121 replies to this topic

[Eddrick]

Praetor Knight, on 29 May 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

I like the idea of the arcing mechanic actually.

But for me it's all about what can be reasonably setup, since there is enough evidence to suggest that some sort of change is worth exploring at this point.

Since the main limiter is the Cryengine, the devs need to work within the limits of the engine; which is why I mention the alternative of using the hit-scan mechanic since it already works. If the cryengine can't handle what the devs are trying to code with the arcing/splash mechanic, then they would need to try something else.



I'd even be fine with a straight up reduction in damage, heat and cooldown (I guess sticking close to current DPS and HPS) if that was the last option available to try.

A lot of people are not fans of direct nerfs. I'm just not fond of the idea of defencive manuvers like, "Torso Twisting and Arm Shielding" being less usefull.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Eddrick, on 29 May 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

A lot of people are not fans of direct nerfs. I'm just not fond of the idea of defencive manuvers like, "Torso Twisting and Arm Shielding" being less usefull.

True.

From another thread, what about applying an LB X type shot, so two hits at 5 damage each from PPCs?

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Agent of Change, on 29 May 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

*cough* Convergence *cough*

People keep saying that and while it'll work somewhat for mechs like the Cataphract, it won't do anything for others like the Highlander than can still pinpoint both PPCs and both ACs.

In otherwords, one band-aid shouldn't replace another.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 29 May 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Eddrick]

Praetor Knight, on 29 May 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

True.

From another thread, what about applying an LB X type shot, so two hits at 5 damage each from PPCs?

Unintentional hits to the head and it would make people want to use it like a shotgun, without getting in minimum range.

With any kind of spread or splash. You run into the chance, they may have the Cockpit destroyed, long before the CT is. Need to be very carefull when adding uncontroled splash/spread in a game like this.

Edited by Eddrick, 29 May 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Why Run, on 29 May 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

you pulled out one sentence and ignored the rest of the paragraph. The point is, they've f'd so many other parts of the game up that you cannot keep nerfing weapons without further screwing the balance. If you want to redo the mechanics of a central weapon system, you need to clear the boards and start over. They should have done it before beta ended. It's NOT TOO LATE. It starts with scrapping the 2x armor. That decision, compounded the Hit Detection issues. Now, mini-mechs with undersized models and speed that out does the engine laugh through 1/2 the damage dealt. It's a problem because all of a sudden 250 armor is an incredible amount with tiny, often screwy hit boxes, and completely bonked hit detection.

Sorry. If you think light 'mechs are a problem you have no business discussing anything balance related.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 29 May 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Sorry. If you think light 'mechs are a problem you have no business discussing anything balance related.

I personally don't think light 'Mechs are a problem but in some situations Light Mechs > ZOMG OP PPCs

[Bishop Steiner]

I remember the damage inadvertently arcing and splashing in Closed Beta. Took 4-6 months before the devs even admitted it. And the PPCs were essentially useless, and nobody used them (slow projectile speed didn't help, either).

If they are going to splash again, then they need to also, return the sub 90 meter scaling damage, up the projectile speed a LOT, and possibly reduce heat a little bit, else we will go from everyone using them to no one using them again.

Personally, I'm pretty tired of people pinning all the woes on PPCs, when it's the perfect convergence and pinpoint aim no matter what you are doing that are the culprits to most weapon balancing issues. The day I see near stock K2s consistently topping the charts and being the Meta Mech, is the day I will believe PPCs are OP.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[Eddrick]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Personally, I'm pretty tired of people pinning all the woes on PPCs, when it's the perfect convergence and pinpoint aim no matter what you are doing that are the culprits to most weapon balancing issues. The day I see near stock K2s consistently topping the charts and being the Meta Mech, is the day I will believe PPCs are OP.

Hit the nail on the head.

[IceCase88]

Most of these ideas are way to overly complicated and probably difficult to implement.  Especially when you are talking about splash damage which has been a thorn in PG's rear end.  The key to ending the metas and high pinpoint alphas is instituting a random hit mechanic like in TT and how SSRMs currently function.  It is the only option which is proven to work and currently implemented in the game.  Using it for all weapons should be fairly easy to do and it will end all of these calls for nerf this, buff that, and change the meta.  It would end the ridiculous ghost heat, the stupid gauss charge, and all the QQing about high pinpoint alphas.  They could even lower armor values a bit.  The random hit mechanic would solve weapons convergence issues and high pinpoint alphas immediately and end the dreadful meta.  Weapons values can return to normal and the devs won't get bogged down in weapons balancing, buffing, fixes, and nerfing.  You say, "But I want to hit what I am aiming at."...  then you are for high pinpoint alphas, constant demands for weapons buffing, nerfing, and fixes.  Changing the PPC into another LBX is not the answer.  Heck, it should probably even solve the hit registration problems seeing as SSRMs seem to function pretty well.

Edited by IceCase88, 29 May 2014 - 06:37 PM.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Personally, I'm pretty tired of people pinning all the woes on PPCs, when it's the perfect convergence and pinpoint aim no matter what you are doing that are the culprits to most weapon balancing issues. The day I see near stock K2s consistently topping the charts and being the Meta Mech, is the day I will believe PPCs are OP.

Unfortunately, anti-PPC threads are spreading like nasty black mold.

[Bishop Steiner]

IceCase88, on 29 May 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Most of these ideas are way to overly complicated and probably difficult to implement. Especially when you are talking about splash damage wuich has been a thorn in PG's rear end. The key to ending the metas and high pinpoint alphas is instituting a random hit mechanic like in TT and how SSRMs currently function. It is the only option which is proven to work and currently implemented in the game. Using it for all weapons should be fairly easy to do and it will end all of these calls for nerf this, buff that, and change the meta. It would end the ridiculous ghost heat, the stupid gauss charge, and all the QQing about high pinpoint alphas. They could even lower armor values a bit. The random hit mechanic would solve weapons convergence issues and high pinpoint alphas immediately and ending the dreadful meta. Weapons values can return to normal and the devs won't get bogged down in weapons balancing, buffing, fixes, and nerfing. You say, "But I want to hit what I am aiming at." ... then you are for high pinpoint alphas, constant demands for weapons buffing, nerfing, and fixes. Changing the PPC into another LBX is not the answer. Heck, it would probably even solve the hit registration problems seeing as SSRMs seem to function pretty well.

while not my chosen solution, an interesting well thought out perspective. And sadly, the preferred manner, convergence, seems to be off the table entirely with the server/client and HSR set up. I would hope a tighter or slightly less random version than SSRMS have, as I do agree with the pinpoint argument in that if I am aiming at the left shoulder I really should not hit the right big toe. And especially on two stationary mechs. Having variable when adding movement and such, I am all for though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Elyam, on 29 May 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

If you read the entirety of intent behind the PPC in Battletech, it is not 'lightning-based', nor, despite some descriptions, is it 'artificial lightning'. That is a too-literal reading of some authors' color language.

It is a particle beam that is accompanied by a notable degree of electrical arcing.

Since MWO long ago drifted from established BT damage systems, I don't really care how the actual damage is handled at this point as long as it isn't so far a change as to alter the base role the weapon is intended to have.

http://en.wikipedia....cle-beam_weapon

they actually are laser guided lighting, as that is what a charged particle beam is. Followed by the plasma channel the beam causes. Delivers both heat and kinetic damage. Aka, Lightning.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2014 - 06:18 PM.

[Eddrick]

@IcecCase: With how Streaks work. They don't need HSR at all. They just need to make sure they don't hit anything else and then the random hit table is used. It doesn't need to know exactly where the target is. Which, is what HSR is partly for. It helps sync what you see with what the server sees.

[Elyam]

Bishop, I pulled my post after changing my mind about getting involved in the topic, but that was before I saw your reply. I'll reply to you due to the respect I have for all your posts. While I scientifically understand and do not debate your definition of what a charged particle beam is, there is a difference between the visual effect and strike behavior of the laser-led (led as in 'to lead', not led as in l.e.d.) beam of projected (dare I say 'hosed') massed particles and that of a hardly-controlled, whipping about arc that travels over the surface (as one thick rope and/or many tendrils) semi-randomly after impact. This is why I think the lightning description and label is inaccurate and to be avoided. It's been many months, good to exchange views with you again.

Edited by Elyam, 29 May 2014 - 06:36 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Elyam, on 29 May 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Bishop, I pulled my post after changing my mind about getting involved in the topic, but that was before I saw your reply. I'll reply to you due to the respect I have for all your posts. While I scientifically understand and do not debate your definition of what a charged particle beam is, there is a difference between the visual effect and strike behavior of the laser-led (led as in 'to lead', not led as in l.e.d.) beam and that of a hardly-controlled, whipping about arc that travels over the surface (as one thick rope and/or many tendrils) semi-randomly after impact. This is why I think the lightning description and label is inaccurate and to be avoided. It's been many months, good to exchange views with you again.

No problems. Even if I may not agree with a particular post, I always enjoy conversing and debating with other respectful users, who produce well reasoned posts. I do get and agree, we are not getting some violently whipping arcs, but much more focused plasma channels (after all real lightning is not following a laser to guide it). Regardless, sorry that so many of these topics have become so ....charged.. as to make contributing less than enjoyable. But I do totally get where you are coming from.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2014 - 06:37 PM.

[Pjwned]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 29 May 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

You are talking about PPC damage arcing. It's something I've been pushing for months now. Not only would it lower the pinpoint damage of PPCs without removing their FLD mechanic, but it'd be an opportunity for PGI to add some really pretty impact effects.

Mechanically, they should have them do 50% damage on impact, then jump to a random, adjacent, non-head location for 30% damage, and then jump again to a second random, adjacent, non-head, not-already-hit-by-this-shot location for the final 20% damage.

Not only would it be flavorful, but it'd be a good step toward making PPCs more mechanically balanced compared to other weapon choices. Doing this might even allow PGI to bump their base heat down a bit, and/or tweak the Ghost Heat limits/penalties.

For how heavy it is and how much heat it generates I'm not sure I agree with those numbers; don't forget that its travel time is not instant, so as much as people like to **** on it for its prevalence in pop-tart meta it's not always just pure easy mode because it can and does miss.

I think that doing 70% of its damage on the first component would be reasonable, and then 15% damage for 2 other components that are not the head.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 May 2014 - 06:50 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mister Blastman, on 29 May 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Making PPCs the inverse of SRMs...

i.e. increasing damage spread the closer they are fired to their target all the way out to perfect pinpoint at max range would be the optimal solution. But... alas... I don't see this happening either any time soon.

I am a fan of this one. Sorta like a much smaller LB10x cone? But with a predictable spread and "pellet" location.

So, no damage before 90M on the PPC, and at 90M you have the larger spread pattern, which get's progressively smaller until it reaches the equivalent to pinpoint at 540M. Then it begins the spread again, where it gets the same 90M spread at max range (1080).

So, I won't give any figures, because I'm not sure what's too big or small of a spread. Hit all 3 awesome torso's at 90M?

Still strong concentration of damage at the optimal range, poor concentration at long range, and it will also be a very poor short range weapon. Nothing too excessive, but enough to remove the 10 FLD up close, while still remaining a deadly weapon in its mid range niche.

The spread example broke when I posted....sad panda. Anyhow, like an X, where it has a larger spread up close and at max range, but nearly unaffected performance at the mid/optimal range.

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 May 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[IceCase88]

Quote

@IcecCase: With how Streaks work. They don't need HSR at all. They just need to make sure they don't hit anything else and then the random hit table is used. It doesn't need to know exactly where the target is. Which, is what HSR is partly for. It helps sync what you see with what the server sees.

Good point. Look at how many problems this one mechanic which is already implemented, and functioning properly, would solve.

[Clint Steel]

Less pinpoint for PPCs would be a good thing. They may be hot, but are so light (no ammo) and small vs ACs, They keep going after all the weapons that sync with PPCs instead of going after the PPC itself.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

I am a fan of this one. Sorta like a much smaller LB10x cone? But with a predictable spread and "pellet" location.

So, no damage before 90M on the PPC, and at 90M you have the larger spread pattern, which get's progressively smaller until it reaches the equivolent to pinpoint at 540M. Then it begins the spread again, where it gets the same 90M spread at max range (1080).

So, I won't give any figures, because I'm not sure what's too big or small of a spread. Hit all 3 awesome torso's at 90M?

Still strong concentration of damage at the optimal range, poor concentration at long range, and it will also be a very poor short range weapon. Nothing too excessive, but enough to remove the 10 FLD up close, while still remaining a deadly weapon in its mid range niche.

The spread example broke when I posted....sad panda. Anyhow, like an X, where it has a larger spread up close and at max range, but nearly unaffected performance at the mid/optimal range.

possibly but with this i disagree with keeping the minimum range anymore. would be too weak for their heat imo