27 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

It's common belief that certain mechs are significantly larger than others. Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not.

Today we're taking a look at the Kintaro; a mech with a bad reputation of being a walking center torso when it's really not. It also has the reputation of being 'bigger' than other 55 tonners. Lets debunk that.

Unlike either the Griffin or the Shadowhawk, not a single weapon on the Kintaro's torso increases the body hitbox. (Shadowhawk's head launcher increases CT size; its ballistics increase its left torso size).

(Arms are a different matter entirely; but who packs this in?)


Original images. These were kinda bad images that hurt the eyes showing an overlaid Kintaro and Trebuchet, then Trebuchet and Shadowhawk to show that Trebs seem to have 'shrunk' a little.

Spoiler

Kintaro to a Trebuchet.

Treb to a Shadowhawk.

Shadowhawk is taller.

Some lore:
Kintaro is a NARC delivery unit and SRM hit and run skirmisher. After pegging an enemy with its NARC, the expensive NARC-enabled SRM ammunition overrides the usually iffy and unreliable SRM thermal tracking guidance in favor of aggressively seeking out the NARC Missile Beacon, making the Kintaro's missiles deadlier than streaks due to the lack of necessity to acquire a lock on the Beacon. Its arm range and torso twist can allow it to continue engaging even while diagonally retreating (in MWO it can shoot directly backwards from the arms). (Interestingly, the left arm launcher in lore can jam if the Kintaro doesn't lock its arm straight down for 3 seconds shortly after firing and any non-normal vibration could potentially cause an internal explosion; there's a bit of a "wait..." tidbit there.)

Pity SRMs were never properly done. SRMs would be the big mainstay.

Anyway. Those images were terribly blurry and while making new ones I thought of how to fix that. Here goes. ANIMATED before/after views. Warning: Bandwidth hog. DO NOT OPEN unless you want to see size comparisons. For lack of know-how, each comparison is just over 2 megabytes. Sorry!
Griffin to Kintaro. (Negligible differences.)

Spoiler

Some lore: The Griffin is ideally a direct fire support mech with standard LRMs (locked only through direct line of sight; no C3 system to get locks from others) and long sharp shooting. For a fire support mech it is unusually armored so that it could hold its own, but it could never lead a charge.

Shadowhawk to Kintaro. (Heavy Weapons Guy voice: "Shadowhawk is GIANT!")

Spoiler

Some lore: The Shadowhawk is a forward reconnaissance unit for heavy lances. Never directly in the fight, it seeks out enemies from the side. Providing itself as a spotter for artillery and missiles, it can give enemy locations while peppering them with its Armstrong J11 80mm autocannon. (Its most expensive version does surpass the Kintaro and Griffin in armor, but runner up variants are equal to the lowest Griffin armor, and others are Raven 2X material in terms of armor. The El Cheapo Shadowhawk has about as much armor as a Locust.)

Wolverine to Kintaro (who knew the Wolverine was the shortest? "Wolverine is so tiny!")

Spoiler

Some lore: A Jack of All Trades originally designed as a fast strike mech, the Wolverine is in and out quickly. It has enough armor to tank a lot of firepower, though the 6R trades the unreliable jumpjets for even more armor and weapons (PGI gave us the 'more armor' part but inflated the other mech's weapons which defeated the purpose of that trade). The Wolverine is frequently used as a command mech for medium lances, and with armor among the highest of medium mechs it is considered a great brawler in the literal sense (as in its very well known for physically punching out other mechs; you can see this reflected on the model in MWO in the form of knuckle-protection on the left hand).

Just wanted to put a little bit of interesting knowledge out there. It's a shame that MWO doesn't use armor as a method of 'balancing'. The Kintaro would then be the armored choice over the Griffin. The Wolverine would be the 'tanking' choice over any of them. And for the best firepower, you'd go straight to the Shadowhawk.

But armor means nothing if all mechs can equip the same amount. The diversity missed here.

Let me know if the images won't load.

[Artgathan]

Excellent analysis Koniving - I especially enjoy the changing images (they really really help to put things in perspective). That said, I believe all the 55 tonners are huge (if you could produce those overlays with the 55 tonners vs. a Victor or Battlemaster that would be awesome).

Mech sizing is inconsistent and really hurts certain mechs (for instance, compare a Locust to a Jenner to have a good laugh).

[Lostdragon]

The longer I play MWO the more I come to realize that unfettered customization has hurt the game way more than it has helped. Mechs are unique only in appearance and hard points. If two 55 ton mechs have the same hard points then the thing that makes one of them better than the other one is usually hit boxes or the ability to use JJ.

The way MWO's mechs are designed for unlimited customization has actually hurt role warfare. For the most part, mechs are not special snowflakes with unique characteristics. If a mech can equip a couple of PPCs and an AC or two and use JJ then it is very powerful. If a mech can equip ECM it is the best variant of its chassis. If a chassis does not have JJ it is usually the redheaded step child of its weight (like the KTO compared to other 55 tonners).

I was hoping this would have been addressed already through skill trees for each chassis or something, but that is a long way off or never going to happen.

Edited by Lostdragon, 29 May 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[TercieI]

Great stuff, Kon, well presented.

Care to address the Quickdraw/Highlander thing? That feels like it's gotta be a "MWO Urban Legend."

[Koniving]

Terciel1976, on 29 May 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Great stuff, Kon, well presented.

Care to address the Quickdraw/Highlander thing? That feels like it's gotta be a "MWO Urban Legend."

Other than size it really isn't that far fetched. But yes after dinner I can take the snapshots and do one.

[Thorqemada]

Size comparison should contain the Hunchback as one of the few Medium Mechs that is close to a proper size (excluding Hunch).

[TercieI]

I keep re-watching these just because they're COOL. I really want a button that turns my MetaHawk™ into my Streaktaro™ and back at need. Can we get that please?

[Koniving]

Thorqemada, on 29 May 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Size comparison should contain the Hunchback as one of the few Medium Mechs that is close to a proper size (excluding Hunch).

Recently addressed elsewhere:

Koniving, on 29 May 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

The Treb, though, makes a bit of sense.

Its current size is just barely taller than the Centurion, and skinnier than even my "adjusted to concept art" Centurion (it took hours of measuring to find out that every prominent feature was in proportion even after the extra wide change to the Centurion from the concept art; then a while to figure it's almost exactly 15% wider, and 3 seconds to make the fix).

Both of which are skinnier than a Hunchback. What it lacks in thickness, it makes up for in height. Its drawback is the arms; they're huge and logically so considering the large missile launchers (which thankfully are reduced in size compared to before).




The Treb is skinnier than the 'rescaled' and adjusted to match the concept art Centurion on the right. Centurions by description are tall, thin battlemechs "though not as tall as their complimentary Trebuchet partners." Both mechs as a fit of irony, are supposed have larger left arms than right arms (for both mechs it is supposed to be larger than their right arms in both thickness and length) which would have resulted in somewhat different looks here.

Both the Trebuchet and Centurion are 'stilted' designs in lore so that their torso mounted launchers could have better effectiveness in firing over cover.

When attacked in close quarters contrary to popular tactics (where the normally faster guard dog fights while the protectee lumbers about), the Centurion engages while the Trebuchet relocates to get a better firing angle on the threat. The Centurion was designed with the slower speed so that the pilot would not be tempted to chase after bait, as the common guerrilla tactic was baiting escort mechs with diversionary forces.

If anything is too big, it's how wide the Centurion is.
But in closed beta with its hit boxes that thing would be instant-gibbed or close to it by missile splash damage.

Now it doesn't matter at all. So they could fix it if they chose to.

The Shadowhawk's high rise design also fits its lore; it's a recon mech, direct fire support, and is intended to favor mountains, hills and canyons. (Tall body has easier time shooting over things. Little to no concentration of weaponry in arms).

I might also admit, the pilot can't fit in the cockpit of the Hunchback, unlike the other mediums. It'd either need to be longer or the pilot recessed deeper into the torso and positioned differently. The Hunchback is also 'longer' from the side than either of the mediums, even on the Hunchback's "thinner" parts.

Edited by Koniving, 29 May 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[Koniving]

Terciel1976, on 29 May 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Great stuff, Kon, well presented.

Care to address the Quickdraw/Highlander thing? That feels like it's gotta be a "MWO Urban Legend."

Mkay I won't go into the whole analysis thingy as this is just comparing torsos.

Spoiler

Extremely similar, identical concept. Though not actually the same 3D models. Later when I get them converted to a format I can play with I can compare the individual parts.

Thorqemada, on 29 May 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Size comparison should contain the Hunchback as one of the few Medium Mechs that is close to a proper size (excluding Hunch).

Following up with what I said before, I should point this out:

Every mech is too 'large', except the Locust and the Commando, and the pilot can't physically fit in the Commando as designed.
Haruko has an entire thread which goes into it. However the commando was designed for looks, not quite to lore. The pilot sits in the center of the head. Not on the left as designed here. Though that could still be pulled off but not how the pilot 'sits'. Like many smaller tanks it'd be in very uncomfortable conditions. (I should mention the entire head of the commando is supposed to launch as an ejection pod).

Jenner's taller than it should be since the Jenner's legs are supposed to be mounted to its shoulders. The Raven is actually about right, considering that its thickness in the body was traded for a little height and slight extra length.

The Centurion in MWO is about 13 to 15 meters tall (what I'm using can't measure exactly), but I know the Atlas is over 17 meters tall.

Trouble is... Atlases are supposed to be slightly under 14 meters tall as are Dire Wolves (Daishi) (with the tallest ones being 14 meters).

So while MWO's sizes make sense compared to their Atlas and to each other... they're actually much too tall. The Atlas in MWO can flip an 80 ton main battle tank given its size with possibly incredible ease.
The Atlas in lore...can't unless it's 40 tons or less, and even then it's a strain that'll tear some actuators.
That 80 ton main battle tank? It'd probably hand the Atlas its backside, depending on which tank and other conditions (mostly range).

Got to say, BT's tanks seem like they could seriously stand a chance in a mechwarrior game that's properly balanced.

On an interesting note, the Centurion's Luxor D class 10 autocannon is supposed to be 80mm (Ghost of Winter, Price of Glory), at which size through combing over a crapload of books I rounded out the damage of an 80mm to 0.5 damage per shot through an AC/2 and an AC/5 firing pattern and in Ghost of Winter it works out perfectly as it describes the Centurion as firing 'bursts of 20' and "half-bursts of 10" rounds. 0.5 damage * 20 = 10 damage. Where I got from was an 80mm nameless AC/2 firing spurts of 4 shots, the 80mm Armstrong J11 AC/5 on the Shadowhawk firing 18 rounds (Thunder Ridge; I should note this author couldn't keep the gun's size straight as it'd bounce between 80, 90, and 85mm), and the 80mm Imperator A (Rifleman) squeezing off 20 rounds before his display would 'tick 1 off the ammo display' (Price of Glory).

So the Centurion's AC/10 and the Shadowhawk's AC/5 should have the same barrel size. But MWO doesn't take calibers into account, nor shot count. In MWO every AC/20 is a 203mm, despite how some of them have barrels as small as machine guns, when in BattleTech the Mech and Tank mounted AC/20s only go up to 185mm (which is the size necessary in lore for a single shot to do 5 damage). They also have every AC as a single shot, when there actually isn't a single AC on the Inner Sphere side that can do this (at least not in 13 books).

Yes there's a UAC/20 that can accomplish this, but even the validity of that is questionable and the mech that owns this specific UAC/20 has the feet and legs as thick as an MWO Catapult, with a body as long as an MWO Stalker, the height of an MWO Jenner, and the width of an MWO Dragon. The Ebon Jaguar, also known as the Cauldron Born.

Spoiler

The Ebon Jaguar is so low to the ground that a cargo truck (described as a taller semi) cannot 'slip' between its legs without scraping itself.

When I looked up the H configuration specifically which is the UAC/20 variant, this came up.


This is also supposed to be the H. While I love the cannon, the pelvis and height clearly mean the maker didn't read anything about it.

Edited by Koniving, 29 May 2014 - 07:49 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 29 May 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

pretty pikturs

Good analysis...can you run a comparo of them to the HBK though? Front and Side, possibly?

I only ask this because IMO all the 55 tonners are just looking a whole lot more than 5 tons bigger (of course as we've talked the poor Centy got bloated too) but the HBK has always been one of the few in game that looks and feels correctly sized compared to most other mechs.

Of course, end of the day, whilst I would like my 55 tonners a tad shorter, it has not seemed to affect their survivability for me one wit. The Griffin and SHD are far and away two of the toughest mechs I drive, as long as I remember to twist and not stare.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2014 - 05:14 PM.

[Koniving]

I can, but jeebus have some decorum in quoting; you quoted that whole thing. o.O.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 29 May 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I can, but jeebus have some decorum in quoting; you quoted that whole thing. o.O.

oops. Well, you use d spoilers. It could have been worse. Not gonna go off your rocker attacking me for it are ya?

[Eddrick]

Great work!

[Jenkss]

Nice analysis Koniving, an opportunity was definitely missed by letting all mechs of the same tonnage equip the same max armor. That could have been a big point of difference. Mechs that were just flat out tankier than others, like max engine sizes.

If the Centurion looked like that I would definitely have a few in my hangar. Unfortunately I can't get over the stupidly wide mech. It doesn't look right to me. The original concept art is awesome as well.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Keep pushing your armor balance tweak, Koniving. Maybe one day it'll sink in somewhere and we'll finally see a version of it go live. It'd really revolutionize MWO.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Need side profiles...

A 55t Mech that's 20% thicker will be appear significantly smaller than a "thinner" 55t Mech if viewed from the front.

Edit: Look at the Hunchback compared to the Trebuchet. Hunchie is fat and barrel-shaped with rounded legs. It is short as a result, but a Hunchback torso is very deep from front-to-back and easier to hit from a flanking position.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 29 May 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 29 May 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

(I should mention the entire head of the commando is supposed to launch as an ejection pod).



The Centurion in MWO is about 13 to 15 meters tall (what I'm using can't measure exactly), but I know the Atlas is over 17 meters tall.

Trouble is... Atlases are supposed to be 14 meters tall as are Dire Wolves (Daishi).

Where did you get the Commando HEad Ejection Pod? An MWO thing? The Hatchetman was the first mech to use the Whole Head Ejection Assembly, and the next was the Wolfhound. The Commando, on the other hand, predates both by 550 years.


Actually, the tallest mechs are supposed to be 14. In lore, while the heaviest, neither the Atlas nor Daishi were among the tallest, the Daishi because of it's hunched nature, and the Atlas it's sheer stockiness. Both were closer to 12 (a Centy on the other hand would be close to 10) whereas the Executioner and Banshee were both mechs noted for their tallness (as were Victors and Summoners) and both would have been your 14 meter outliers, amongst others.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Where did you get the Commando HEad Ejection Pod? An MWO thing? The Hatchetman was the first mech to use the Whole Head Ejection Assembly, and the next was the Wolfhound. The Commando, on the other hand, predates both by 550 years.

MW2 Titanium edition cinematic. Though it's true those are about as canon as MWO (as in not). Still, considering its age, it still had the most plausible cockpit design (it required the entire head) and a full head ejection system makes sense considering that the entire head rotates anyway (see original Commando TRO design image; "head turned").

But on that note just because a newer mech started it, doesn't necessarily mean a newer model of an older mech couldn't use it. Variants with new numbers are often completely new models made to custom orders, as opposed to same mech with a slapjob.

Example Com-2s aren't the same model as Com-1s. HBK-4 series and HBK-5 series are very similar mechs, but different models with supposedly different looks. An AS7 and AS8 aren't the same Atlas, either. Though I gotta say the AS7 model went through a LOT of years of service before they stopped making them.

Far as the Atlas height I kind of figured it wasn't exactly supposed to be the tallest (Gargoyle and Man O War seem to take the cake there). Besides, the Banshee is taller here.

Anyway, here's your side view. This is horrendously time consuming and I know you have the resources to do your own for the front. Bare in mind given I'm using mechlab, this has perspective and as such things farther away appear smaller than they are. (Like the Hunch's freaking huge hunch).
Included a 25, 35, 40, 45 tonner and the Atlas as well.

Spoiler

Warning: image file size is huge.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 29 May 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

stuff

Well, then the COM-3A could have it I guess. It appeared in 3025, 2 years after the Hatchetman. But none of the others would, technically. (I actually thought the MW2 Mercs just showed a pod blow out of the head, which MW3 used also, I believe for the Atlas' death) Also thought it was the Zeus that died. =/

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2014 - 06:38 PM.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

(I actually thought the MW2 Mercs just showed a pod blow out of the head, which MW3 used also, I believe for the Atlas' death)

Quote decorum! They're big scroll-worthy quotes.

Could be. It has been a while. Still the full head cockpit makes a lot more sense, especially when you look at Haruko's thread. I'll personally have a bit of fun redesigning the cockpit for the Commando one of these days to see if at least 'most' of that fun stuff could fit in there with the pilot. Gonna be a cramped fit!

Hunch and Centurion both sides and front. (Btw, BJ is the same height as Hunchback and if it stood straight it'd be taller. o.O; ).

Spoiler

Hate to see what the "small cockpit" version of Commandos had to suffer... "Piloted only by contortionists" might be a joke, but I think that'd be a fitting phrase.

(The commando cockpit topic at hand; and no I can't for the life of me remember what the vid might be named let alone hope to find it on youtube with the ejection).

Edited by Koniving, 29 May 2014 - 06:40 PM.