121 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhaythe, on 29 May 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Is it me, or does that look like a faded Henna Tattoo?

[Vertigo 1]

I support this idea fully. If the randomness of the arc/splash is a problem, just make the adjacent non-head components from the point of origin take the damage. Something like:

60% damage at impacted left torso component
20% damage to left arm
20% damage to center torso

[Eddrick]

Instant, pinpoint convergence is the root of the problem. By themselves instant and pinpoint convergence are not that big of a problem. Convergence needs to be delayed and/or not allowed to become pinpoint.

Think PPCs are bad now? Wait till we get the Heavy PPC and PPC Capasitor. Combined, they are the equivlent of 2 Standard PPCs for 11 Tons and 5 Critical Slots. Armor doesn't get much better as the Timeline goes on. But, weapons get better.

Edited by Eddrick, 30 May 2014 - 08:46 AM.

[Rhaythe]

IceCase88, on 29 May 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

I have not played Hawken but the people that have said it was pretty terrible and nowhere near as good as MWO.  I will ask them whether or not the random hit mechanic will bring it to Hawken level but I am doubting it based on their reactions.

Hawken is not a bad game. It's different. In honesty, the game looks great, handles well, and provides a very intense adrenaline rush. Downside is it's very simple, requires no tactics, has next to zero customization, and a very low learning curve. And it's very much not Mechwarrior. If that makes it "bad", well, then there's a reasoning problem somewhere. (At least that game has more than one game type)

Eddrick, on 30 May 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Instant, pinpoint convergence is the root of the problem.  By themselves instant and pinpoint convergence are not that big of a problem.  Convergence needs to be delayed and/or not allowed to become pinpoint.

I agree 100%. Pinpoint convergence IS the problem. But it's also not going to be fixed anytime soon. So if this game is going to be stuck with it, might as well try to make the best of it. Right now PPCs are just laser autocannons. There's nothing to differentiate them. I am all for ideas that make them unique, in-line with the flavor of the lore, and force them to require a little more skill to employ. If it's not damage-arching or whatever, then so be it. But right now, the PPC+AC meta is extremely stale and boring, and likely costing us new players.

[Eddrick]

Rhaythe, on 30 May 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Hawken is not a bad game. It's different. In honesty, the game looks great, handles well, and provides a very intense adrenaline rush. Downside is it's very simple, requires no tactics, has next to zero customization, and a very low learning curve. And it's very much not Mechwarrior. If that makes it "bad", well, then there's a reasoning problem somewhere. (At least that game has more than one game type)


I agree 100%. Pinpoint convergence IS the problem. But it's also not going to be fixed anytime soon. So if this game is going to be stuck with it, might as well try to make the best of it. Right now PPCs are just laser autocannons. There's nothing to differentiate them. I am all for ideas that make them unique, in-line with the flavor of the lore, and force them to require a little more skill to employ. If it's not damage-arching or whatever, then so be it. But right now, the PPC+AC meta is extremely stale and boring, and likely costing us new players.

Anything else, besides a fix to convergence is just a "Bandaid fix". Like, Ghost Heat and Gauss Rifle charge, are. I find it a little strange that we don't hear much about the Gauss Rifle, anymore. The charge isn't that hard to adjust to. Maybe, just because, you don't see it that much anymore.

[Rhaythe]

Eddrick, on 30 May 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Anything else, besides a fix to convergence is just a "Bandaid fix".  Like, Ghost Heat and Gauss Rifle charge, are.  I find it a little strange that we don't hear much about the Gauss Rifle, anymore.  The charge isn't that hard to adjust to.  Maybe, just because, you don't see it that much anymore.

Or maybe people realized it's not a hard mechanic to get the hang of. I actually prefer it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 30 May 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

The problem is you'll never see the K2 topping charts being the meta mech as stock. The reason is those arms. They are just so far apart! Their convergence is horrible. Try a Jester. Same problem. The only way to make the PPCs useful on them is to put them in the side torsos. Suddenly they start doing damage together. But it still isn't optimal. It is only twenty points of damage. Now if you could mount autocannons on there with them... Hoooo boy. Or clan ERPPCs.

The twenty points of damage isn't enough to be overwhelming. You have to cross the divide. You have to get to somewhere around 30 with a higher DPS backup weapon that is FLD for it to become a problem. The whole synergy issue, you know.

Now if they got rid of the 90 meter cutoff and went back to damage scaling on the vanilla PPC like we had before, I definitely bet you'd see a lot of 3x PPC Jesters running around. It'd actually be a manageable 'mech, since the PPCs wouldn't be spread an entire arms length apart. But, once again, we're back to thirty points.

I guess, to borrow another example... there is a reason the Dragon Slayer is considered 'meta and the other Victors are not. The Dragon Slayer has everything on one side of the chassis allowing for way better convergence.

Well I think Bishop's point is that any ol' 'Mech rocking a pair of PPCs isn't OP. Combining PPCs with 1-3 autocannons is where the real goodness comes in. I mean that alpha strike, combined with the DPS of autocannons at closer ranges is a pretty hard combo to beat.

I also don't think my HGN-733P with 2 PPCs and 2 ER LLs is meta by any means.

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 May 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Well I think Bishop's point is that any ol' 'Mech rocking a pair of PPCs isn't OP. Combining PPCs with 1-3 autocannons is where the real goodness comes in. I mean that alpha strike, combined with the DPS of autocannons at closer ranges is a pretty hard combo to beat.

I also don't think my HGN-733P with 2 PPCs and 2 ER LLs is meta by any means.

No, it isn't. Those ER LLs are hardly FLD.

The way I see it, the only way to fix the "meta" stagnancy is to remove FLD or pinpoint. One or the other. Changing range, etc. of PPC or AC weapons doesn't address either. So either you make ACs damage over time or PPCs damage over time (or splash damage weapons with progressive scaling) since PGI has been pretty clear they are going to do nothing about pinpoint.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 30 May 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

No, it isn't. Those ER LLs are hardly FLD.

The way I see it, the only way to fix the "meta" stagnancy is to remove FLD or pinpoint. One or the other. Changing range, etc. of PPC or AC weapons doesn't address either. So either you make ACs damage over time or PPCs damage over time (or splash damage weapons with progressive scaling) since PGI has been pretty clear they are going to do nothing about pinpoint.

I think the adjustment of non-FLD weapons could also fix the "meta" stagnancy, or at least go along way to make it not as prominent. Beam duration and heat decreases on lasers for instance. PPCs are heavier than LLs, so they should have an advantage, but reducing heat and beam duration could give lasers more of an advantage when compared to PPCs. Going PPCs or LLs is a tradeoff. PPCs have FLD, LLs are lighter, produce less heat, and are easier to aim (but harder to maintain on target). So, I argue that putting more weight on the LL's benefits could make FLD more balanced.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 30 May 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

The problem is you'll never see the K2 topping charts being the meta mech as stock. The reason is those arms. They are just so far apart! Their convergence is horrible. Try a Jester. Same problem. The only way to make the PPCs useful on them is to put them in the side torsos. Suddenly they start doing damage together. But it still isn't optimal. It is only twenty points of damage. Now if you could mount autocannons on there with them... Hoooo boy. Or clan ERPPCs.

The twenty points of damage isn't enough to be overwhelming. You have to cross the divide. You have to get to somewhere around 30 with a higher DPS backup weapon that is FLD for it to become a problem. The whole synergy issue, you know.

Now if they got rid of the 90 meter cutoff and went back to damage scaling on the vanilla PPC like we had before, I definitely bet you'd see a lot of 3x PPC Jesters running around. It'd actually be a manageable 'mech, since the PPCs wouldn't be spread an entire arms length apart. But, once again, we're back to thirty points.

I guess, to borrow another example... there is a reason the Dragon Slayer is considered 'meta and the other Victors are not. The Dragon Slayer has everything on one side of the chassis allowing for way better convergence.

And there we have it. 20 pts FLD is not enough. Dealing with Convergence = bad.

Which tells us what?

IT ISN'T THE PPC THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

And there we have it. 20 pts FLD is not enough. Dealing with Convergence = bad.

Which tells us what?

IT ISN'T THE PPC THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

But it is. If they got rid of ghost heat (which they should do), we'd see 4+ PPC boats again, overnight. If we had splash or some other mechanism added to the PPC, then we wouldn't need ghost heat at all--which would be paradise!

(and the physicist inside of us wouldn't have ulcers anymore)

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 30 May 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

But it is. If they got rid of ghost heat (which they should do), we'd see 4+ PPC boats again, overnight. If we had splash or some other mechanism added to the PPC, then we wouldn't need ghost heat at all--which would be paradise!

(and the physicist inside of us wouldn't have ulcers anymore)

we also would find no one using them again, just like in CB. So.....I don't agree. If the weapon itself is not OP, and the PPC is not, one needs to address the mechanics that are the problem.

Since CB, the problem is and has been Boating combined with perfect convergence. Until those are addressed, it it's not PPCs, something else will fill the place, or we will end up with all weapons either Spread Damage or DoT and MWO becomes even more boring.

And what does it do to the mechs that run a single PPC? Now it is nearly useless for its weight and heat. Why in the heck would I run one on my Griffin anymore?

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 30 May 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

But it is. If they got rid of ghost heat (which they should do), we'd see 4+ PPC boats again, overnight. If we had splash or some other mechanism added to the PPC, then we wouldn't need ghost heat at all--which would be paradise!

(and the physicist inside of us wouldn't have ulcers anymore)

I have never ran a quad PPC without ghost heat, but I would imagine that is still pretty hot isn't it?

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I have never ran a quad PPC without ghost heat, but I would imagine that is still pretty hot isn't it?

Yes, very hot! But the 2x ERPPC + 2x PPC Stalker was a pretty nasty platform over a year ago.

Or what about the Gauss + 2x ERPPC + 1x PPC Highlander. Talk about God's hand coming down and smashing people. Before ghost heat and PPC heat increases that 'mech was a monster.

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

And what does it do to the mechs that run a single PPC? Now it is nearly useless for its weight and heat. Why in the heck would I run one on my Griffin anymore?

Okay, that is valid. Nobody would.

But how can we ever get PGI to address convergence? I think we both agree that's the real problem. In fact, the only reason any of us are coming up with these ghetto solutions is because PGI won't do anything about the true issue so the best we can hope for is some sort of .xml file edit solution.

[IceCase88]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

we also would find no one using them again, just like in CB. So.....I don't agree. If the weapon itself is not OP, and the PPC is not, one needs to address the mechanics that are the problem.

Since CB, the problem is and has been Boating combined with perfect convergence. Until those are addressed, it it's not PPCs, something else will fill the place, or we will end up with all weapons either Spread Damage or DoT and MWO becomes even more boring.

And what does it do to the mechs that run a single PPC? Now it is nearly useless for its weight and heat. Why in the heck would I run one on my Griffin anymore?

I agree entirely with his point. Nerfing individual weapons as the meta changes is not the answer. All you do is make them useless to use by themselves. People will just move onto the next weapon system and boat them. Ghost heat is not the answer either. The only 100% answer to every single problem is the SSRM mechanic for all weapons. If they can tune it a bit so the hit pattern is not as ridiculous as SSRMs it would work and most people would be happy. All weapons can be reset to original values and we would not have to worry about boating or high pinpoint alphas anymore. There is still a chance a high pinpoint alpha can kill a mech but it is entirely remote.

[Mcgral18]

IceCase88, on 30 May 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

I agree entirely with his point. Nerfing individual weapons as the meta changes is not the answer. All you do is make them useless to use by themselves. People will just move onto the next weapon system and boat them. Ghost heat is not the answer either. The only 100% answer to every single problem is the SSRM mechanic for all weapons. If they can tune it a bit so the hit pattern is not as ridiculous as SSRMs it would work and most people would be happy. All weapons can be reset to original values and we would not have to worry about boating or high pinpoint alphas anymore. There is still a chance a high pinpoint alpha can kill a mech but it is entirely remote.

That seems like a silly solution.

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 30 May 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Yes, very hot! But the 2x ERPPC + 2x PPC Stalker was a pretty nasty platform over a year ago.

Or what about the Gauss + 2x ERPPC + 1x PPC Highlander. Talk about God's hand coming down and smashing people. Before ghost heat and PPC heat increases that 'mech was a monster.

I think if you removed Ghost heat, those builds would still be too hot to viably compete with combined ballistics and PPCs at the assault build level.


The only thing it might do, is let a few more mechs in the door - but out of those non-JJ chassis only a few have high enough mounted hardpoints to actually make that work for ridge humping.

[Xoxim SC]

Very good and interesting idea. I approve! Add a slight charge time to it as well

[Wolfways]

Rhaythe, on 29 May 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Maybe this has been brought up. Maybe it hasn't. Eh well. Here we go.

PPC's are, in essence, man-made lightning. And yet, their portrayal in-game is of point-point damage delivery. Thus the current meta.

However, do a google search on damage inflicted by lightning strikes to the human body:


Heck, just look at the PPC blasts in-game:


Obviously, neither look even close to coalescing to a single point. Even the blast itself is a stream of pulsing energy strands. So why not have the PPC blasts scatter across an area of a mech starting slightly off-center of the target point and skewing in a random direction?


This maintains the power of the PPC, keeps with the lore of it being a lightning-based weapon, and is a passive nerf to the pin-point damage meta currently dominating the game.

Okay. You may now start flaming me.

If you want to be realistic the beam should also travel at near the speed of light.

[3rdworld]

I think we are confusing how splash actually works (or how we would want it to work in the case of the PPC).

If we went with 5/5, it would be 5 to the component impacted then 5 spread over whatever the area is, lets say 4m for the sake of argument.

So if you hit the shot right next to the boundary of 2 components, it would likely do 7.5 to the impacted component 5 direct + 2.5 splash, and the other 2.5 would be applied to a secondary component. This is a difference of 25 damage to a component with current meta vs 30.

So what does it accomplish? It would have much more reaching results for smaller mechs. The splash would could hit 3 components and the location that took fire would take much less. Against large assault mechs, PPCs would still be nearly as effective. It would make PPCs the opposite of Streaks, which are darn near pointless to shoot at heavies & assaults, PPCs could be balanced in a way that they are not all that great for killing lighter mechs. It would also increase the skill required, as you wouldn't be trying to just hit a component, but hit it in the middle furthest away from others.

This coupled with 3/3/3/3 (if it ever comes) would help ease the potency of pinpoint alphas on mechs that don't have the armor, while leaving them effective at killing larger mechs.