121 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

possibly but with this i disagree with keeping the minimum range anymore. would be too weak for their heat imo

10 damage for 10 heat, while still being able to place those 10 points on the same hitbox at its optimal range? I'm not too sure.

ERPPC...yeah, I haven't really thought about that.


Fixing convergence would be much nicer.

[Pjwned]

IceCase88, on 29 May 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Most of these ideas are way to overly complicated and probably difficult to implement. Especially when you are talking about splash damage which has been a thorn in PG's rear end. The key to ending the metas and high pinpoint alphas is instituting a random hit mechanic like in TT and how SSRMs currently function. It is the only option which is proven to work and currently implemented in the game. Using it for all weapons should be fairly easy to do and it will end all of these calls for nerf this, buff that, and change the meta. It would end the ridiculous ghost heat, the stupid gauss charge, and all the QQing about high pinpoint alphas. They could even lower armor values a bit. The random hit mechanic would solve weapons convergence issues and high pinpoint alphas immediately and end the dreadful meta. Weapons values can return to normal and the devs won't get bogged down in weapons balancing, buffing, fixes, and nerfing. You say, "But I want to hit what I am aiming at."... then you are for high pinpoint alphas, constant demands for weapons buffing, nerfing, and fixes. Changing the PPC into another LBX is not the answer. Heck, it should probably even solve the hit registration problems seeing as SSRMs seem to function pretty well.

I'm not a fan of this, might as well go play Hawken if where you're aiming doesn't matter.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 29 May 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

For how heavy it is and how much heat it generates I'm not sure I agree with those numbers; don't forget that its travel time is not instant, so as much as people like to **** on it for its prevalence in pop-tart meta it's not always just pure easy mode because it can and does miss.

I think that doing 70% of its damage on the first component would be reasonable, and then 15% damage for 2 other components that are not the head.

I am not fond of these head-protecting "force fields". All of them should be removed. The cockpit is as valid a target as any as far as I am concerned and therefore should not be given any special consideration.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

I am not fond of these head-protecting "force fields". All of them should be removed. The cockpit is as valid a target as any as far as I am concerned and therefore should not be given any special consideration.

The problem is that the head is otherwise very hard to hit for any real amount of damage on pretty much any mech unless a RNG artillery shell strays there and kills you instantly, which is about as lame as it can get by the way.

If PPC splash damage was able to easily hit the head with no additional skill required from players then it would need to be a consistent risk from other weapons, otherwise it would just cause problems as being the best headshot weapon by far.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 29 May 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

The problem is that the head is otherwise very hard to hit for any real amount of damage on pretty much any mech unless a RNG artillery shell strays there and kills you instantly, which is about as lame as it can get by the way.

If PPC splash damage was able to easily hit the head with no additional skill required from players then it would need to be a consistent risk from other weapons, otherwise it would just cause problems as being the best headshot weapon by far.

At 15% splash damage to a random location, it will still take a while to destroy the cockpit. Of course, if you removed armor from your head, then you deserve to die much sooner .

As for artillery strikes to the head, I say "Tough!". A 10-inch shell should obliterate you on a direct hit to your face. There is a reason artillery damage is being reduced to only 35.

Edited by Mystere, 29 May 2014 - 08:43 PM.

[El Bandito]

At this point, I just wish the devs to move their buns and test all feasible ideas on their test servers. They might strike gold.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

At 15% splash damage to a random location, it will still take a while to destroy the cockpit. Of course, if you removed armor from your head, then you deserve to die much sooner .

As for artillery strikes to the head, I say "Tough!". A 10-inch shell should obliterate you on a direct hit to your face. There is a reason artillery damage is being reduced to only 35.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with splash damage hitting the head if other weapons could consistently hit the head to somewhere even close as often as the PPC would. Give me a good reason why PPCs should have special treatment by having easymode damage to the cockpit, and then after that you can say it was somebody's fault for lowering their head armor too much.

As for strikes, I find it lame when RNG decides whether or not I instantly die with no recourse in a 50m radius, so your "Tough!" response makes me just think you're a moron.

[Coralld]

Why are we talking about splash damage for the Lighting Arc mechanic? The Lightning Arc mechanic DOESN'T splash or need to splash. Have a system set in place so that say for example a PPC strikes a mech in the CT with at least 5 to 6 damage will be delivered in FLD form where as the remaining damage is diverted into adjacent areas, the LT and RT. If the PPC strikes say the RT, then the Arcing damage is delivered to the CT and RA. Very simple. Or you can make the Arcing points random.
As you can see, you don't need the traditional splash mechanic.

Also, PGI has stated that they will not change pinpoint convergence. So that's off the table. Not to mention I have read all sorts of ideas on how to change the way convergence works, such as cone of fire, returning to the way convergence worked in CB, recoil, manual convergence, etc. The problem is that these ideas mean well, but I can point out a laundry list of problems in where you are creating new issues and or simply replacing existing problems for another.
So in short, more complicated than simply changing the way PPCs and ACs behave, that, and PGI already said no. But still, good effort by the community.

[Mystere]

Coralld, on 29 May 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Why are we talking about splash damage for the Lighting Arc mechanic?

In this particular case, I think "splash" is just synonymous to "arcing".

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

In this particular case, I think "splash" is just synonymous to "arcing".

Due to some having nightmares of SplatCats, it's best to avoid that word around here.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 29 May 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with splash damage hitting the head if other weapons could consistently hit the head to somewhere even close as often as the PPC would. Give me a good reason why PPCs should have special treatment by having easymode damage to the cockpit, and then after that you can say it was somebody's fault for lowering their head armor too much.

Actually, it is you who should give a very good a reason why cockpits should be afforded special treatment.

As for things being "easymode", did you even do the math?

And finally, just because you cannot consistently make head shots does not mean no one else can. It just smacks of arrogance on your part.

(See, I also know how to hurl an insult.)

Pjwned, on 29 May 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

As for strikes, I find it lame when RNG decides whether or not I instantly die with no recourse in a 50m radius, so your "Tough!" response makes me just think you're a moron.

00:00:18.0

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

Due to some having nightmares of SplatCats, it's best to avoid that word around here.

Is that similar to the reason why people are experiencing psychological trauma with regard to poptarts (i.e. MW4)?

Edited by Mystere, 29 May 2014 - 09:45 PM.

[Coralld]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

In this particular case, I think "splash" is just synonymous to "arcing".

Perhaps, but its inaccurate and very misleading.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Is that similar to the reason why people are experiencing psychological trauma with regard to poptarts (i.e. MW4)?

Well, they do have a hefty advantage when it comes to expose, and risk VS reward.

At least the splatcats had to get close. Now if the splatcat countered the poptarts....what a game that could be.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Actually, it is you who should give a very good a reason why cockpits should be afforded special treatment.

The head is hard to hit, and rightfully so, because in all but the smallest of mechs it's the least durable component and taking it out means instant death, so if you have a weapon system that practically bypasses the difficulty of hitting the head then that's extremely lame.

Quote

As for things being "easymode", did you even do the math?

You hit somebody somewhere on their mech and it magically does damage to the head, that doesn't sound like it takes much skill to damage the head.

Quote

And finally, just because you cannot consistently make head shots does not mean no one else can. It just smacks of arrogance on your part.

(See, I also know how to hurl an insult.)

I don't really consider a laser grazing the cockpit to be consistent head shots, and yes I do actually have a hard time believing that anybody makes consistent headshots that do any notable damage unless your target is standing still or something.

Quote

00:00:18.0

That's cute and all, but if you're going to respond to that point I would like a real argument that has to do within the scope of the VIDEO GAME that we're talking about, and not real life which has nothing to do with it.

[Alex Warden]

Rhaythe, on 29 May 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Maybe this has been brought up. Maybe it hasn't. Eh well. Here we go.

PPC's are, in essence, man-made lightning. And yet, their portrayal in-game is of point-point damage delivery. Thus the current meta.

However, do a google search on damage inflicted by lightning strikes to the human body:


Heck, just look at the PPC blasts in-game:


Obviously, neither look even close to coalescing to a single point. Even the blast itself is a stream of pulsing energy strands. So why not have the PPC blasts scatter across an area of a mech starting slightly off-center of the target point and skewing in a random direction?


This maintains the power of the PPC, keeps with the lore of it being a lightning-based weapon, and is a passive nerf to the pin-point damage meta currently dominating the game.

Okay. You may now start flaming me.

and then what? 5 PPC´s will still core your with 2-3 alphas at MOST(damagezone overlap not counted in)... and ppl will still cry for a nerf... what then? randomize hit location for PPC´s ? tune the damage down to 5 + spread it?

CONVERGENCE... will not happen, i know... than at least make all torso mounted weapons FIXED... no multi-pinpoint, skill needed, know which single gun to fire when and aim with it seperately....

and then what? ppl will cry that "it´s too hard"...

[IceCase88]

@Coralld. They have been known to "change their minds" on some things they were preciously against. Coolshot and 3PV come to mind right now. If going to the SSRM hit mechanic solves so many problems (HSR, hit reg, high pinpoint alphas, weapons convergence, weapons buffing, weapons fixing, weapons nerfing, etc.) why not do it? It only makes sense. It will also condense all the QQing into one subject which would really be nice. Look at all the assets, resources, energy, and time that can be diverted to pushing out content. It sounds like win-win to me.

I have not played Hawken but the people that have said it was pretty terrible and nowhere near as good as MWO. I will ask them whether or not the random hit mechanic will bring it to Hawken level but I am doubting it based on their reactions.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 29 May 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

The head is hard to hit, and rightfully so, because in all but the smallest of mechs it's the least durable component and taking it out means instant death, so if you have a weapon system that practically bypasses the difficulty of hitting the head then that's extremely lame.

You seem to be completely forgetting -- or conveniently ignoring -- all of the posts that complained about people's favorite mechs being easy to head shot, causing PGI to adjust head hitboxes.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

You seem to be completely forgetting -- or conveniently ignoring -- all of the posts that complained about people's favorite mechs being easy to head shot, causing PGI to adjust head hitboxes.

I can't recall that happening after I started playing even though I've been browsing the forums plenty, so I'm just going to go with "not aware." Even if that was a thing, I'm not sure why you bring it up; they adjusted the head hitboxes because people complained they were too big, but I don't see what that has to do with the topic.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 May 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

OR..... we could let the best energy weapon in the game be the best energy weapon in the game. It is tied for the heaviest, and is lighter then auto cannons because it generates buckets of heat in comparison. I don't understand why PPCs are the culprit here. ACs are far more dangerous.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Personally, I'm pretty tired of people pinning all the woes on PPCs, when it's the perfect convergence and pinpoint aim no matter what you are doing that are the culprits to most weapon balancing issues. The day I see near stock K2s consistently topping the charts and being the Meta Mech, is the day I will believe PPCs are OP.

The problem is you'll never see the K2 topping charts being the meta mech as stock. The reason is those arms. They are just so far apart! Their convergence is horrible. Try a Jester. Same problem. The only way to make the PPCs useful on them is to put them in the side torsos. Suddenly they start doing damage together. But it still isn't optimal. It is only twenty points of damage. Now if you could mount autocannons on there with them... Hoooo boy. Or clan ERPPCs.

The twenty points of damage isn't enough to be overwhelming. You have to cross the divide. You have to get to somewhere around 30 with a higher DPS backup weapon that is FLD for it to become a problem. The whole synergy issue, you know.

Now if they got rid of the 90 meter cutoff and went back to damage scaling on the vanilla PPC like we had before, I definitely bet you'd see a lot of 3x PPC Jesters running around. It'd actually be a manageable 'mech, since the PPCs wouldn't be spread an entire arms length apart. But, once again, we're back to thirty points.

I guess, to borrow another example... there is a reason the Dragon Slayer is considered 'meta and the other Victors are not. The Dragon Slayer has everything on one side of the chassis allowing for way better convergence.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 May 2014 - 08:29 AM.