174 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

StillRadioactive, on 04 June 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Hopefully this is our Ravager Affinity moment, and we can go back to having a healthy metagame once it's resolved. Nothing would make me happier.

I dunno how useful it is - but that very little bit of heat from Flamers is fairly effective against Multi-PPC mechs.

Especially if you have 2+ on chain fire

[StillRadioactive]

Shar Wolf, on 04 June 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

I dunno how useful it is - but that very little bit of heat from Flamers is fairly effective against Multi-PPC mechs.

Especially if you have 2+ on chain fire

There are plenty of things that'll wreck a dual-PPC 'mech 1v1... the problem is that 8 of them in a murderball will instagib just about everything that comes within 650m of them.

[Celem]

Hah loved it, the second half also contained a great MTG analogy. I dont remember Arcbound, but there was this little demon thing somewhere, azog, azgog, dunno, way back. Anyway, similar effect, sac artifacts for +1 counters, but died when used and unblockable dmg straight to hp pool. We had a small group of informal players and one brought him and an artifact land deck with bionics and managed to meta up a group of only 6 into artifact sac vs cogs delay. Source of our first 2 house rules. No arti sac cos nobody likes ac/20 to the face in turn 8 and no cogs because games simply should not take 90 turns.

Meta sucks. And fwiw I stood by various combos of black/green speed for 10 years. Just keep evolving them to try and break the current spam.

Edited by Celem, 04 June 2014 - 03:58 PM.

[Nikkoru]

A great writeup.

It shows a real problem with the game right now. They are spending time fine-tuning lrms when they should be nerfing jump sniping.

[IraqiWalker]

StillRadioactive, on 04 June 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

OP

Radioactive, I have always liked you, now I like you more. Especially with this detailed explanation, and rational description. Plus, you play MtG as well!

[Nastyogre]

Solution is really simple. Weapons don't fire when jump jets are engaged or your feet are off the ground. You don't fire during the jump in Table Top, Make you land, and jump sniping is dead. Justify it any way you like, too much power to boost and land, throwing 400 lbs munitions at mach 6 would make you fall flat on your back.

Get rid of shooting while jumping and its over. Jump jets become what they are supposed to be, a way to maneuver. Currently they are all too often used as the delivery mechanism for firepower.

Thankfully, I'm not good enough to see Top Tier play very often.

[Alaskan Nobody]

StillRadioactive, on 04 June 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

There are plenty of things that'll wreck a dual-PPC 'mech 1v1... the problem is that 8 of them in a murderball will instagib just about everything that comes within 650m of them.

True - but as the PPC is a fair part of the current set of meta builds - and is extra vulnerable to the Flamer (due to it's heat)

It may not be much of a build - but how many counters are?

Stiletto, on 04 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

You don't fire during the jump in Table Top

Ahhhh.

Yes.

Yes you do.

You take an accuracy penalty for it, but you can do it.

[IraqiWalker]

Stiletto, on 04 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Solution is really simple. Weapons don't fire when jump jets are engaged or your feet are off the ground. You don't fire during the jump in Table Top, Make you land, and jump sniping is dead. Justify it any way you like, too much power to boost and land, throwing 400 lbs munitions at mach 6 would make you fall flat on your back.

Get rid of shooting while jumping and its over. Jump jets become what they are supposed to be, a way to maneuver. Currently they are all too often used as the delivery mechanism for firepower.

Thankfully, I'm not good enough to see Top Tier play very often.

That's a bad solution.

First of all, poptarting has always been a thing that is done. In tabletop, and even in the old video games. In fact, I clearly remember a couple of missions in one of the MW4 games, where you will run into multiple poptarting shadowcats.

Also, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the lore will back me up on jump sniping being a thing that happens. Also, getting knocked back or whatnot mid air when firing your guns, will only happen AFTER the shot is fired. Doesn't stop the shot from being fired.

[Koniving]

Just to mention it.. We do have Clan mechs coming around the corner. It's my sincere hope that there will be some serious balancing overhauls with them coming. There's also Karl Berg (one of the developers) stating that some "TT" style balancing tweaks may be done in regards to poptarting. What exactly we don't know.

So meta might change in the near future. I give it 3 months? (Because honestly if it hasn't changed by then I'm gonna be too frustrated with this game and take a break).

[IraqiWalker]

Koniving, on 04 June 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Just to mention it.. We do have Clan mechs coming around the corner. It's my sincere hope that there will be some serious balancing overhauls with them coming. There's also Karl Berg (one of the developers) stating that some "TT" style balancing tweaks may be done in regards to poptarting. What exactly we don't know.

So meta might change in the near future. I give it 3 months? (Because honestly if it hasn't changed by then I'm gonna be too frustrated with this game and take a break).

I'm honestly not expecting any drastic changes until December.

[Koniving]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

First of all, poptarting has always been a thing that is done. In tabletop, and even in the old video games. In fact, I clearly remember a couple of missions in one of the MW4 games, where you will run into multiple poptarting shadowcats.

Also, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the lore will back me up on jump sniping being a thing that happens. Also, getting knocked back or whatnot mid air when firing your guns, will only happen AFTER the shot is fired. Doesn't stop the shot from being fired.

True, yes.
However, jump sniping was an incredibly difficult task. (With 2/3 pilots; semi-elite, my jump sniper couldn't hit anything. I finally stopped jumping and went with running; the penalty was lighter and I was able to land most of my shots. I eventually shifted to walking, landed every shot. Stopped moving altogether, landed every shot with such great rolls that I one-shotted an Annihilator to the point of destroying its Gyro with a through-armor critical. It collapsed and never did get back up).

It should be difficult. A longer shake on the downfall might be enough, requiring them to jump higher. The ability to literally knock an enemy down so it can't land on its feet would also be nice.

[IraqiWalker]

Koniving, on 04 June 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

True, yes.
However, jump sniping was an incredibly difficult task. (With 2/3 pilots; semi-elite, my jump sniper couldn't hit anything. I finally stopped jumping and went with running; the penalty was lighter and I was able to land most of my shots. I eventually shifted to walking, landed every shot. Stopped moving altogether, landed every shot with such great rolls that I one-shotted an Annihilator to the point of destroying its Gyro with a through-armor critical. It collapsed and never did get back up).

It should be difficult. A longer shake on the downfall might be enough, requiring them to jump higher. The ability to literally knock an enemy down so it can't land on its feet would also be nice.

I will agree with that to some degree.

Personally what jump jets do now, and how they behave is fine by me. I would like them to have a bit of a shake when falling down.

Honestly, if we really want to nerf JJs down right now. Make them move mechs at 200KpH. Good luck aiming a shot at the apex of that jump when you're moving that fast, and shaking that much.

However, that would make lights and mediums with JJs, absolute nightmares to deal with.

[Ertur]

The real 'meta' isn't PPC/AC5/Jumpsniper or whatever else. If you take the top 4 finishers from the tournament and tell them they have to use brawling mechs, they would still win out (at worst one may fall in the quarterfinals).

The real meta's are 1. teamwork and 2. focus fire.

Obviously, therefore, teamwork is OP and must be nerfed.

[Koniving]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Honestly, if we really want to nerf JJs down right now. Make them move mechs at 200KpH. Good luck aiming a shot at the apex of that jump when you're moving that fast, and shaking that much.

However, that would make lights and mediums with JJs, absolute nightmares to deal with.

Forward momentum is something I highly agree with. With the angle of many jumpjets there isn't enough of it. Jump 30 meters into the air, move 3 meters forward. Nope.

Jump 30 meters into the air, move 30 meters forward.

Ertur, on 04 June 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

The real meta's are 1. teamwork and 2. focus fire.

Number 3. Use weapons that do the most damage in the least bit of time.
Covers meta weapons.

[TiguriusX]

Staying loyal to canon shouldn't prevent game balancing.

They already made up rules about firing multiple weapons for a single type creating ghost heat.

The new rules could focus on JJ being for maneuver and defense by giving a defensive bonus in exchange for not being able to fire (that cockpit shake is no longer limited to the jumper...make the whole thing zig and zag while mid air to prevent pin point shots at the clay pigeon).

They can even split the difference and let you fire missiles while jumping but no direct fire (so the close in SRM and streak jumpers aren't nerfed).

Edited by TiguriusX, 04 June 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[loopala]

meta shameta . there some really good players out there that get together and steam roll players that have no situational awareness. yeah the jump sniper is a beast but it can be killed. just like the twin ac20/gauss jag. tactics and team work are key. a team that works together will slam a team of individuals. case in point pug dropped into a mixed team that was lrm heavy, like 6 boats one of which was a ddc with ecm. rest fast mediums/lights. boats all stuck together under ecm. the rest of us just went forward and drew fire. every time a mech jumped up to fire it was locked up by at least 2 of us. lrms on the way. splat. 6 1/2 minutes of red team tries to snipe fast moving mech ducking in and out of cover only to get lrmed to death. and yes the other team questioned our parentage in flowery language. the truth be known if they had been a bit more on the ball and sent a few mechs to flank our boats the game would of went the other way.

some games the windshield, some games the bug. as i pug i expect to get pounded by premades. but those times were a group of individuals click and the meta masters fall are worth the poundings.

[Deitz]

I appreciate StillRadioactive’s post. I would like to point out a few of my own observations.

When I first started playing this game you had LRM boats, PPC Stalkers, Splat cats, and Streak cats. Poor Mr Pugglesworth couldn’t handle that, a pug started to whine, and PGI stepped in and made changes that affected the game in its current step up. The ultimate “HEAT NERF” Now we don’t see any more specialized builds. Personally I loved trying to beat those builds, and really enjoyed the game for it.

Now we have the pop tart. Usually 2 PPC’s, and 2 AC or UAC5’s, possibly a Gauss rifle, for a total average alpha strike of 30 damage points. Not really a big deal? I have an Atlas with a 68.7 Alpha strike I can get two alphas on Terra Therma. So what’s the big deal? The deal is the pilot. Nothing less, nothing more. You will always have people working at something and striving to be better than everyone else. As long as that is possible, you can bet it will continue to happen. Fix pop tarting and something else will take its place. In the realm of balancing, PGI needs to be extremely careful. If you develop a game where you can’t be any better than the guy next to you, you will most likely not have a game worth playing.

I have a better idea for Mr Pugglesworth. Why don’t you honestly evaluate your own game play and stop making excuses for your failures. Figure out where you went wrong, and work a solution and not place blame elsewhere. Put your big boy paints on and figure it out. How about moving in a clockwise fashion and getting in close, making those PPC’s useless? Get in within 80 meters, and you’ve cut off 2/3’s of their firepower. Get a LRM boat with tag. Get a friend to spot for you. Pop a UAV on a pop tarter and watch them fall.

Mr Pugglesworth also made a few complaints about Artillery and Air Strike. Headshots were happening all too often to the regular PUGer just standing there not moving. I personally would like to thank PGI for the current buff of the Artillery and Air Strike. Yes I said buff. I call it a buff because I’ve done more damage in the last few days with Artillery and Air Strikes, than on regular bases. I know they took a few points of damage off of each round and spread out the affective area, but now pilots are just running into that new area of damage and getting ate up.

Don’t try to get the developers to make a game you can play well. Find a game that you understand and develop a skill around that game. If you don’t want a game that you don’t have to put much thought into, I heard Harken has re-spawns?

Edited by Deitz, 04 June 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Exactly like what others are saying. Poptarting isn't really the problem.

In my experience, it's usually the players, that are the real problem. A lot of people don't know how to deal with those play styles, or how to counter them. Many don't make the effort to deal with them. That's where the problem really begins. If you are stuck into one play style and the game switches to the point where that style of play is shut down, you have to evolve and adapt.

I don't run meta mechs. I dislike the poptart sniper play style. The closest I come to it, is my Ember, and my Gauss+ERPPC shadowhawk 5M, you can even add my COM-2D, but I've been playing that mech since the days when people said that all commandos are trash. However, I don't complain about meta mechs, or about losing to them. I learned how to shut them down, and how to counter them.

Part of it is that I run a light mech, which allows me to get into position to plant an arty strike or an air strike on top of their skulls. Suppressing them long enough for my team to rush them and slaughter them. If you are dropping solo, bring strikes with you. You will need them every now and then to allow for suppression, since you can't coordinate suppression through chat easily.

If you drop with a group, then poptarts are easy to isolate, suppress, and destroy, easily. I usually run the "LOOK OVER HERE!" strategy, and distract them, long enough for my lance mates to flank them, and just annihilate them. Regardless of whether we're running lights or not.

I also take the occasional suicidal charge, to get to within 100 meters of the poptart, and force him to either suppress the other 5 mechs charging him, or lose his rear armor and die to me. Nothing like being stuck between a stone grinder and a combine harvester.

[Davic Kerensky]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

First of all, poptarting has always been a thing that is done. In tabletop, and even in the old video games. In fact, I clearly remember a couple of missions in one of the MW4 games, where you will run into multiple poptarting shadowcats.

I remember them ! .. was an evil moment, but as you say it was apart of the game. Just have to find ways to adapt to null the action better.

[Jarvis Lancaster]

I never go in for the sure-win strategy. Whether it's MTG MWO or tic-tac-toe because I like to immerse myself in dynamic strategy. I play as the fair opponent I want to duel, not the jerk who sucker-punches people.