legs.

Another, in my view, major advantage of tag is that I can pick a single mech for the lrm boats to focus on. With a UAV it seems too often lrms will fly to several different targets. This is much less effective than the focus fire that results from a single mech being tagged.

Edited by mailin, 28 May 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[cleghorn6]

I don't see an argument for an ECM nerf anywhere here. I think ECM in terms of effectiveness and "fit" in matches is pretty good. My problem is when there are several ECM 'mechs on one team and none on the other. I also agree with wanderer that missile locks are the least of the beneficial effects of an ECM.

I had a couple of matches the other night with 3 ECM 'mechs on the opposing team and none on mine. Predictably both matches ended with my team being stomped down pretty hard. When your team is getting ganked by radar invisible groups of enemies, it's not a lot of fun.

For private matches or public 12's, go for it. You have the coordination there (or should) to manage the information warfare aspect. For PUGs, I think ECM should be a balancing factor for teams.

[wanderer]

ECM is basically the ability to stealth kill opponents.

While the ECM carrier might be a weaker chassis, it's their friends you worry about. A few Gauss snipes or the like and voila, your team is down 0-2 and the other team doesn't have a scratch. The usual snowball follows. PUGs don't see a red triangle, you may as well not be there and they're getting shot by ninja ghosts for all that they know.

Negating LRMs is just icing on the cake, as there's plenty of reasons the meta doesn't use LRMs anyway. AC/PPC/ERLL is top-tier, ECM cover is best cover, and if you want to win, mix with arty for best results and just kick PUGs around all day every day until you run into a group that is as smart as you are and uses ECM as well- and the counters are conditional vs. the constant benefit of ECM. The ideal counter to ECM is using nothing it can counter to begin with while running your own and relying on your eyeballs to spot targets, as sufficient ECM renders tracking anything with sensors meaningless. 3-4 'Mechs with it are quite enough to reduce most PUGs to stumbling morons, because apparently, actually looking for opponents is an elite+ pilot skill for most players.

I was just in a Frozen City match. The enemy team simply moved up with a few -D-DC's, and the PUGs didn't notice a thing until half of them were dead as the entire enemy team got to within 400m without any of them so much as turning. 0-12, as it should be in that case.

The only thing that keeps ECM from being used universally is the limited number of chassis. If there was a heavy with ECM, you'd see it in regular rotation, regardless of it's other performances. In fact, you -wouldn't- see many chassis played but for ECM, and that's why they originally got chosen- it was a way to get those chassis to be used to begin with. The rest is low-signal history.

[TVMA Doc]

The counter to ECM is direct fire weapons and cover. It is, however, not a complete counter if one team is loaded with ECM and LRMs and the other team has little/no ECM and tons of LRMs. I'm not sure why it tends to work that way more often than simple chance would suggest, but a lot of matches seem to "balance" out that way.

[ShinVector]

Been mastering my Mados.. And someone once told me that UAV is good for generating Mech XP and it is true..
Especially at 171KPH... I can successfully launch UAV right in a middle of an enemy group...
And if there happens to be 1 ECM there.. It will get negated too.

[TVMA Doc]

SLDF Xavier, on 28 May 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

Volume of ECM only 5 chassis out of all the mechs have the ability to equip ecm less than 3.5% of mechs have ECM ability. I have died plenty from LRM's since the patch to boost them went out much more than before the patch. I find it hard to beleive that you are complaining about such a limited ability to equip ECM, I personnally think ECM needs to be available on more mechs. TAG is a viable alternative this at least forces the missile boat to be visible in order to be able to launch it missiles which gives whatever it is shooting at a viable ability to fight back.

NERF ECM Really? Really?

Buehler Buehler, anyone Buehler?

Actually, TAG doesn't force the boat to be visible. Tag from one mech can be used by all boats. I've often run a Raven with tag and have been the only one exposed while lighting up targets for the LRM boats.

The biggest drawbacks to tag as the break to ECM are that it announces the presence of the tagging mech (very easy to walk the beam back to the source) and that it doesn't negate the denial of information. It's much easier for PUGs to coordinate when they can see. Even teams with dedicated coms can have trouble when the "fog of war" descends upon their minimaps", but with no verbal coms and no visual display it degenerates to only what each mech can see in front of them at that time.

It's much more difficult to coordinate any sort of attack or defense when you don't have information about what is happening. THIS is perhaps the biggest and most often overlooked advantage of ECM. It does require the ECM mech to be in close range, so there is a risk, but the reward is often well worth it.

[TVMA Doc]

ShinVector, on 30 May 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Been mastering my Mados.. And someone once told me that UAV is good for generating Mech XP and it is true..
Especially at 171KPH... I can successfully launch UAV right in a middle of an enemy group...
And if there happens to be 1 ECM there.. It will get negated too.

I have unlocked the trees but have never loaded up a UAV. Is it worthwhile enough to typically pay for the cost to purchase the consumable? In other words, does it generate enough extra CBills, not just XP, to pay for the match or are you just breaking even/paying for a match for the XP?

Until I stop buying enough MC to unlock mech bays, I've found CBills to be as valuable as XP so I prefer a continuous stream of both. I always assumed that the UAV would end up being too costly. Does it at least pay for itself?

[ShinVector]

TVMA Doc, on 30 May 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

I have unlocked the trees but have never loaded up a UAV. Is it worthwhile enough to typically pay for the cost to purchase the consumable? In other words, does it generate enough extra CBills, not just XP, to pay for the match or are you just breaking even/paying for a match for the XP?

Until I stop buying enough MC to unlock mech bays, I've found CBills to be as valuable as XP so I prefer a continuous stream of both. I always assumed that the UAV would end up being too costly. Does it at least pay for itself?

I am in the process of uploading this... Should take about an hour for youtube to process.
Ultimately profitted about 100K.

You decide whether the UAV helped win the match.
UAV launched at 3min 15sec... Must say.. the new UAV rewards are nice.

Edited by ShinVector, 30 May 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[wanderer]

ShinVector, on 30 May 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Been mastering my Mados.. And someone once told me that UAV is good for generating Mech XP and it is true..
Especially at 171KPH... I can successfully launch UAV right in a middle of an enemy group...
And if there happens to be 1 ECM there.. It will get negated too.

And you get a bonus when it negates ECM as well.

*waves* Told ya so!

UAV's also have the advantage that you can pop them up high enough that ECM can't stop them from seeing stuff. Jump up, launch the UAV and it'll spot everything under it- ECM has to get physically close enough to block it and altitude will prevent this. Generally, the only time it really does is if you do something like pop it from the bottom of a hill and someone higher up on it gets close enough to get it into their ECM bubble. A higher placed UAV generally gets better angles for seeing targets as well, so jumping (if you can) while deploying one is oft-helpful.

[TVMA Doc]

ShinVector, on 30 May 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I am in the process of uploading this... Should take about an hour for youtube to process.
Ultimately profitted about 100K.

You decide whether the UAV helped win the match.
UAV launched at 3min 15sec... Must say.. the new UAV rewards are nice.

Impressive piloting job on the Commando. Driving a light mech isn't as easy as it looks.

[L Y N X]

Dazzer, on 28 May 2014 - 01:16 AM, said:

So using ECM to do what it was made to do is now ?

So the LRM boaters are not just happy to hide behind a rock and lock and rain. They want to nerf the only tool we have to counter you.

thats just sad.

Ecm is only one of several counters to LRM's, let's see how many we can count?

LRM counters:
1. ECM
2. Range (>1000m or <180m)
3. Cover
4. AMS
5. fire LRM onto enemy LRM boats

Can any one think of any others?


To be fair, let us list the ECM counters?

ECM counters:
1. Counter ECM (ECCM)
2. Tag
3. PPC/ERppc
4. NARC
5. BAP
6. Seismic module

Are there any others?

So it looks like there are several counters to both ECM and LRM's, perhaps we as player need to adapt more and QQ less?