44 replies to this topic

[Worms4u]

Alright so I've been playing for a while, October I think. I do pretty well for myself with direct fire weapons (450ish average a game, 2 kills, many assists).

Anyway.. I got a stalker recently with 2xLRM 20, 2xLRM10, and some SRM's for close range defense.

All missles have ARTEMIS, I also run with a tag.

Ok so - My best game was 200 damage. Terrible. I am hoping to explain how I pilot so someone can tell me what I am doing wrong.

First, I have target retention and the mod equipped.

Generally I hang back some and wait for red triangles. When I get them I lock, and fire if they're in range. Inevitably I lose the reticule right before I launch, or while the missles are in flight, so they don't hit worth a crap.

I realize ARTEMIS and TAG only work with direct line of sight - Something I don't get too often because if I move out the stalker is rather slow and I get shot up.

Any help would be great.

Thanks
Worms

[Nothing Whatsoever]

With five missile weapons, I assume the 5M? have you tried Smurfy's site? We could also help with build suggestions.

The Target Decay module can also help, but What I've done in my Battlemaster is stay closer to the enemy. If I fire beyond 450m I don't expect hits unless I know my target is slow and is in the open with no cover nearby, but I can at least count on some of the enemy trying to duck to cover.

The best thing to try is stay within ~200 to 350m of the enemy and apply the TAG if you see an enemy and use cover.

I assume that you are running MLs to help defend yourself and staying near at least one teammate because any slow isolated mech is a juicy target for veteran players.

Edit: Oh I forgot, also run a Beagle Active Probe. That is a very helpful piece of gear.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 30 May 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

What you are describing is a build that benefits greatly from teamwork and communication.

As you say, the Stalker can be a bit squishy & slow to go out and get it's own line of sight for missile locks, especially since you've gone so wholeheartedly into LRMs without some direct fire to back it up.

Without a dedicated spotter, it will be difficult to get and hod locks at long range- Targets have lots of time to get under a rock. If you can't play with teammates on comms, you will need to be much closer to the front line (shorter flight path for lrms, less time to seek cover), be patient (don't waste LRMs until your team is really engaging the enemy and holding locks), and don't be afraid to get your own lock (but not until the enemy is fighting a target that's in front of them and not looking for a missile boat)

[xMintaka]

Not sure how this would apply for a Stalker since I dont own one. But the following generally work even in an XL engined Orion.

If you have an XL engine in your Stalker, take it out. You have excellent hitboxes for spreading damage, so you actually can take punishment while you direct fire your LRM's. As long as you're staring at the mech that's shooting you, there's a good chance that damage is being spread across all three torsos. Taking too much damage to your right side? Show them your left. Taking an XL removes this aspect completely.

• Make sure you're second line. You can take punishment, but if mechs close on you you're going to have a bad day.

• Place your Tag in the highest mount possible.

• It's often worthwhile to inform your team in chat of your build. A simple "ALRMwhatever here, locks appreciated" often goes a long way. If you get harassed about getting your own locks/bitched at for anything else ignore it. Remember "R" stands for rain, you shouldn't have to remind people to target their enemies, but you do. That's just the way of it.

• Watch your missiles. Are they encountering a lot of AMS? If so, change target to one more suitable. Likewise, keep an eye on your crosshair. It'll turn red for a second if you score a hit.

• Unsure if your target is behind cover or not? Fire your smallest launcher. Crosshair goes red? Looks like it gon' rain.

Nothing is as effective as being on comms with a dedicated spotter calling out targets and tagging/NARCing for you or getting your own locks. Relying on indirect fire in pugs is, as you've been finding out, literally hit and miss.

Edited by Lunatech, 30 May 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[Void Angel]

What exactly are you running with that Stalker? Based on your description, I'd guess that you should ditch the SRMs in favor of more ammunition and/or a larger engine. I don't have a Stalker, but based on what I know, I'd recommend Something Like This. It sounds like you're having trouble being in the right place at the right time, so 57 kph is about the minimum I'd recommend. The LRM5s will also let you out of heat scale problems. And finally, remember that your laser mounts (including TAG) are higher than your head - you only have to poke up a tiny bit over the horizon to get a lock on the enemy.

When you use LRMs, you should follow a few simple rules:

• Know your target - how fast is your target moving, and how far away is he? If he's too far away and moving sideways into cover, you're probably better off saving your LRMs.
  
• Know your terrain - specifically, the terrain in between you and your target; LRMs doesn't stand for "Long Range Mining," so if you're smashing your volleys into hillsides, it's time to hold your fire. Similarly:
  
• Maintain a good position - don't be fooled by that 1000m number; optimum engagement range for LRMs is about 300m. Keep close to your team, but with enough cushion that you can still shoot at enemies. The enemy will love to charge you if they think you're vulnerable, so always be paying attention to where you are in relation to your teammates - so that you can hide behind them and remain combat effective.
  
• Pay attention to fire lanes - specifically, pay attention to ways that you can get fire around their cover - this will not always be possible, but it is something you should pay attention to.

[Sky Hawk]

At the beginning is damage low... It's normal.. I had once 49 damage with 7 Assists... and than 79 damage with 2 Kills and 4 assist.. So I think.. 200 is not the worst..

- You need always BAP, if you use LRMs. Always!
- Many player use AMS nowdays (Apocalypse or so), so you must break it throught, if you want hit them (mean: LRM-Alpha, but least 30-40 Missiles at once, than some of them come through.)
- If you are not sure, that the target has AMS or not, use Alpha automatically. If it hasn't got, you can use chainfire later.
- Until you are not an "expert-LRM-Boater", use XL Engine and so many Ammo as you just can carry on.. (I hope you don't mind, if you dies, till your team wins. LRM-Boats are not made for living.) Later, if you had enough experience, you could change it back to STD, if you like match-end hand-to-hand combat.
- If you don't like overheating, use first LRM10 and LRM5 in your Stalker (You can see in Smurfy the tube numbers - 5M = 2x10 + 3x5). But then use them all (35) at once!
- If you want play more indirect, TAG and ARTEMIS is just useless weight for you.
- If you want play direct, use always TAG. (I hope you know it break the ECM shield too.)
- Don't forget, you can fire your missiles without target lock too. (So if your target don't move... Just crosshair and rain away!)
- You need big luck with your team, or a friend for spotting if you want really high damage numbers.
- Watch your missiles flightpath, there are too many hills, towers, mountains, whatever in this game... Too many... They eat your Ammos like hell...
- At last, if you want play with LRMs, you must be patient. And accept, that it could be that you can't fire a single missile in the whole match. (Your team don't use targeting ® or they play in a tunnel or cave or in the other end of the map...)

[Void Angel]

Oh yeah, I forgot to slap BAP on that Stalker; you can get by without it, but it can help. It's not a requirement any more, though - because while you can still get screwed with by an ECM light, those ECM lights that actually get up close to people are few and far between.

[Kjudoon]

Nice build Void, but I'd modify it a bit.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29ef316a37f0f1d

I don't run stalkers because they're too slow, but I do know if you're going to run standard engines, run CASE with your Ammo. I'm also not a fan of standard engines, but 36 volleys of 50LRMs will do some damage, and BAP will help out massively when nobody's able to get locks through the ECM.

[Void Angel]

Once you go below three mediums, you'd be better off biting the bullet and just bringing more ammo. The build is just a quick mock-up, though - I didn't put Beagle in, for example, even though I generally put it on all my LRM boats.

However, it should be noted that CASE prevents explosion damage transfer into the equipped area, as well as out - so if I was going to add CASE and Beagle, my build would look More Like This.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Worms4u, on 30 May 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Alright so I've been playing for a while, October I think. I do pretty well for myself with direct fire weapons (450ish average a game, 2 kills, many assists).

Anyway.. I got a stalker recently with 2xLRM 20, 2xLRM10, and some SRM's for close range defense.

All missles have ARTEMIS, I also run with a tag.

Ok so - My best game was 200 damage. Terrible. I am hoping to explain how I pilot so someone can tell me what I am doing wrong.

First, I have target retention and the mod equipped.

Generally I hang back some and wait for red triangles. When I get them I lock, and fire if they're in range. Inevitably I lose the reticule right before I launch, or while the missles are in flight, so they don't hit worth a crap.

I realize ARTEMIS and TAG only work with direct line of sight - Something I don't get too often because if I move out the stalker is rather slow and I get shot up.

Any help would be great.

Thanks
Worms

Im sure your build is not the problem, but it does sound like it may need some tweaking. First get some BAP. A standard engine (sounds like you may have a xl engine atm)and setup a macro for your tag.

Anyhow. Don't worry about getting in close, but also do not stay to far out. instead try to stay with the main blob of mechs while remaining vigilant. Being near the mob reduces your chances of being light r8p3d.
Also to help avoid the loss of lock be aware of what is the cause of them being 'lit'. It may be jump snipers jumping to shoot which will lose lock once they come back down...instead try to make note if a light is around them or if there is any close combatants available to target, and be sure to be looking out for friendly UAV's. In this way you can fully support your team and not waste missiles.
Don't be afraid to be mobile, always be looking for better angles. If enemies know where your shooting from they will look for cover based on the last position they saw missiles coming from, maneuver to improve the angles of fire when needed and only stay in one place if enemies not clever enough to move out of the way/take cover.

My current stalker lrm boat >>> http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f7dc7d9c432909f. It has good armor, good dmg output, doesn't get overly hot, and has sufficient speed (if have speed tweak) when considering the use of a std engine.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 30 May 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[wanderer]

Oddly enough, Stalkers aren't my first choice for an assault LRM boat.

That goes to ye olde Awesome-8R or the Battlemaster-1S Why? Tubes per hardpoint. It's easy enough to put 45-50 tubes on one and have the entire lot firing in one nice, big wave at whatever you want dead, rather than a ragged salvo. It'll actually pack on up to 60 on an Awesome without ending up with part of the salvo firing in streams, but I hate seeing newbie assault pilots doing LRMs with more than 50 because you're eating ammo like mad. The -8R I like with 45 tubes (15/15/15), the -1S with 50 (15/15/10/10) works well. You're gonna be slow and clumsy, mind you. Heavy LRM boats are most classically the Catapult, but the Jagermech-A and multiple Orion chassis make excellent choices with 30-40 tubes (or rarely 45) and much better ground speed. Heck, I've used Cataphract-2X for suppression fire builds (that is, streaming 8-8-8-6 shots instead of the usual missile boat 15-15 for a pair of LRM 15's)!

XLs and LRM boats are an age-old debate. Being able to deliver from cover means you can take less damage while firing, with the drawback that once you DO get hammered with an XL, the odds are that you're dead fast. Me, I LIKE the tonnage savings and ground speed, finding that being able to pack a better engine rating saves me much more pain that being a slowbie in a standard. 67kph Battlemaster? Yeah, I'll take that over a 50kph standard engine 'Mech that can't move out of trouble. The easier you can get your tubes into firing position, the more you contribute. The faster you move, the harder it is to get stuck in trouble when your slow boaty butt finds itself suddenly nose first with an enemy lance in the wrong way.

Fire endurance > an extra 5-10 tubes, IMHO. Being able to fire on demand = being able to pin or herd targets with your missiles without worrying about running dry immediately. For that Stalker, I'd actually suggest starting off with paired 15's or 20's and nothing else for LRMs- but lots of ammo. Four launchers (or three), you don't need until you get used to moving that tubby thing around and getting clean shots. Start with:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4dfd6303f157033

Once you're more comfy with missiles:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6be2edba2a5b513

[Void Angel]

Oh, and something that can't be stressed enough: Assault 'mechs especially are very different to play once they're mastered. You'll need to get three variants of the Stalker in order to really get the most out of it, or any Assault.

[IraqiWalker]

From my personal experience, BAP is a waste of slots and tonnage if you have the advanced sensor range module (you should have it). All you get from BAP is a 25% increase to sensor range (same as the module, they stack, but it's useless, more on that below)

On the other hand. I will recommend you slap an XL engine in there. You want the mobility, don't worry about side torso damage, you shouldn't be receiving it in the first place.I'd recommend downgrading your LRM 20s to 15s. Much cooler, better cycle rate, and more efficient in ammo.

Artemis isn't that necessary, but if you have it, might as well use it.

Mount a few Medium lasers for defense, and make sure you start the match by telling your team you have loads of LRMs, and they should get you locks.

Also, have you elited the mech? Or is it on Basics? If so, then your performance is actually okay for now. It shouldn't take more than a day to fully basic it out, if you get lucky.

My BLR-1S runs XL295, 2xLRM15+2xLRM10+4xML with 2500 LRMs in it. I average out 500-700 damage a match, unless I die early.

Stick close to the fight (relatively). By that I mean stay within 600 meters, where the LRMs arc of fire actually jumps a bit.

Now for why BAP is useless:

Spoiler

BAP gives you the same bonus as the Advanced sensor range module, however, with the module you already can lock on to targets up to 1000 meters. Your longest ranged weapon (LRMS), isn't effective at that range and can't be used. Wasting 1.5 tons and 2 slots (enough to mount 1AMS with 1 ton of ammo), to lock on to targets that are 1250 meters away, is just that. A waste. The increased Target Info Gathering helps you see their condition faster, but if you are an LRM boat, you should be firing on them anyways, for both assist scores, suppression, and supporting your team anyways. Doesn't matter if they are fresh or wrecked. You should hit them with at least one salvo.

As for BAP's ability to counter ECM, that's also useless, once an ECM mech is in range for BAP to negate ECM, they are already within the minimum range of LRMs, and you're using MLs against them, for that ... You don't need locks.

As such, your module set up should be (once master and thus with 3 module slots, also based on priority):

1-Advanced Target Decay
2-Advanced Sensor Range
3-Seismic Sensor


Also, if you can get one fried to drop with you as a spotter (PM me if you need one). You should be set.

[plodder]

As a non lrm guy, hear me. There is awesome advice hear, it has been given. You should respond quickly to these fine folk.

Cold lock, anticipation fire= carpet bombing fire where you see enemy heading, firing without a lock, few do it, but can be very effective.

Lose the 20's untill skilled at lrms. Unless you use one 20 and supplement the er lrg lasers.

Go to 5 lrm 5's, 2 er large, 3 med or 2 med, extra heat sink.

Just as a non lrm guy, just sayin. Gl hf

[Abivard]

wow, lots of bad advice.

First, your build is not very optimal, strip off the srms, , either mount 4 lrm 15's or just 2 LRM 20's with 2 LRM5's or even 2 lrm15's with 2 LRM5's
Do NOT use XL engines in the stalker!
Equip BAP
Equip Tag
Equip Artemis
Target decay module
Equip at least 3 medium lasers
Do NOT equip case, it is worthless.
LRM ammo should be stored in head, arms, legs and center torso, never in a side torso(which btw is the only place case could be equipped if one was silly enough to equip it at all).
Try to always Engage enemy at 200M to 450M
Watch for targets that have been narcd.
Fire on the same target as any other LRM equipped mechs are firing on.
Always try and have direct Line of sight and Tag on your target.
Do not allow your stalker to have a top speed under 55kph
Don't forget to use your lasers.
AMS is actually optional but recommended.

Realize that LRM's truly are the most difficult weapon to MASTER, but are also the easiest weapon to learn to use in destroying clueless or new players.

And also know that I have but just scratched the bare basics of LRM use in this post.

[Abivard]

ps,
The Stalker 5M runs best with 4 ML, tag and 5 LRM5 launchers.
Stalker 5H is best with a pair of LRM 20's or a pair of lrm 15's with a pair of LRM5's in torso along with tag and 3ML

Those are the two best Stalker variants for LRM builds.

[IraqiWalker]

I like most of your advice, except for these points:

Abivard, on 30 May 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Do NOT use XL engines in the stalker!

As an LRM boat stalker he should use an XL engine. Yeah, don't put XL in stalkers if they are supposed to see front line combat. I agree with that. Not when it's an LRM boat, and should stay at least 400 meters away from the front line behind cover. The XL is going to allow him to put lots of ammo in there, and allow him to move fast (helping achieve your goal of never going below 55Kph)

Abivard, on 30 May 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Equip BAP

Absolutely useless on an LRM boat, especially once you get the Advanced sensor range module

Abivard, on 30 May 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Equip Artemis

Optional, and works best with a small launcher count (2-3 launchers) beyond that, it can be problematic, and is more of a personal taste, than mandatory. The slots and tonnage paid for it, don't justify sacrificing in this case 4-5 tons of ammo. Again, more of a personal preference.

The rest is mostly fine and dandy (you should be able to put case in the legs IIRC, btw.

Abivard, on 30 May 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Always try and have direct Line of sight and Tag on your target.

The exact opposite is what he should do. At least if he has spotters, if he has none, then fine. However, as long as there are teammates that can spot for that stalker, the pilot should never be exposed from cover.

Everything else beyond this point is also great. (Put AMS instead of BAP, same tonnage, same slots, actually useful for you)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 31 May 2014 - 01:01 AM.

[Abivard]

IraqiWalker, on 31 May 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

I like most of your advice, except for these points:


As an LRM boat stalker he should use an XL engine. Yeah, don't put XL in stalkers if they are supposed to see front line combat. I agree with that. Not when it's an LRM boat, and should stay at least 400 meters away from the front line behind cover. The XL is going to allow him to put lots of ammo in there, and allow him to move fast (helping achieve your goal of never going below 55Kph)


Absolutely useless on an LRM boat, especially once you get the Advanced sensor range module


Optional, and works best with a small launcher count (2-3 launchers) beyond that, it can be problematic, and is more of a personal taste, than mandatory. The slots and tonnage paid for it, don't justify sacrificing in this case 4-5 tons of ammo. Again, more of a personal preference.

The rest is mostly fine and dandy (you should be able to put case in the legs IIRC, btw.


The exact opposite is what he should do. At least if he has spotters, if he has none, then fine. However, as long as there are teammates that can spot for that stalker, the pilot should never be exposed from cover.

Everything else beyond this point is also great. (Put AMS instead of BAP, same tonnage, same slots, actually useful for you)

you are wrong.

[Abivard]

IraqiWalker, on 30 May 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

From my personal experience, BAP is a waste of slots and tonnage if you have the advanced sensor range module (you should have it). All you get from BAP is a 25% increase to sensor range (same as the module, they stack, but it's useless, more on that below)

On the other hand. I will recommend you slap an XL engine in there. You want the mobility, don't worry about side torso damage, you shouldn't be receiving it in the first place.I'd recommend downgrading your LRM 20s to 15s. Much cooler, better cycle rate, and more efficient in ammo.

Artemis isn't that necessary, but if you have it, might as well use it.

Mount a few Medium lasers for defense, and make sure you start the match by telling your team you have loads of LRMs, and they should get you locks.

Also, have you elited the mech? Or is it on Basics? If so, then your performance is actually okay for now. It shouldn't take more than a day to fully basic it out, if you get lucky.

My BLR-1S runs XL295, 2xLRM15+2xLRM10+4xML with 2500 LRMs in it. I average out 500-700 damage a match, unless I die early.

Stick close to the fight (relatively). By that I mean stay within 600 meters, where the LRMs arc of fire actually jumps a bit.

Now for why BAP is useless:

Spoiler

BAP gives you the same bonus as the Advanced sensor range module, however, with the module you already can lock on to targets up to 1000 meters. Your longest ranged weapon (LRMS), isn't effective at that range and can't be used. Wasting 1.5 tons and 2 slots (enough to mount 1AMS with 1 ton of ammo), to lock on to targets that are 1250 meters away, is just that. A waste. The increased Target Info Gathering helps you see their condition faster, but if you are an LRM boat, you should be firing on them anyways, for both assist scores, suppression, and supporting your team anyways. Doesn't matter if they are fresh or wrecked. You should hit them with at least one salvo.

As for BAP's ability to counter ECM, that's also useless, once an ECM mech is in range for BAP to negate ECM, they are already within the minimum range of LRMs, and you're using MLs against them, for that ... You don't need locks.

As such, your module set up should be (once master and thus with 3 module slots, also based on priority):

1-Advanced Target Decay
2-Advanced Sensor Range
3-Seismic Sensor


Also, if you can get one fried to drop with you as a spotter (PM me if you need one). You should be set.

You seem to be a complete Stalker novice.

Stalker's ALWAYS get hit in the side torsos, ALWAYS!!!!!, you do not lose arms, you lose your torso and the arm that was attached to it!

Mastered Stalkers have only TWO module slots! advance sensor module is one of the most useless modules out there, a complete waste of module space, any stalker mounting this is a net loss to their team. Which is why BAP is needed.

Advanced Target decay,
then a choice, either seismic or Arty.

Firing LRM's at ranges greater than 450M is a waste of ammo in most cases, firing indirect is also a waste of ammo in most cases, Not having artemis is bad,bad,bad. Not having TAG is very bad, in fact it is a distinct detriment.

DO NOT stray from the team, stay very close to your main body.

Your optimum engagement range is between 190M and 270M with a direct line of sight and your own tag on the target, This allows you to use your 3 to 5 Medium lasers as well as your LRM launchers, you do have at LEAST 3 MLasers, Right?

Always be moving, whether simply rocking back and forth or running along the back of your front line mechs.

Always count on your teammates to NEVER target an enemy mech!

Learn when to chain fire and when to group fire.

When you fire at an indirect target, carefully observe the effect of your LRM fire by watching both the missiles and your crosshairs to make sure it flashes red indicating that your missiles are hitting the mech and not an obstruction, if it is not turning red when the missiles reach the target, stop firing.

There is a lot to learn about LRM's in order to master them and make them effective against anyone, but anyone can make them easily devastate new or stupid players.

[xMintaka]

When considering Artemis, it's worth thinking about how you play. If you prefer to sit behind a ridge and hope your teammates will hold locks for you or if you are more proactive about tagging and getting your own locks.

I get my own locks most of the time (ALRM50 Orion-V), so Artemis is a must have. The tighter grouping that tag brings with Artemis absolutely flattens mechs.

However if you rely on others to lock for you, you may have a better use for the tonnage and crits.

BAP is, imho, mandatory if LRM's are your main weapon system. It rarely happens but at some point an ECM light will come and run circles around ypu. 3Mlas wont chase it off and you'll be down to dumbfiring til the light takes you out. With practice, dumbfiring is a useful and fairly effective tactic. But the key there is practice, while you learn flight times and trajectories you'll waste a whole bunch of ammo.

Having fought against numerous trial Stalkers, I'd stay far away from an XL while you learn. Once you know what you're doing you can decide for yourself.
Otherwise all it takes is a few well placed shots from a savvy player and you're down. With a standard you'll still have half your firepower remaining.