150 replies to this topic

[Bilaz]

I like general idea - only things i think not mentioned - range where mech can share its targets to other mechs (also should be different or dependant on radar range) and that when mech starts shooting it should get (a bit) easier to target - so we wont have light snipers that shoot from god knows where and you cant target or see them.

Now ecm is so overpowered its just silly. i mean at least it should have some drawbacks - some heat to user, some penalties to sensors for friendlies. And ofc i'd rather see it as a mod to system, then altogher different system only availible to certain mechs.

[Haydin]

I really like this proposal. All for it.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

So, if my highlander has a detection range of 900m, because he is big and another mech has a sensor range of 800m, can he detect me or not?

[Rebas Kradd]

Rasc4l, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

I added to the above quote a line from that reddit link, which includes the same misunderstanding. I don't really understand how you come to the conclusion that missile boats suddenly wouldn't have "anyone else to target than other missile boats". Passive radar in my proposal simply means lowered ranges, not ECM capabilities. If, for example, a light/medium was scouting and found an enemy and started to brawl, both would be able to target each other normally at those close ranges and target them for friendly LRM-boats even if they both kept their radars on passive after the encounter. And now that SRMs work effectively, I don't see people dropping their 4xASRM6 griffins so also in that regard I don't agree nor really understand your conclusion of imminent ballistic+laser meta.

LRM boats aren't going to attempt to brawl. They're going to be staying at range, out of danger of most other weaponry, as common sense dictates. So if everyone else is running passive radar in an attempt to avoid missile boats (which, let's be honest, is the primary reason people carry ECM), missile boats aren't going to have much to do.

Also, I would venture to say that if brawlers do target each other at close range and allow missile boats to butt in, the bulk of complaints over LRMs will remain. That's exactly the primary gripe these days - people having their brawling sessions interrupted by some LRM boat over the hill. So this proposal doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Rasc4l, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

In my proposal ECM was not actually removed, just changed. The sensor image and radar capabilities of ECM mechs were just brought a bit closer to non-ECM mechs, which already alleviates their OPness much. The proposal was meant to work so that it still works together how ECM and BAP are today and they can then be modified further without the game being broken in-between.

I understand, and that's actually part of the problem. The complexity and gradient sensor ranges of your proposal is tough to understand for the new player. It actually reminds me a bit of Ghost Heat, people being confused because the numbers aren't available.

Rasc4l, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Yeah I also like to drive the DDC. It's actually my favorite. But let's face it, it's OP. Wouldn't even dream of driving the others.

So do you drive any mechs at all other than non-ECM mechs? Because the same logic should extend to that question. If you're saying that ECM is validating one variant of a chassis that's completely crappy to begin with, then the answer should be buffing the chassis, not removing ECM.

Rasc4l, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

I don't believe for a second that the problem with new player retention would be "because the game is so hard". There are completely other factors at play there, which are beyond the scope of this topic. If you happen to remember the 3PV poll with 3500 votes with 90 % saying no, it is obivous that the average BT/MW fan is more looking for the thinking man's shooter than the latest console shooter.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. I just don't see your solution as simple. Not when everyone else is complaining about the confusingness of Ghost Heat. This game cannot afford to cater to BT/MW fans at the expense of casual gamers, no matter how much those fans swing forum polls because casuals aren't there to vote. PGI knew that their implementation of 3PV would help casual gamers without harming the existing player base, and that is precisely what it's done. And those who hold out resentment over such features on principle, even when it's not actually affecting gameplay - well, I hope you see why PGI can't really afford to take them seriously.

Rasc4l, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Hehe it doesn't *require* "a whole OP of graphs". I just wanted to present an inherently simple idea in the simplest way possible and with the human brain that usually means something graphical. Don't let my 2 hours in excel overwhelm you, the basic idea is rather simple. That's why it's doable.

And I thought you explained it fairly well. But while we may have different definitions of simple, I think the current ECM is even simpler, and that's one of its strengths.

Rasc4l, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Protip: LRMs are not a problem, because they are easy to counter and that's why they are not used by the competitive scene i.e. people who really know how to drive mechs.

That's not what I'm generally seeing. People are constantly griping about LRMs, and while there are a lot of n00bs, there are also a few people who observe that the matchmaker sometimes sticks you with a lot of missile boats to deal with. ECM is a nice counter for that.

Rasc4l, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

My proposal caters both playergroups because LRMs would become more of a skill weapon because target acquisition becomes a less trivial matter.

Like I've said before, LRMs are more of a skill weapon than people give them credit for. Yes, I know...people said that last spring when it really wasn't, back in the Days of Neverfar™ when he'd incessantly call such people out. But then the ECM counters were strengthened in such a way that they truly provided an enabler. I've seen a tremendous difference in my effectiveness as an LRM boater between when I'm benefiting from TAG/NARC and when I'm not. Inflicting damage without those counters is slooooowww and oftentimes leaves me with <400 damage and no kills, with some of that coming from my energy weapons. Give me a clear line-of-sight for TAG, though (along with the inherent risks of exposure) and I get dangerous, fast.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 14 September 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[Rasc4l]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

So, if my highlander has a detection range of 900m, because he is big and another mech has a sensor range of 800m, can he detect me or not?

You would be visible half way so he would start seeing you at 850 m. This is the way it is in the OP but can be made to accommodate whatever the balance requires. If e.g. more stealth is required in general, then in such situations the 800 meters of the detecting mech can be used only and not calculate half way.

[Rasc4l]

Rebas Kradd, on 14 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

LRM boats aren't going to attempt to brawl. They're going to be staying at range, out of danger of most other weaponry, as common sense dictates. So if everyone else is running passive radar in an attempt to avoid missile boats (which, let's be honest, is the primary reason people carry ECM), missile boats aren't going to have much to do.

I think you are somehow very much comparing the passive radar to the on/off nature of ECMs and not fully appreciating the numbers in the OP. If you look carefully, medium mechs are targetable at 500 m while assaults are at 700+ m EVEN if they run in the passive mode. An enemy locust or commando can detect mechs at 600+ m ranges even with a passive radar so people are not hokus pokus disappearing anywhere on the battlefield in my proposal like you make it sound. Targeting just takes a bit more of your focus and smart scouting tactics are rewarded.

Rebas Kradd, on 14 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Also, I would venture to say that if brawlers do target each other at close range and allow missile boats to butt in, the bulk of complaints over LRMs will remain. That's exactly the primary gripe these days - people having their brawling sessions interrupted by some LRM boat over the hill. So this proposal doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Good brawlers many times position themselves so that they have LRM-support when they engage the enemy. This is supposed to happen. And if an enemy scout lights up your medium brawler and enemy LRM-boats put you in the shadow, because you sprinted too far in the beginning of the match, you're supposed to pay for it. :)

Rebas Kradd, on 14 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

I understand, and that's actually part of the problem. The complexity and gradient sensor ranges of your proposal is tough to understand for the new player. It actually reminds me a bit of Ghost Heat, people being confused because the numbers aren't available.

For a new player who knows BT I don't think this is tougher to understand than using mechlab and building your own mech. For a new player who doesn't know BT I think it's tougher to understand how in 1000 years the greatest war machines have weapons that have ranges in meters, not kilometers and missiles fly slower than birds.

Rebas Kradd, on 14 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

So do you drive any mechs at all other than non-ECM mechs? Because the same logic should extend to that question. If you're saying that ECM is validating one variant of a chassis that's completely crappy to begin with, then the answer should be buffing the chassis, not removing ECM.

Sure I do. I like especially lights but Atlas has always been my favorite. Medium brawlers are great nowadays and fun to play as well.

I'm not saying anything special about the DDC chassis, which is fine, except that due to ECM, it's currently OP due to the way ECM works.

Rebas Kradd, on 14 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Like I've said before, LRMs are more of a skill weapon than people give them credit for. Yes, I know...people said that last spring when it really wasn't, back in the Days of Neverfar™ when he'd incessantly call such people out. But then the ECM counters were strengthened in such a way that they truly provided an enabler. I've seen a tremendous difference in my effectiveness as an LRM boater between when I'm benefiting from TAG/NARC and when I'm not. Inflicting damage without those counters is slooooowww and oftentimes leaves me with <400 damage and no kills, with some of that coming from my energy weapons. Give me a clear line-of-sight for TAG, though (along with the inherent risks of exposure) and I get dangerous, fast.

Yeah I also like to occasionally take out my LRM-boats and tend to do okay with them. I don't go out without TAG+artemis.

[Destoroyah]

I like the general outlay the OP described. Also BAP should get boosts as well so If your in Line of Sight a mech with Bap can detect you at your full targeting range even in passive mode, also have BAP and the sensor range modules increase the range at which you are detectable. So a locust with a detection range of 450 would be targetable at 630m(20% for rank 2 sensor range and 20% for BAP.)
If they wanted to simplify the sensor range Proposal they could always base it off the mechs size scale.
Examples using a Base sensor range of 800m
Tiny: -45% Detection Range = 440m
Small: -30% Detection Range = 560m
Medium: -15% Detection Range = 680m
Large: No Change = 800m
Very Large: +10% Detection Range = 880m
Huge: +20% Detection Range = 960m

Also like your ideas for target info.

Another thing they could do to help bolster the information/role warfare pillar would be to add battlefield assets or objects you can capture that influence the battlefield.
Examples:

Radar Towers: Once captured provide 1000m detection range around tower.

Satelite Stations: Once captured a Mech with a Command console can select a grid square and reveal all targets in that grid and allow them to be targeted even ECM or ECM covered mechs for a short time like 30 secs. Has a 2 minute cooldown before next deployment.

Unknown Asset: Allows increased capture rate of battlefield assets while you own it.

Resupply Station: Once captured allows you to resupply your ammo providing you got the weapons to use them and the body parts left to store the ammo(Doesn't exceed your mech loadout). Requires you to shutdown in the area and 5secs for each ton of ammo. also cost of ammo is taken at end of match.

Edited by Destoroyah, 15 September 2014 - 03:53 PM.

[Wolfways]

According to Russ role warfare is already in the game as all weight classes are viable. Not what I'd call role warfare but...

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd love to have this type of diversity across mechs.

[Zack Esseth]

Still the best thing I have read of all ideas thrown out on how to fix parts of the game. I hope this is how they fix sensors and ecm. After ecm is fixed we can finally get LRMs implemented properly.

[Malleus011]

I'd like to bump this again as well - this feels like an easy to implement general improvement to the game, regardless of what eventually happens with ECM. I really like sensor ranges modified by weight.

It can seem complex (if you're trying to figure out exactly how far that Jenner can detect your Locust) but as a role of thumb it's pretty easy to remember that smaller can see larger from further away.

Edited by Malleus011, 18 September 2014 - 04:41 PM.