356 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Koniving, on 30 May 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

Well what used to keep players firing less at once was a lower threshold. 30 threshold means at most you can fire at once is 7 ML (28 heat) while stationary! You know how long it takes for 6 ML to cool even in a cold mech. That's without ghost heat. Meaning if you want to have better use of the weapons, you'd fire them one at a time, or 3 at a time even.

3 PPCs? 30 heat. 2 PPCs? That's 66.67% heat instantly. 1 PPC? That's 33.33% heat.
2 ER PPCs? 30 heat. (And since range is going to matter more, now, this is quite viable as ER PPCs will outperform even AC/5 and AC/2s at range). But it's entirely possible to fire 4 ER PPCs in 10 seconds with ease.

Want to experience 30 threshold? Next time you get a brand new mech 10 SHS, put it on the testing grounds with no changes. That's 40 (not 30, 40) threshold. Now take the time it cools off and cut it by half. That's DHS done right. How much can you alpha strike? Not much at all right? Even with half that cooldown time, would you dare spam your weapons all at once? Maybe sometimes, but never frequently.

Didn't require any cone of fire at all. Problem is we've been asking for that since closed beta.

Yeah, that would be great as well if we could go to a system like that, but they seem pretty set on their heat system so our only hope is that we can convince them on other ideas to both "fix the mistake" of the current heat system while at the same time giving use to equipment and pilot tree skills that otherwise have no use. We will just have to keep our fingers crossed.

[SgtMagor]

yes, the srms got some lovin. gonna miss smacking mechs with the Ac20 at near max range when I used one, but 540 meters sounds about right. med pulse have so many of tem in my inventory I might use them yet!, thx for the update.

[MischiefSC]

I brushed over this prior because the phone I was using is crap to try and post on this forum but -

All good stuff. Thank you, these are smart changes with a positive impact. It's not the total panacea for all that ails the world but it's a solid step in the right direction, it's simple and viable and all around positive stuff.

Please consider a longer cooldown on strikes though? It can literally be a race to get them deployed as everyone on both teams has at least 1. I've had plenty of matches where most the games damage was done by arty/airstrikes. With premium time and a hero/premium mech you're getting a 60% cbill bonus, so 80k per match isn't that big a deal.

Please keep these sorts of changes going though. Not to belittle the positive contribution this change makes but... it's about 6 months late. Again, really appreciate the changes, very happy to see balancing the game is a priority and being seriously reviewed but we've needed this for so long that the value of the change is lessened by the sheer ennui people have about the FLD meta. A lot of people just stop caring after a while when something is significantly broken.

Please consider some PPC changes. I absolutely get that taken by themselves PPCs can feel reasonably well balanced. In concept they're a solid weapon now. The fundamental issue though is synergy and hardpoint restrictions. This means that while PPCs are well balanced on, say, pure energy boats it really falls apart when combined with ballistics. Nerfing ballistics to resolve this creates its own problems.

With the range changes though, how about this as an alternative?

Increase the PPC minimum range to 120m and change its max range to 1.5x instead of 2.0x. This increases range falloff to make the weapon a solid *addition* to a more flexible weapon loadout but significantly changes its viability as a 1-2 punch weapon for sole use on poptarts vs brawlers or lights. Getting to 90m isn't that hard. 120m is, functionally, a full weapon cycle time for most weapons. This would essentially cut 1 'shot' off a retreating, jumping poptarts defense against a closing brawler before being reduced to just ACs or backup weapons. The range reduction makes it more viable to get to that 120m range with enough armor left to exploit it.

This leaves the damage/heat/projectile speed balance where it is (which, again, on its own isn't a bad place right now) while effectively buffing the ability of strikers to close successfully and exploit that minimum range. It doesn't destroy poptarting and the PPC/AC meta, it simply greatly narrows its advantage over lasers or missiles or any other loadout. It indirectly buffs lasers and missiles and re-affirms ACs as a brawling-midrange weapon and effectively pushes PPCs to where they should be - a medium-long range core weapon that requires a backup. If someone wants to snipe at long range, get the ERPPC. Otherwise a lone PPC isn't the ideal weapon for most mechs anymore.

[FireSlade]

I like the fact that the ACs are getting looked at and that SRMs are getting some buffs but my thing is that when ghost heat was added we all sifted to AC/PPC combos to skirt the penalties of ghost heat. Ghost heat penalizes hot running weapons but pretty much ignores most of the ballistic weapons; so to balance things why not come up with a system to curb the cold running weapons? What you do to 1 side (in this case we have 3 sides) you have to adjust the others in the same/similar way to the others to keep balance. *Hint, Hint Paul. We need recoil*

[Dan Nashe]

Goal of Artillery: Area Denial and positioning. Force enemy out of entrenched positions.

Problem: They are amazing direct fire weapons that are far, far better than any other module in the game. Hitting an enemy with just 3 shells is still 105 damage. That's 21 full duration ML beams. With no range limit. If you use them intelligently, the enemy cannot dodge them no matter how well they play.

Solution:
Halve the damage per shell. (Or reduce to 1/3)
Double (or triple) the duration of the bombardment (thereby doubling (or tripling) the number of shells).

This
(1) keeps the same graphic load (same # of shells per second)
(2) denies the area for a longer period of time - so you can better use it to deny a position or to pound an area to cover your advance.
(3) reduces the utility to just kill enemies.
(4) reduces the sheer number of games where people lose arms and legs to artillery without ever really getting shot by the enemy.
(5) reduces RNG: 6 shells doing 15 damage less likely to be game-deciding than two shells doing 40.
(6) creates an interesting gameplay dynamic: right now, once the shells start falling, it doesn't matter. You've taken the damage. Suck it up. There's no reason to react because most mechs can't change momentum fast enough at that point to evade the barrage before it stops. If you triple duration (reduce shell damage to 1/3, same # of shells / second) even an assault mech has time to make a real choice.

[WarOrk]

Artillery and Air Strikes are area DENIAL tools... unless you can only use them in Egypt along "denile".

What's next? Txtng Ur Posts 4 Us To R33d? Hooked on foniks?

GROANS

[Dan Nashe]

(I think all the changes are probably good changes. I just don't want to see even slower AC shells. Nerfs to extreme range are fine by me if the base range isn't changing. They're starting to feel like grenade launchers rather than canons already due to slow speed, which cuts into the aesthetic fun factor for me). I like small changes better than big changes too, especially with there being hope for SRMs. And the tighter spreads could really help.

[MajorFlack]

I wish the devs would stop tinkering with the weapons. After the big LRM change (a couple of changes ago) our group lost a lot of interest in the game. And honestly, they now seem like they were in closed beta. That was a big change that soured many of our players.


A/C pending changes: the A/C ranges as they are now, seem to counter PPC's to some degree. Seems like a nerf here will bring more PPC's into play because of the range they have (and unlimited ammo).

SRM's: Not really much of a change, only use them as a secondary weapon in a brawl. limited use due to the heat they generate.

Note to self > start generating heat efficient (ER)PPC builds to supplement the missile boat

If the objective is to provide more "fairness" then have 3 weapons. One each of an energy, ballistic, missile all with the same range.

[Goose]

Sean von Steinike, on 29 May 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

What light is stupid enough to slow down to get hit by a strike to begin with?

The ones capping and spotting like good teammates …

[FORGE88]

Damn, there goes my hopes of "they will never screw over the UAC's" lol.
Still always interesting to see how a new change pan's out interesting approach. I myself have been thinking this game needs more laser use, Reducing ghost heat effectiveness would of been my approach but hey nerf the ac = increase the want for lasers

[HUBA]

here are some ideas for the balance

AC should have its extended max range (x3) but it should be harder to hit on the extreme range. My suggestion is, continuously reduce the speed after optimum range so the projectile has a stronger fall off and you have to fire in a 30° angle to hit on max range.

For the laser my suggestion would be a chance of the fire duration. Small laser with a duration of 0.6s would hit as hard as a medium laser. (same damage over time) also large laser should have a longer duration (1.3s and 1.75s for ER-LL) so there are more focused on long range and a bit less useful in close range.

Also pulse laser should have a shorter duration so they would hit harder. maybe 2 pulses for a short pulse laser (SPL), 3 for a MPL and 4 for a LPL. With 0.25s delay between the pulses it would result in the following durations: SPL 0.25s, MPL 0.5s and LPL 0.75s. Again the large laser get a little nerf.

Arti and air strikes a to strong and should have a longer "life time". My suggestion here reduce the damage of the shells to 15 but increase the number to 30 (from 10) and the time to 15s so you can deny access an area. For the air strike maybe increase it to 3 strikes with 2-6s (random) delay between them. Also should it not count to the damage and kill count for the player this might make it less attractive in PUG games

And in general the cool down especially for long range weapons could be higher. So the sniping is a bit less effective.

[Armored Yokai]

i think decereasing the srm spread a bit more would make them viable or just revert them to their previous Closed Beta state,
the ac's could use that range nerf but increase the speed for each and finally give them less falling to make them more direct and pinpoint,
those Pulse lasers could use a faster reload rate i.e halve the fire rate but keep the heat the same

Edited by Armored Yokai, 31 May 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[Lily from animove]

sounds nice so far, the Large Pulse Lasers could have gotten a bit mroe range too, and flamers some kind of usability.

[Statius]

Another solution to the AC's could be to keep their 3x, but apply an exponential decrease in damage from 1x to 2x, so that 2x would be around 1/3, and much less and then drop off linearly from 2x to 3x. The shells would not look as silly, being visible yet without damage at 3x range, or disappearing after 2x.

Edited by Statius, 31 May 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[cSand]

Daisu Saikoro, on 28 May 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Some of you are so entitled in your action. Saying what needs, should or must be done. Be aware you only speak for yourself and others (no they arent just wrong) may have different ideas all together.

Get over yourselves. Your ideas, suggestions and opions are just that.

Anyway interesting changes. Curious to see how this changes the over all game.

THIS

[Nightmare1]

While I don't like seeing the ACs nerfed, I admit that it does make sense, especially in light of the Clans coming out next month.

That being said, why on earth nerf the AC/20? You already have to get pretty close to use it! Who in their right mind would waste shells beyond 500 meters anyways, before the nerf (Not enough damage return in exchange for the range)? Now I have to scoot my Hunchbacks in too close for them to be particularly effective - the game just got handed over to the PPC'ers and LRM'ers. Long before my AC/20s are in range, my Mech will be too badly damaged to brawl.

Also, while it makes sense to increase the spread of the strikes, it doesn't make sense to nerf them. Canonically, they were quite powerful! Since we are already spending 40,000 C-bills on the Improved ones (and MC on the Priorities), having their damage nerfed is a bit like having your dollar devalued while it's sitting in the bank. It would have been better to increase the store price before decreasing the overall damage delivered.

That being said, I suppose it will garner PGI a bit more money because now they just made the Accuracy modules a bit more viable than they were previously - I predict people will start equipping those more frequently.

Overall, the nerf could have gone much worse. Predictably, PGI made some changes that will result in the decline of certain builds - some of them very fun, non-metas. This is frustrating, but there were also some good changes made, especially with the lasers and SRMs. I suppose it doesn't matter much anyways, at this point, since the Clans are premiering next month and a large number of players will be abandoning their IS equipment and Mechs in favor of Clan Tech (I admit that I may be among them ).

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Quotes snipped for brevity only ... not trying to take things out of context.

Nightmare1, on 31 May 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

...strikes, it doesn't make sense to nerf them.

The only issue I have with strikes is that they can head shot a 'mech (and often do ... about 60% of my head shot kills are from strikes). Good (maybe lucky) direct fire should occasionally head shot you ... purely lucky AC/40s from the sky should not.

I don't think they do too much damage overall, but the overlapping splash damage seemed a bit random (I think increasing the spread will fix that). I would be perfectly OK with twice as many shells doing half as much damage each, spread over a pattern that minimized the chance of a medium 'mech taking damage from more than three splashes.

Quote

It would have been better to increase the store price before decreasing the overall damage delivered.

Balance cannot be achieved with cost, particularly now that you can directly buy CB with MC.

Quote

That being said, I suppose it will garner PGI a bit more money because now they just made the Accuracy modules a bit more viable than they were previously - I predict people will start equipping those more frequently.

No. With only 2-4 module slots available, two strikes will almost always be more useful than one tighter strike. Maybe if one accuracy module tightened the spread for both strikes ... maybe.

[Speerit Ward]

Does ANYONE ELSE realize that PPC maxrange is already 1080? Lowering AC5 maxrange to over 1200 does nothing to reduce a jumpsnipers effectiveness.

This weapon change does absolutely zero to the jumpsniping meta. It either wasnt their intention to combat the meta with this change, or they did a terrible job at it. Just putting that out there.


In order to breathe life back into this game, which is suffocating and becoming stagnant, It was and continues to be your specific responsibility to rejuvenate BRAWLERS and empower them to be capable of crushing snipers.

A sniper should be SCREWED if they ever get caught by a brawler. That not only balances the meta by making it easier to kill Scumbags like the DS and CTF, but it also balances the meta by causing them to think twice about positioning, and be capable of firing far less, as they have to stay more mobile.
A sniper that can maintain range while doing damage should STILL be a god on the battlefield. But one that allows himself to be caught either through his own error or superb movement by a brawler.... should be dead.


Currently, a Snipers ability to do such pinpoint damage so rapidly is prohibiting even the most well-armored brawlers from approaching. Even an atlas will lose half his mech by the time he gets close, if he gets close (Which is unlikely, since a sniper can backpedal at almost his forward speed)



2 Quick ideas on PPC's.

• They look like they mush damage over a large area because they disperse on impact. Make them do that. Not 10 damage in one tiny place. 10 damage splattered in a storm of nasty plasma. (This would probably be a nightmare to make work and would take 3 patches trying to fix)
  
• PPC heat mechanic. Add a little fillbar like the Gauss has, every time you fire, the fillbar goes up (%) and slowly empties. If you ever fill it all the way, one or both of the following occur.

-PPC jams, or rather, is disabled, until the barrel cools down to prevent damage. (Accelerated by submersion, even, but not affected by # of heatsinks. It's a local cool.)







-PPC takes a bit of damage to its own HP.
(You can even consider an override option, toggleable in the weapon grouping panel, which ends the lockout, at the expense of damaging the PPC)

This is supported by realistic mechanics, as the barrel would probably be stupid hot, and firing it as often as modern scumbags do would probably damage it.
It doesnt really have any support that i know of, in battletech/tabletop mechanics.

And also, it could unfortunately be argued that Lasers need the same treatment, based on the justification of a hot barrel... And lasers really dont need that kind of ****.





NEW TOPIC:
I'm sad to see the AC/20 take a nerf of any kind too, guys. The AC20 needs help, not harm done.
But lowering the MAX range of the 20 shouldnt hurt anyone. If you're firing your AC20 outside of 500 meters, you're using it wrong anyway. That change is moot.

Armored Yokai, on 31 May 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

the ac's could use ........ to make them more direct and pinpoint,

Quite possibly the worst idea in history. The last thing this game needs is anything relating to "More pinpoint"

SgtMagor, on 30 May 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

gonna miss smacking mechs with the Ac20 at near max range when I used one,

How well was that working for you? Because around max range, you were doing around 2 damage.

Edited by Speerit, 01 June 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Micheal Hessek]

Paul Inouye, on 28 May 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

I've seen this thrown around a few times now so let me respond to it.

There are a total of 9 different builds of MWO on my machine... all at varying stages of completion of new features.

In 7 of these specialized builds, I can turn on specific debug tools that allow me to see exactly what's happening in the game simulation which is something you will never be able to determine in production (live build). I can also dynamically tune things as the game is running in these builds which is also something that is impossible to do on the live servers.

I do play the game, just not on production where I don't have the tools that let me see exactly what's going on in the game engine. Plus I do randomly play now and then on production and I do spectate players quite a bit when I'm not at work.

And remember, PGI is not a huge company where I sit in my office isolated from the team and just messing about doing this or that. I'm very hands on with the dev team and don't have a lot of time to head up features and play the game during the average workday.

Paul,
I am satisfied with your involvement with your level of playtesting, forum monitoring and match monitoring.
This round of Balancing does show your team is working to improve the enjoyment of the MWO experience.
I one area that I will express a weapon system dynamic/functionality is the SRM with artemis as guided weapon simular to the current Streak SRM system. The Base SRM and Artemis SRM were always designed to be guided like LRM's with flat/straight-to-target flight path and not Dumb-Fire to point of inital aim. Dumb-Fire was made available with the intoduction of MRM's with lighter launchers.
Streak SRM's only benifit over Base SRM and Artemis SRM systems was originally that it would save on heat build-up by not allowing firing of launcher with-out clear line-of-sight and solid target lock. That level of Streak SRM functionality would be difficult to program into the online game system. But Streak SRM's with tighter groupings of strikes and the lack of launch without lock-on would provide the expected benefits of the original Streak SRM concept.

The speed of all SRM missiles needs to be increase to shorten flight to strike times. SRM's are always shown as shorter in length missiles and larger diameter bodies with nozzels that are about twice the size of LRM missiles, which should result in Faster Missiles. Missiles not un-guided rockets.

I wish you and the Dev team well in the future MWO projects.

[Wintersdark]

Speerit, on 01 June 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Does ANYONE ELSE realize that PPC maxrange is already 1080? Lowering AC5 maxrange to over 1200 does nothing to reduce a jumpsnipers effectiveness.

This weapon change does absolutely zero to the jumpsniping meta. It either wasnt their intention to combat the meta with this change, or they did a terrible job at it. Just putting that out there.

It wasn't their intention to combat the meta with this change. That's pretty obvious. This change was simply because ballistics were objectively better than energy weapons, to a pretty significant degree.

Quote

In order to breathe life back into this game, which is suffocating and becoming stagnant, It was and continues to be your specific responsibility to rejuvenate BRAWLERS and empower them to be capable of crushing snipers.

SRM's. The SRM issue is what will do this, and that's waiting on the Buckton fix. (lol@"Button fix")

Quote

2 Quick ideas on PPC's.

• They look like they mush damage over a large area because they disperse on impact. Make them do that. Not 10 damage in one tiny place. 10 damage splattered in a storm of nasty plasma. (This would probably be a nightmare to make work and would take 3 patches trying to fix)
  
• PPC heat mechanic. Add a little fillbar like the Gauss has, every time you fire, the fillbar goes up (%) and slowly empties. If you ever fill it all the way, one or both of the following occur.

Splash damage is bad in this engine. It's just incompatible with the way mech geometry and hit locations work - missiles used to do splash damage, and they had to disable it (rather, reduce the radius to what's effectively a pinpoint) because the complex mech geometry results in too many locations being hit, and the way splash damage works in MWO is that each location hit takes full damage (as per it's range from the impact center). This means that a single 2 damage blast against some mechs can do upwards of 12 damage in total.


Incidentally, this is one reason why artillery can do so much damage in total. It's less of a problem, because of how artillery works, but the long and short of it is:

We can't have splash damage weapons on our mechs.

Edited by Wintersdark, 01 June 2014 - 08:53 AM.