121 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

The PPC/AC5 meta in its current form is a BIG part of why mediums don't get played.

Medium's mobility and maneuverability counts for exactly jack squat when there is 0 damage spread.

Their fast torso twist speed doesn't mean anything when 1 hit taken from the meta blows off or rips all armor from limbs and torso sections in 1 hit without any chance to spread that damage out.

Take into account the newest DERP mech, the Banshee-3e. capable of doing 35/40 (or 45 if you like suicide) dmg alpha strikes.
Now look at a mech like the blackjack or Hunchback who typically have 38-40 armor on their front torso's 8-10 on rear, one 35 dmg hit and their armor is either gone or a few points away from being stripped, and the next hit is a killshot and thats on a front hit.

Then, add to it the current MM system where you can have as many of these mechs on the field on the same team as you want, and you get lots of 12-0 games, frustrated players, and nobody playing a medium that can't load up PPC/AC meta themselves.

PPC's on their own isn't really a huge problem, but that combined with the 2xAC5 has made weapons actually intended for sniping (gauss) completely obsolete at the cost of only 1 more ton.

Then top it off with Glitchy animations and poor hitregistry on Mechs with jumpjets.. yawn.. ggclose easy button.

Edited by Mister D, 29 May 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Khobai]

welcome to 6 months ago when ppc damage arcing was first suggested

[Mystere]

Rhaythe, on 29 May 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

PPC's are, in essence, man-made lightning. And yet, their portrayal in-game is of point-point damage delivery. Thus the current meta.

I don't know about you, but I have had the chance to inspect a few lightning "blast areas" while they were still smoking. And all of them had one thing in common. The size of the charred area looks pinpoint enough for me.

[Ultimax]

Mister D, on 29 May 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

I always found it funny that 2 PPC gives better heat management score than 2 ERLL.

From Smurfy's

Stalker 3F
300 STD
DHS (10)

2x ER LLAS = 50% cooling efficiency (4 HPS vs. 2 HPS)
2x PPC = 40% cooling efficiency (5 HPS vs. 2 HPS)


This is before you take into consideration the 2x ER LLAS version has 4 spare tons for more DHS vs. the PPC version.


So I'm not sure where you see that the 2x PPCs have a better heat management score.

[Rhaythe]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I don't know about you, but I have had the chance to inspect a few lightning "blast areas" while they were still smoking. And all of them had one thing in common. The size of the charred area looks pinpoint enough for me.

I had a lightning bolt hit in my backyard. It left a 4-foot by 7-foot char in the grass, plus several streaking scars through the tree nearby, plus came inside the house and struck the microwave and set it on fire. Oh. And made the dog leave a puddle on the living room carpet. Wasn't pinpoint that night. =D

[Cyborne Elemental]

From the ingame mechlab, 2xppc always shows a slightly higher heat management score than loading 2xERLL, probably a glitch, but check it out yourself.

Smurfy's is always right on, I just don't always prebuild in that mechlab when I got a game up and going.

[Mystere]

Rhaythe, on 29 May 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I had a lightning bolt hit in my backyard. It left a 4-foot by 7-foot char in the grass, plus several streaking scars through the tree nearby, plus came inside the house and struck the microwave and set it on fire. Oh. And made the dog leave a puddle on the living room carpet. Wasn't pinpoint that night. =D

Which goes to show that not all lightning strikes are equal.

[Rhaythe]

Mystere, on 29 May 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Which goes to show that not all lightning strikes are equal.

Except in their ability to say, "Eff you!" to whatever they find.

[Eddrick]

Since we are dealing with, "Man made Lightning". Does, that mean I can make a shot arch around cover to hit someone behind it.

Also, Arm Shielding would be less usefull. Because, your Arm isn't absorbing all of the damage.

I thought, we wanted to increase TTK. Not, make Damage harder to defend against and lower the skill cap. Because, you can still do damage to vulnerabe areas without perfect aim.

Edited by Eddrick, 29 May 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

What about having them hit-scan with a shorter beam duration than Pulse Lasers? Along with tweaks to range, that might be enough to differentiate them from Ballistic weapons.

Spoiler

ERPPC

• 10 Damage
  
• 0.1 to 0.5 Beam Duration
  
• 690 Range, 1380 Max

ERLL

• 8 to 9 damage
  
• 0.7 to 1.0 Beam Duration
  
• 570 Range, 1140 Max

PPC

• 10 Damage
  
• 0.1 to 0.5 Beam Duration
  
• 540 Range, 1080 Max

LL

• 8 to 9 damage
  
• 0.7 to 1.0 Beam Duration
  
• 450 Range, 900 Max

LPL

• 9 to 10.6 damage (could have multiple pulses such as two 4.5 or three 3 damage and so on)
  
• 0.3 to 0.6 Pulse Duration
  
• 350 Range, 700 Max

Then tweaking heat and cooldown could then be considered to further modify them as necessary.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 29 May 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

PPCs should never be hitscan. Let's stamp that out right now.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Praetor Knight, on 29 May 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

What about having them hit-scan with a shorter beam duration than Pulse Lasers? Along with tweaks to range, that might be enough to differentiate them from Ballistic weapons.

Spoiler

ERPPC

10 Damage

0.1 to 0.5 Beam Duration

690 Range, 1380 Max

ERLL

8 to 9 damage

0.7 to 1.0 Beam Duration

570 Range, 1140 Max

PPC

10 Damage

0.1 to 0.5 Beam Duration

540 Range, 1080 Max

LL

8 to 9 damage

0.7 to 1.0 Beam Duration

450 Range, 900 Max

LPL

9 to 10.6 damage (could have multiple pulses two 4.5, three 3 damage and so on)

0.3 to 0.6 Pulse Duration

350 Range, 700 Max

Then tweaking heat and cooldown could then be considered to further modify them as necessary.

It's a question of mechanical variety. Do you want to turn PPCs into glorified lasers? If so, the particle stream and hitscan beam options are a great way to do it. Do you want to keep them as energy-slot autocannons? Then leave them how they are. Do you want to make them a unique and interesting weapon system that would have some advantages over laser mechanics without making them energy-ACs? Then maybe damage arcing is the option for you.

Personally, I think leaving them as they are is untenable, especially if PGI doesn't implement some kind of dynamic precision reduction mechanic. I also think turning them into glorified lasers would kill their flavor. I'd much rather see some kind of arcing mechanic added to PPCs than any other option I've seen proposed on these forums. It'd retain much of the FLD flavor of the current PPC while reducing the pinpoint volley fire effect of the current mechanic, without making them a re-skinned laser or delving once more into the dangerous waters of PGI/Cryengine splash damage.

[Rhaythe]

Unfortunately, most of the community probably doesn't give a crap about the "flavor" or "lore" of the PPC. They just want their insta-gib.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 May 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

PPCs should never be hitscan. Let's stamp that out right now.

Oh, please give me 0.1s duration hitscan "streaming" PPCs...

[Eddrick]

If someone wants to use, "Needing to hit the same spot more. Takes more skill". Wouldn't that same end be met by reducing the PPC's damage? Instead, of adding a mechanic to force the damage to spread.

Edited by Eddrick, 29 May 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

verybad, on 29 May 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Because the Awesome needs a buff. That gives it something that other mechs don't have, currently it's a POS, and nobody uses it for what it was famous for. (if at all)

Why should the Awesome (or any mech for that matter) have some specialty goody that breaks the rules?

The obvious fix is to get rid of the mechanic that's borking it to begin with (ie: ghost heat) which fixes several other mechs at the same time and diversifies the game far more than it is now.

The PPC issue is something completely unrelated to a specific chassis and requires balancing outside the scope of Ghost Heat if there's ever going to be any real balance in the game.

Ghost Heat was nothing more than a band-aid being used to staunch a gaping wound. It's success has been as expected.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 29 May 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

It's a question of mechanical variety. Do you want to turn PPCs into glorified lasers? If so, the particle stream and hitscan beam options are a great way to do it. Do you want to keep them as energy-slot autocannons? Then leave them how they are. Do you want to make them a unique and interesting weapon system that would have some advantages over laser mechanics without making them energy-ACs? Then maybe damage arcing is the option for you.

Personally, I think leaving them as they are is untenable, especially if PGI doesn't implement some kind of dynamic precision reduction mechanic. I also think turning them into glorified lasers would kill their flavor. I'd much rather see some kind of arcing mechanic added to PPCs than any other option I've seen proposed on these forums. It'd retain much of the FLD flavor of the current PPC while reducing the pinpoint volley fire effect of the current mechanic, without making them a re-skinned laser or delving once more into the dangerous waters of PGI/Cryengine splash damage.

I like the idea of the arcing mechanic actually.

But for me it's all about what can be reasonably setup, since there is enough evidence to suggest that some sort of change is worth exploring at this point.

Since the main limiter is the Cryengine, the devs need to work within the limits of the engine; which is why I mention the alternative of using the hit-scan mechanic since it already works. If the cryengine can't handle what the devs are trying to code with the arcing/splash mechanic, then they would need to try something else.

Eddrick, on 29 May 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

If someone wants to use, "Needing to hit the same spot more. Takes more skill". Wouldn't that same end be met by reducing the PPC's damage?

I'd even be fine with a straight up reduction in damage, heat and cooldown (I guess sticking close to current DPS and HPS) if that was the last option available to try.

[Agent of Change]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 29 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Why should the Awesome (or any mech for that matter) have some specialty goody that breaks the rules?

The obvious fix is to get rid of the mechanic that's borking it to begin with (ie: ghost heat) which fixes several other mechs at the same time and diversifies the game far more than it is now.

The PPC issue is something completely unrelated to a specific chassis and requires balancing outside the scope of Ghost Heat if there's ever going to be any real balance in the game.

Ghost Heat was nothing more than a band-aid being used to staunch a gaping wound. It's success has been as expected.

*cough* Convergence *cough*

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum X, on 29 May 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Oh, please give me 0.1s duration hitscan "streaming" PPCs...

Lol.

Brings whole new meaning to the phrase "Pug Zapper".

[Teufel Hunden 0351]

Instead of tryng to spread the damage of PPC's out to reduce / eliminate the pin point damage, why not make the PPC's a charge up weapon which takes say 1.5 seconds to fully charge but can be fired with any charge for reduced damage. In other words if you held the charge for .5 seconds it would only do 1/3 the damage. Also have the weapon hold it's full charge for say 5 seconds then start tapering off over another 1.5 seconds. If they were to impliment this they could also eliminate the min range for ppc's and reduce the heat scales down a bit to keep people interested in playing them.