123 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

Prologue: A hero rises.

Once more the fields of battle lie strewn with the detritus of flame wars. Once more, like the hydra of legend, do bad threads with misplaced focus get struck down only for two or more to appear in their place. I take it now upon myself to take up the baton of wisdom and smite some ignorance up in this piece. It is a Quixotic endeavor I know but still I must try, because I care and mostly because as my signature says “I post better than you”.

What you are wrong about:

Well when it comes to balance in this game there is a great giant pink and polka dotted (F)Atlas in the room that most people studiously ignore in part or in toto. The primary issue is being ignored by many posters but worst of all by PGI itself. What is this issue?…. Well that’s what suspense is for (it’s the next section).

• · The point remains that the underlying issue is not Poptarting which is annoying yes but not the primary cause.
  
• · It is NOT a screwed up Meta again annoying but it’s a symptom not a cause.
  
• · It’s not the players pushing the boundaries of what can be done, human nature is not the problem, but the problem allows this trait to dangerously impact the fun of the game.
  
• · It’s not Pre-mades V. Pugs though many would like that to be the issue.
  
• · It’s not X weapon is OP/UP, though the real issue is largely responsible for the Charlie Foxtrot that individual weapon balance has become.
  
• · It’s not there are too many X type of mech on the battlefield… but again we see clustering because of the real problem.

The point is if you believe any of the above to be the “game breaking” problem, quite simply you are wrong. But it is ok, all of those are problems and should be addressed but most of them are surface problems and we are looking bag us a big fix here.



The Real Issue:

Ladies and gentlemechs, come one come all and see the problem time forgot (not to mention PGI). Without further ado I give to you the real problem with MWO: Perfect Pinpoint Convergence All the Time. This is the root, the source of heartache and the cause of such SNAFU’s as Ghost heat, Poptarting, high alpha heavy/assault meta, Gauss over nerf, low TTK, etc etc etc… without this one issue in the way a lot of the missteps and struggles with balancing would not only be unnecessary a lot of the “fixes” could be rolled back *cough* ghost heat *cough*.

This is the key issue because it affects everything else and breaks the premise of giant robots whose primary defense is to slough off armor. Perfect pinpoint accuracy with all weapons and no drawbacks for getting it is canon breaking, and as we are seeing is pretty game breaking as well. It renders many weapons scrub tier, forces a BS meta, and not only rewards but encourages boating.

Why is it still an issue:

3 words that make a 3 letter acronym. For whatever reason the developers have either alternatively ignored this issue or tacitly stated that it is working as intended. The arguments that are made are under the false assumption that perfect accuracy = more skill. That Fixed distance convergence, movement affected convergence, Cone of fire, et al. are in fact less e-sport viable. That is a bit of a fallacy because it make a false equivalency. All of those things would be a problem if MWO was supposed to be a twitch FPS, which MW isn’t supposed to be. Granted it could be done badly and be very random or done very well and create choices and different skill sets that require more than drag mouse and click to alpha.

But the issue goes unaddressed. Not all of the solutions are great, and fixing this won’t fix everything about game balance but it is the single biggest underlying problem driving the issues with weapons, balance, and meta. If you are talking about balance and not calling for this to be addressed you are in fact at least a little wrong.

Brief list of Proposed solutions: (The following are posted without explicit endorsement)

• Pre-match set convergence distance
  
• Limited Cone of Fire
  
• Convergence desync while moving/jumping
  
• Weapon fire delay.
  
• Reticle shake linked to movement speed/heat level

Edited by Agent of Change, 08 August 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[Deathlike]

Get used to it. They are struggling with the netcode/HSR as it is, so until they can make that work (because pinpoint was done in order to make "the netcode easier to deal with stuff"), then... good luck with that.

[FupDup]

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

...The arguments that are made are under the false assumption that perfect accuracy = more skill. That Fixed distance convergence, movement affected convergence, Cone of fire, et al. are in fact less e-sport viable. ...

I would argue that it's not about an issue of perfect accuracy so much as having control of your robot at all times. Basically, no "random" stuff like the current SSRM targeting system being applied to all weapon types.

The funny thing about this, though, is that there are many convergence solutions out there that maintain 100% player control at all times, without resorting to random elements. The reason some people resist convergence fixes is probably because of a false assumption that it would remove player control, which is actually entirely dependent on which solution you choose.


My favorite convergence solution of all is this one: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

Edited by FupDup, 28 May 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Mcgral18]

And the community has given many ideas on how to remedy it, with varying degrees of implementation difficulty and effectiveness.

Anyone remember HB's targetting computer overload? It doesn't affect individual weapons much, but when you start to rapid fire or alpha, you lose some accuracy.

Some of the issues also arise from hit detection. Apparently PGI can't make progressive convergence work. In that case, we have to change the FLD weapons. Make them less of an issue, either by removing the FLD, or by making them a very poor choice when the non PP FLD weapons close.

The ball is in PGI's court...but past experience says it will stay the same.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 May 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Hence why the following fixes are needed more than anything:

1 - Dynamic Precision Reduction (based on throttle %, heat %, and stability state)

2 - PPC damage arcing

3 - Variant-specific armor tweaking

4 - Cassette-style ACs (4-round bursts)

5 - Cooldown rework (slow down everything but standard SRMs and Pulse Lasers)

6 - ECM rework from a hard counter system to a soft counter system

Do the above and the game will be hugely improved, with much healthier gameplay.

[Agent of Change]

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I would argue that it's not about an issue of perfect accuracy so much as having control of your robot at all times. Basically, no "random" stuff like the current SSRM targeting system being applied to all weapon types.

The funny thing about this, though, is that there are many convergence solutions out there that maintain 100% player control at all times, without resorting to random elements. My favorite one of all is this one: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

You make a good point at least you phrase it better than i did. The major point here is that it could be done and it's not even being discussed by the development team, at least not so we can see it.

Edited by Agent of Change, 28 May 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

We didn't have pinpoint before arms could be locked to torso. Yes, it can be done, but arms locked to torso makes it significantly worse.

PGI has been given various ideas on how to address this very easily. Don't expect it to change anytime soon.

[Rhaythe]

I'm willing to bet the poptarting/front-loaded damage meta would drop significantly if kills were no longer tracked nor displayed anywhere - including the match results screen.

[Agent of Change]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 28 May 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

We didn't have pinpoint before arms could be locked to torso. Yes, it can be done, but arms locked to torso makes it significantly worse.

PGI has been given various ideas on how to address this very easily. Don't expect it to change anytime soon.

I agree, but hey i remember when we could drop with more than 3 friends and they changed that due to complaining. If we all get really loud about it we might at least get told it's our fault for misunderstanding how it's supposed to work and that everything is fine.

Ahh to dream big.

[CDLord HHGD]

Normally I think we are on separate sides of this issue, however, this is a good write-up and a good idea. Heck, I'll support it.

[Livewyr]

Pinpoint is a touchy subject with me..

At its face, it sounds terrible considering the balance of TT..(Armor values) but at the same time, the random hit location of TT was applied to mechs that were effectively standing still. Mechs now move in realtime, and can actually dodge things (or torso twist to spread the damage.)

Try to imagine fighting a circling light mech without convergence.. he runs around and tears up the big target, while the poor larger mech is trying to just clip the little mech with his weapons..


I can't see a solution to making larger mechs more survivable, without making lighter mechs near invincible, regarding convergence.
---------------

I might've considered a possible accuracy nerf to firing more than 2-3 weapons at a time, but the problem with that, is you just end up with people mounting 2 heavy weapons or three heavy weapons (like what we have now)

Removing weapon convergence would be a MASSIVE buff to the circle-jerk light mechs, one which I don't think is necessary considering their already healthy speed advantages, even with convergence.

[Mcgral18]

Livewyr, on 28 May 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Pinpoint is a touchy subject with me..

At its face, it sounds terrible considering the balance of TT..(Armor values) but at the same time, the random hit location of TT was applied to mechs that were effectively standing still. Mechs now move in realtime, and can actually dodge things (or torso twist to spread the damage.)

Try to imagine fighting a circling light mech without convergence.. he runs around and tears up the big target, while the poor larger mech is trying to just clip the little mech with his weapons..


I can't see a solution to making larger mechs more survivable, without making lighter mechs near invincible, regarding convergence.
---------------

I might've considered a possible accuracy nerf to firing more than 2-3 weapons at a time, but the problem with that, is you just end up with people mounting 2 heavy weapons or three heavy weapons (like what we have now)

Removing weapon convergence would be a MASSIVE buff to the circle-jerk light mechs, one which I don't think is necessary considering their already healthy speed advantages, even with convergence.

Pretty big buff to the SSRMs, SRMs and LB10x though.

[Agent of Change]

Livewyr, on 28 May 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Pinpoint is a touchy subject with me..

At its face, it sounds terrible considering the balance of TT..(Armor values) but at the same time, the random hit location of TT was applied to mechs that were effectively standing still. Mechs now move in realtime, and can actually dodge things (or torso twist to spread the damage.)

Try to imagine fighting a circling light mech without convergence.. he runs around and tears up the big target, while the poor larger mech is trying to just clip the little mech with his weapons..


I can't see a solution to making larger mechs more survivable, without making lighter mechs near invincible, regarding convergence.
---------------

I might've considered a possible accuracy nerf to firing more than 2-3 weapons at a time, but the problem with that, is you just end up with people mounting 2 heavy weapons or three heavy weapons (like what we have now)

Removing weapon convergence would be a MASSIVE buff to the circle-jerk light mechs, one which I don't think is necessary considering their already healthy speed advantages, even with convergence.

You are right it is not a situation without it's own dangers, BUT something should be done. My personal favorite is movement based desynch of weapons: Basically the faster you move towards your top speed the more individual weapons desynch off of you convergence point. But not randomly the start to move into a straight line off of their mount so at full speed instead of this:
..................................................................X X .....X
X you would see this kind of spread:................X

It wouldn't be random but it wouldn't be pinpoint and would dissuade the "always alpha" crowd a bit.

Edited by Agent of Change, 28 May 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[FupDup]

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

You are right it is not a situation without it's own dangers, BUT something should be done. My personal favorite is movement based desynch of weapons: Basically the faster you move towards your top speed the more individual weapons desynch off of you convergence point. But not randomly the start to move into a straight line off of their mount so at full speed instead of this: you would see this:
X X X
X you would see this kind of spread: X

It wouldn't be random but it wouldn't be pinpoint and would dissuade the "always alpha" crowd a bit.

I'm not sure that convergence penalties should be based on movement speed. Keep in mind that the vast majority of "exploitative" (for lack of a better word) builds are heavy and assault class mechs, which don't move particularly fast. Additionally, they usually come to a full stop before firing (hill humpers) or only have a very small amount of forward speed (poptarts, due to JJ thrust).

Basically, you'd unfortunately end up nerfing everybody except for the poptarts/hillhumpers packing huge alphas.

[Livewyr]

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

You are right it is not a situation without it's own dangers, BUT something should be done. My personal favorite is movement based desynch of weapons: Basically the faster you move towards your top speed the more individual weapons desynch off of you convergence point. But not randomly the start to move into a straight line off of their mount so at full speed instead of this:
..................................................................X X .....X
X you would see this kind of spread:................X

It wouldn't be random but it wouldn't be pinpoint and would dissuade the "always alpha" crowd a bit.

I could get behind a movement desync, but it would have to be very heavy at high speed.

[Shae Starfyre]

I think PGI will read this post.

[Agent of Change]

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

I'm not sure that convergence penalties should be based on movement speed. Keep in mind that the vast majority of "exploitative" (for lack of a better word) builds are heavy and assault class mechs, which don't move particularly fast. Additionally, they usually come to a full stop before firing (hill humpers) or only have a very small amount of forward speed (poptarts, due to JJ thrust).

Basically, you'd unfortunately end up nerfing everybody except for the poptarts/hillhumpers packing huge alphas.

Livewyr, on 28 May 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

I could get behind a movement desync, but it would have to be very heavy at high speed.

I'll answer you both at once. For the JJ's weapons should probably just not be firable while JJ's are active, but if we have to live with that then hows this. while using JJ's the desync snaps to the equivalent of max speed for that mech.

As for the slow v. fast mechs. you scale it to the max speed of the mech so an assault with a top speed of 55kph is at max desynch at 55kph, while a light mech with a max speed of 150kph is at 2/3rds desych when traveling at 100 kph.

It scales and stay fair to the role of mechs. your weapons are reliable BUT if you want to snipe at range be prepared to aim each one individually. It also has the side effect of making chassis with close mounted hard points more valuable.... Hunchie any one?

Edited by Agent of Change, 28 May 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[FupDup]

Agent of Change, on 28 May 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

I'll answer you both at once. For the JJ's weapons should probably just not be firable while JJ's are active, but if we have to live with that then hows this. while using JJ's the desync snaps to the equivalent of max speed for that mech.

As for the slow v. fast mechs. you scale it to the max speed of the mech so an assault with a top speed of 55kph is at max desynch at 55kph, while a light mech with a max speed of 150kph is at 2/3rds desych when traveling at 100 kph.

It scales and stay fair to the role of mechs. your weapons are reliable BUT if you want to snipe at range be prepared to aim each one individually. It also has the side effect of making chassis with close mounted hard points more valuable.... Hunchie any one?

Having throttle scale helps a little bit but ultimately does not solve the issue. Somebody humping a hill (of any weight class) is only going to be going a very low throttle % before making the shot.

If standing out in the open normally, a Highlander moving at 60% throttle won't be at risk as much as a Shadow Hawk or whatever moving at 60% of his own throttle. A Commando moving at 60% would almost certainly be obliterated.


Making guns unable to be fired while jumping is a bit too much of a "brute force" solution. It might end poptarting, but it also ends jump-brawling. Mediums and lights especially thrive on using their jets evasively during combat. I think that the fix to poptarting is mostly just some kind of convergence system in general (like Homeless Bill's, for example), and maybe some kind of adjustment to JJs themselves.

Edited by FupDup, 28 May 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Get used to it. They are struggling with the netcode/HSR as it is, so until they can make that work (because pinpoint was done in order to make "the netcode easier to deal with stuff"), then... good luck with that.

The sad thing is that the net code would be as obviously bad with with a bit of a scatter effect on shots, and if each shot was really multiple rounds you could walk across a target.

[Agent of Change]

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Having throttle scale helps a little bit but ultimately does not solve the issue. Somebody humping a hill (of any weight class) is only going to be going a very low throttle % before making the shot.

If standing out in the open normally, a Highlander moving at 60% throttle won't be at risk as much as a Shadow Hawk or whatever moving at 60% of his own throttle. A Commando moving at 60% would almost certainly be obliterated.


Making guns unable to be fired while jumping is a bit too much of a "brute force" solution. It might end poptarting, but it also ends jump-brawling. Mediums and lights especially thrive on using their jets evasively during combat. I think that the fix to poptarting is mostly just some kind of convergence system in general (like Homeless Bill's, for example), and maybe some kind of adjustment to JJs themselves.

It's not fully formed but your points are pitfalls to look at. As for the JJ's the one real argument for weapons turning off is that it is canon at least to TT. but forced max desynch while jumping almost certainly deals with the problem nicely i feel. Hill humpers on the other hand would be fine until somebody forces them to move through maneuver or at least that's the idea.