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#41 Red King

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:11 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 May 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

that's OK...pretty sure neither do a lot of those guys....or not for long. -_-

But wait...then what excuse do you have for being distracted and not running an uber KDr? That means you are even more of a loser!



:rolleyes: I have brought shame to my family. Looks like I'll have to stop playing til they release the Hunchback IIC.

#42 xMintaka

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:12 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 May 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

NO!!!


YOU MUST BE AT PRACTICE MONDAY, WEDNESDAY AND EVERY OTHER THURSDAY NIGHT, OR YOU ARE OFF THE TEAM!!!

Tell your wife, kids, PTA meetings, AA meetings, and everything else IRL that they will just have to wait..... Our Epeen is Lower than Team Lord Epeen's and nobody gets to have a real life until we decimate them at giant make believe stompy internet robot combat!

What? You didn't score 1400 damage and 8 kills last match?!?!?!? YOU ARE OFF THE TEAM, LOSER!!!!!!!!


It's actually understandable that HoL and SJR would have such restrictions. They are obviously aiming to be the top teams in this game. As such they favour meta builds which, naturally, bring high KDR's.

Bound to get a lot of kills with high FLD and very limited exposure time leads to few deaths.

But for us regular folk? That strange breed of people who play games to have fun, win or lose?

Your stats are there for you to inspect when you choose. Use them to set goals for yourself to improve if that's how you roll, but you have to realise they are by no means an entirely accurate system. As has been pointed out many times in this thread.

I just know that if a team asks for my KDR before joining, I'd tell them where to stick it and find a group of folks that I get along with.

#43 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:13 AM

View PostAkagami, on 31 May 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:



-_- I have brought shame to my family. Looks like I'll have to stop playing til they release the Hunchback IIC.

if you were one of those silly Dracs you'd have to slit your belly in the garden, yessir.

Thank goodness I am just a PUG and therefore a BAD and don't have to live by such silly rules to play a bloody video game.

#44 Appogee

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:14 AM

View PostMerrick, on 31 May 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

to us a 1.13 w/l is fine, it shows you activley try and help the team more then pad your own stats thus making you a player that would fit with our mind set of the team being important and the individual is an important part of the team.

I appreciate that you clarified that.

#45 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:15 AM

View PostLunatech, on 31 May 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

It's actually understandable that HoL and SJR would have such restrictions. They are obviously aiming to be the top teams in this game. As such they favour meta builds which, naturally, bring high KDR's.

Bound to get a lot of kills with high FLD and very limited exposure time leads to few deaths.

But for us regular folk? That strange breed of people who play games to have fun, win or lose?

Your stats are there for you to inspect when you choose. Use them to set goals for yourself to improve if that's how you roll, but you have to realise they are by no means an entirely accurate system. As has been pointed out many times in this thread.

I just know that if a team asks for my KDR before joining, I'd tell them where to stick it and find a group of folks that I get along with.

it would.....if MWO were an actual e-sport (what a bloody oxymoron) where money was on the line. I respect the skill of some of those guys, especially the ones who don't walk around like playing a videogame will actually get them laid or something, but that degree of devotion, I'll leave purely for things with personal or financial gain associated to it.

#46 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:21 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 May 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

it would.....if MWO were an actual e-sport (what a bloody oxymoron) where money was on the line. I respect the skill of some of those guys, especially the ones who don't walk around like playing a videogame will actually get them laid or something, but that degree of devotion, I'll leave purely for things with personal or financial gain associated to it.

IMO a "proper" view of stats is much like the way a good golfer thinks..... your only opponent is yourself. I use stats to gauge where I am weak, where I am good, and such. Which builds are not working for me, etc. And because that is all they are there for, I never feel a need to pad them, and thus, unlike most stat obsessed epeen Lords of Mount Tryhard, my stats are actually probably more honest and reliable.

Never feel the need to kill steal, or damage farm AFKs if you don't have to wave your Peen-Flag. Now, not saying all "Pros" do that, but let's just say that I find a lot of self proclaimed "Pros" are indeed guilty of it, and you see it match after match.

Gotta say, open stats would just make that climate even worse. As a dedicated Medium Brawler I expect to catch a fair bit of friendly fire, but it's always interesting that the amount doubles and triples on tournament weekends, as ever solo rambo hero in the game is so desperate to pad their stats and get those kills in.

IDK, maybe they can make a nice exclusive private match lobby where you have to show them your epeen at the door to get in?

#47 Adiuvo

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:28 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 May 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

NO!!!


YOU MUST BE AT PRACTICE MONDAY, WEDNESDAY AND EVERY OTHER THURSDAY NIGHT, OR YOU ARE OFF THE TEAM!!!

Tell your wife, kids, PTA meetings, AA meetings, and everything else IRL that they will just have to wait..... Our Epeen is Lower than Team Lord Epeen's and nobody gets to have a real life until we decimate them at giant make believe stompy internet robot combat!

What? You didn't score 1400 damage and 8 kills last match?!?!?!? YOU ARE OFF THE TEAM, LOSER!!!!!!!!

We actually only practice one day a week for two hours -_-

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 May 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

it would.....if MWO were an actual e-sport (what a bloody oxymoron) where money was on the line. I respect the skill of some of those guys, especially the ones who don't walk around like playing a videogame will actually get them laid or something, but that degree of devotion, I'll leave purely for things with personal or financial gain associated to it.

It really doesn't take as much time nor effort as you think it does...

#48 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:30 AM

If I were recruiting for the Stiffy Army, which I am not because it does not exist, the primary thing I would be after as a battle commander are people who do what I ask them to do immediately when I ask them to do it if it is possible for them to get it done.

That and only that factor. Everything else can be learned.

#49 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:34 AM

View PostCaptain Stiffy, on 31 May 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

If I were recruiting for the Stiffy Army, which I am not because it does not exist, the primary thing I would be after as a battle commander are people who do what I ask them to do immediately when I ask them to do it if it is possible for them to get it done.

That and only that factor. Everything else can be learned.

Yup. Number one killer of plans is not low KDr. It's low dedication or discipline. Can't count the number of times people simply pushing and eating some fire would have won the match, but people have this odd way of protecting their Stats, where they are apparently convinced that turtling and dying later in the match is somehow preferable to taking the initiative, maybe dying, but probably winning. Or the number of times we have gotten a "Push" order.... and I gamely go into the fray and find myself very alone, lol.

I'll take 12 guys with mediocre stats who I can rely on, than 12 Rambos who are too concerned with their stats. Those rare instances you get the blend of the two, truly is impressive. Sadly I have seen far more high stat players than I have good "team" players in this game.

#50 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:44 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 31 May 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Yup. Number one killer of plans is not low KDr. It's low dedication or discipline. Can't count the number of times people simply pushing and eating some fire would have won the match, but people have this odd way of protecting their Stats, where they are apparently convinced that turtling and dying later in the match is somehow preferable to taking the initiative, maybe dying, but probably winning. Or the number of times we have gotten a "Push" order.... and I gamely go into the fray and find myself very alone, lol.

I'll take 12 guys with mediocre stats who I can rely on, than 12 Rambos who are too concerned with their stats. Those rare instances you get the blend of the two, truly is impressive. Sadly I have seen far more high stat players than I have good "team" players in this game.


The "best" strategy in pugs as the game is right now is to do at least any damage to as many enemies as possible and also to be the last one to do damage to the enemies (i.e. get a kill). High damage will pay more c-bills but high assists pay more regardless. I say this because KDR is really only one part of an equation and most players to some degree are also concerned with the money payouts. At least I am.

The gameplay in no way rewards strategy outside of combat positioning which is really RNG in pugs because of the random nature of the matchmaking and random nature of starting positions (now). So as a pug player your best bet stats wise and money wise is to damage as many enemies as possible to any degree at all and to try to be the last person that damages an enemy.

This leads to gameplay where nobody wants to be the one to take risk. They want to be alive as long as possible so they can fill those 2 main objectives. Coordination is really only even possible in a "CHARGE!" scenario.

I don't really have suggestions to "fix" these things because really this is just a definition of the underlying game mechanics as they stand from a pug perspective. But that is the pug meta as I see it.

Damage as many enemies as possible
Be the last one to damage as many enemies as possible

#51 Red King

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:47 AM

This topic reminds me a lot of this one, however it takes a more positive outlook on teamwork.

#52 Jacobei

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

great idea! haters or baddies have the option to turn it off - I would do it even with my crappy stats !

Edited by Jacobei, 31 May 2014 - 10:48 AM.


#53 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:50 AM

View PostJacobei, on 31 May 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

great idea! haters or baddies have the option to turn it off - I would do it even with my crappy stats !


Just have it be "anonymous" as the name by default. The same way that mining pools do their leaderboards. Anonymity problem is solved. I think however that PGI is afraid of people seeing that they have very low stats and being discouraged. To them they likely see it as helping to create a broader audience but it really only serves to alienate a core one.

#54 Triordinant

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:54 AM

I find it amusing that anybody considers KDR a meaningful stat. It's even more hilarious that some people might actually use it as a way to screen possible recruits! ROFL! -_-

#55 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:09 AM

I realize I'm dipping my toes here in a pool of very firm believers in their point of view, but allow me to offer a counter-point to stats review.

Smoke Adders asks for applicants to provide screenshots of your Mech page and weapons page (not your base stats page).

It's considered during our crew's review by four people and never spoken of outside of that group of players. In fact, it is extremely rare that we ever discuss someone's particular stats at all unless something really bears mentioning.

We look at a variety of indicators that together can give us a feel for someone's strengths and weaknesses, but we do not fixate on any one statistic.

For example, while KDR may not be a great statistic in isolation it can give some decent indications of a player's skills when looked at in conjunction with other stats (KPM, average damage done etc). Additionally, unlike most of the board warriors here claiming they average 600pts a game in whatever chassis/weapon combo, we recognize that bad matches happen, matches happen where you turn the corner and get wrecked, where you disco'd, where the game ended in objective cap or resources maxed etc and take such stats with a grain of salt.

But reality is, if you can rack up a decent KDR, KPM, avoiding dying, average a reasonable amount of damage per match etc over hundreds of matches you probably are not spending all of your time poaching kills.

That being said....what we're really looking for is what Mechs (weight/speed etc) someone tends to do well in on the one page and what weapons they tend to do well with on the second, especially because in those cases we can help (loadout tips, group roles, gunnery tips, etc).

Yes, your ML % probably goes down a tick because you like to test fire your weapons at the start of every map, but you fire the things thousands of times.....the tests fires are a drop in the bucket....your thousands of real attempts are more telling.

Finally, we don't use the stats we ask for as a screener to reject someone. We have "red" KDR's and "greens" aplenty. We do it to help people get better and for the ones interested in competitive play, we want to know what role to help them get into based on their demonstrated strengths and playstyles. We have never refused a player entry based on their stats. Stats can improve. Performance in a video game can be learned and improved upon, all while remaining fun.

We've only ever dropped someone's application due to inactivity or being abrasive (we don't dig people who are immature, blame others, like to point fingers, yell at PUGs or represent us badly....boorish behavior is a good indicator of poor sportsmanship and often lack of a team-orientation). The three players who we voted not to include formally, were players that were repeatedly getting into it with others in teamspeak, ranting during competitive 12's or otherwise not being team players and we let them go.

Stats can have a useful purpose. Fixating on stats is like anything else....myopic and usually not going to help people or organizations get better.

As to the OP's point....you shouldn't be trolling pages of stats to invite people anyway. Team play is less about pure stats (although demonstrated skill is clearly important) and more about synergy and teamwork. So I'd vote no to that premise of public stats.

If you recruit someone based on playing with them in game, and having learned whether their temperment/personality will might mesh with your team's, then stats can have a useful purpose outside of that. But trying to simply recruit people based on numbers will not net you a great team. It will net you egos that struggle to work together effectively and don't mesh.

Edited by Lukoi, 31 May 2014 - 11:11 AM.


#56 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:10 AM

View PostTriordinant, on 31 May 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

I find it amusing that anybody considers KDR a meaningful stat. It's even more hilarious that some people might actually use it as a way to screen possible recruits! ROFL! -_-

View PostTriordinant, on 31 May 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

I find it amusing that anybody considers KDR a meaningful stat. It's even more hilarious that some people might actually use it as a way to screen possible recruits! ROFL! :rolleyes:


It isn't meaningless. That having been said getting a team with the 12 highest KDR players on it would be a complete disaster.

#57 Abisha

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:31 AM

View PostCavendish, on 31 May 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:


So, as a Raven 3L scout, running TAG, NARC, shielding the group with ECM and hence supporting my team but not having enough guns to get a massive "K/D" ratio, I am useless according to your logic? If I mount SSRMs instead and stick to our assults for ECM cover and light hunting thus denying myself the chance to run off and snipe to get kills, I am equally useless?

As for the W/L stat, its my fault I get into a group with people who only see K/D stats and rush off to "solo" as much as possible instead of working as a team and winning, as long as they get that extra kill to feed the stat buffing?

I wonder if your idea of teamwork is 12 "rambos" poptarting 13 min per game to get as many kills as possible?


O please raven who the hell sign up with a build like that?.
better snipe a LRM with a raven much better time spend for team.
and even save a team mate in the progress.

also wanna point out, the more you assist with kills the more likely you score a kill, reason why killrate is super imported.

Edited by Abisha, 31 May 2014 - 11:33 AM.


#58 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:34 AM

View PostAbisha, on 31 May 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:


O please raven who the hell sign up with a build like that?.
better snipe a LRM with a raven much better time spend for team.
and even save a team mate in the progress.

Actually, I find a build like that very useful, and in fact usually more useful than a sniper raven. What with the range superiority of ACs coming to an end, have a feeling people who know how to fold a decent LRM lance and spotter into their battle plan might make a little more hay.

But I can definitely tell you, I wouldn't look for a teammate with your myopic, your way or the highway outlook.

#59 xMintaka

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:42 AM

View PostAbisha, on 31 May 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:


O please raven who the hell sign up with a build like that?.
better snipe a LRM with a raven much better time spend for team.
and even save a team mate in the progress.


Or the Tag + NARC Raven can go and designate priority targets for focus fire. Quite possibly saving 11 team mates. There's also this crazy thing called "fun". Wonder if you've heard of it?


Tell me, have you ever enjoyed a game where you lost?

You remind me of someone I saw in game on Friday morning. We lost 12-10 and he died early. Clearly he was spectating me and after I went down he chimed in about how useless the Guass Raven is. After I stated that I have fun with it and am not a detriment to the team, he informed me that only winning is fun and I know nothing about piloting lights. The last part may be true, but I did far better than he did in his Ember, so...

Edited by Lunatech, 31 May 2014 - 11:43 AM.


#60 Dymlos2003

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:42 AM

All stats should be invisible. Even kills and damage done should be excluded from the end screen.





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