174 replies to this topic

[L Y N X]

If PGI would simply make the JJ recharge take 30 seconds then you would still allow jumping w/o the bunny hopping of poptarting.

[IraqiWalker]

7ynx, on 04 June 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

If PGI would simply make the JJ recharge take 30 seconds then you would still allow jumping w/o the bunny hopping of poptarting.

That would cripple the jj lights, and mediums, and render JJs almost useless. In TT terms, that's using the JJ once every THREE turns. Might as well delete JJs then.

By the way, this still won't fix the meta problem. It's gonna shift into SRM toting brawlers, and MPLs, with LBXs, and then what? Nerf those weapons too?

Jump sniping is fine as it is. Instant convergence is what needs to be modified, and turning ACs into the medium range rapid fire weapons they were supposed to be would be a better, more balanced solution, that won't penalize people.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 04 June 2014 - 09:02 PM.

[Deitz]

There you go trying to changing the game to suit your play style. I think I found Mr Pugglesworth?

Edited by Deitz, 04 June 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Void Angel]

Rim Kerenski, on 04 June 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

As someone who played beta and then just came back, it is the "I win" button. Whoever has the moeny to buy them and the luck of dropping in with enough jump snipers wins in the random 12v12 fights. If I had known this would be the meta(or that this narrow of one would develope) when spending founders perks months ago or had the money to drop on this game to change out all my mechs, then yeah, its just a matter of following the herd. But for a lot of, let us say "casual", players its a big turn off when you realize your favorite mech or weapons are worthless in the current environment and you would have to suffer through a countless number of games to change your inventory to soemthing useful. At that point why keep playing? Why be someone else's punching bag for weeks when you can just log into another game? I have been playing some kind of BT or MW game since the 80s; so I want a variety, to see different mechs on the field and to be able to use thos emechs on a semi-even ground. Unfortunately its "whoever brought the most pop-tarts wins." good MTG anaology.

If you've just started up again, your Elo will likely not reflect your skill level - at the entry level of Elo and somewhat above, you have a lot of players who don't really know how jump snipers work. Some of these people are playing jump snipers, mind, but the point is that your teammates often will not know how to deal with a team of camping poptarts. This will lead to the accurate observation that the team with the most jump snipers wins, but it doesn't necessarily follow that poptarts are an iwin button. As you start to rise toward the upper range of the Elo rankings, you'll find that there's a place where the lazy poptarts who assume it will be easy are weeded out, and a lot of people who don't prefer that playstyle are rocking other 'Mechs. Still, the top Elo levels will use the pinpoint-alpha PPC+ meta builds unless they're playing around or tinkering, because that build type is significantly more effective than anything else.

So, having more poptarts doesn't guarantee win - though it helps. Skill and tactics can still make anything effective if your team works together better than theirs, but you'll have to take the time to adapt to the high level of learned helplessness exhibited by many players - the game has been conditioning them to view getting shot at range as a prelude to rapid death. This makes them timid, to the point that people have written excellent guides about it! Seriously, though, once you get used to the way players respond to the game, it'll get better for you.

[Davic Kerensky]

Jarvis Lancaster, on 04 June 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

I never go in for the sure-win strategy. Whether it's MTG MWO or tic-tac-toe because I like to immerse myself in dynamic strategy. I play as the fair opponent I want to duel, not the jerk who sucker-punches people.

This caps of my sentiments about being a Mechwarrior, but maybe at some point they will bring a more 'diverse' level of public gameplay instead of making it just 'Pay us and you can have' as in the 'private' match-up. Would love to see in the final layout a 'scenario' basis of operations ... setups from Mechwarrior stories.

[Gasoline]

Good write-up OP. Interesting MTG reference (started MTG during Arabian Nights and stopped actively playing after Ice Age and collecting after Tempest), so this totally went past my playing experience.

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

That's a bad solution.

First of all, poptarting has always been a thing that is done. In tabletop, and even in the old video games. In fact, I clearly remember a couple of missions in one of the MW4 games, where you will run into multiple poptarting shadowcats.

Also, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the lore will back me up on jump sniping being a thing that happens. Also, getting knocked back or whatnot mid air when firing your guns, will only happen AFTER the shot is fired. Doesn't stop the shot from being fired.

Agreed.

I thought about something like either cockpit shake stays the same when dropping from a jump (a tad bit unrealistic - but hey, we're talking about a game where lasers have maximum ranges) or make it so the arms have a downward momentum while moving up and an upward momentum while dropping down (arm crosshair decenters upwards - way less focus damage). I think I like the second idea more, cos it's still possible to jump snipe, but it's way more difficult and you cannot focus fire (usually PPCs and AC's are spread over arms and torso).

Koniving, on 04 June 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Just to mention it.. We do have Clan mechs coming around the corner. It's my sincere hope that there will be some serious balancing overhauls with them coming. There's also Karl Berg (one of the developers) stating that some "TT" style balancing tweaks may be done in regards to poptarting. What exactly we don't know.

So meta might change in the near future. I give it 3 months? (Because honestly if it hasn't changed by then I'm gonna be too frustrated with this game and take a break).

Yep, I'm really looking forward to information regarding those TT balancing plans. Karl didn't respond to my question yet, so I'm not quite sure what to expect. Frustration is really an issue currently (read that many times from different people and sharing some pain myself.

Given that the S variants of the Clan chassis (so a jumpable Timber Wolf) will stay and that we'll get a chassis that is perfectly suited to jump sniping (Summoner) we might see even more poptarting soon.

[Ursh]

If teamwork and focusfire were the only real meta, then the top teams in the tournament would have been full of more diverse loadouts and tactics rather than focusing on having their absolute best players in the role of jump-snipers as the core of their plan.

If it was so easy to isolate and kill jump-snipers, that would have shown up in the tournament. If you're such a good shot that you can wtfpwn any jump-sniper you come across, then why aren't the top teams beating down your door to recruit you?

The reality at my ELO level is that there are usually no more than 2-3 poptarts on the enemy team, and usually only one of them is any good, so they don't have a drastic impact on the match. If 2 or more of them are good though, and they're in voice comms, they're devastating, which is where the problem is.

At least when a land-based team coordinates with focus fire, they're exposing themselves in order to do damage. Jump-sniping for people who are good shots is simply too much reward for too little risk.

[IraqiWalker]

Ursh, on 04 June 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

If teamwork and focusfire were the only real meta, then the top teams in the tournament would have been full of more diverse loadouts and tactics rather than focusing on having their absolute best players in the role of jump-snipers as the core of their plan.

If it was so easy to isolate and kill jump-snipers, that would have shown up in the tournament. If you're such a good shot that you can wtfpwn any jump-sniper you come across, then why aren't the top teams beating down your door to recruit you?

The reality at my ELO level is that there are usually no more than 2-3 poptarts on the enemy team, and usually only one of them is any good, so they don't have a drastic impact on the match. If 2 or more of them are good though, and they're in voice comms, they're devastating, which is where the problem is.

At least when a land-based team coordinates with focus fire, they're exposing themselves in order to do damage. Jump-sniping for people who are good shots is simply too much reward for too little risk.

It's simple.

The key element is coordination. The pro teams can pull off having 6+ poptarts because they use focus fire, and that's why they are using poptarts, instead of varied builds. This way they can all jump at the same time, and drop one or two mechs in each jump.

I'm not a super good player, I just know what to do to counter them, also all the scenarios I am talking about are PuG drops. As such there are no more than 3-4 poptarts per team. I drop in a lance most of the time, hence why it's easy for me to isolate them and kill them with my lance. On the other hand, when I drop solo, that's where the strikes really come in.

You might want to double check my post, and also consider that teamwork and coordination are the most OP. That's why competitive teams run almost identical min maxed builds. That way it's even easier to coordinate, and focus fire becomes even more OP.

Teamwork and focus fire are independent from mech build. You can do that in any mech. However, fielding similar mechs makes it even easier, and fielding similar meta mechs, makes your job of killing people even easier.

The main proof of it, is that the competitive scene is always 12 v 12. Why is it you don't see anything else as competitive? People have to be on comms. That's because comms fascilitate coordination. Otherwise why aren't pro matches just 12 solo drops on each side?

[Celem]

A lot of people saying that it's the players not the tactics here. Learn to handle the tactic. I'd agree to a point.

Yes theres a player skill gulf in the OP example with Mr Pugglesworth. He just sucks compared to whoever is in the poptart.
This isnt always the case, even if you are super pro, you still have to face blobs of poptarts (probably from inside one yourself).

The problem here isnt poptart sniping, the OP never claimed that. The problem is that its become one of only a few tactics that seems to dominate the endgame.

I can handle a poptarting victor, no sweat, there are a handful of ways to counter that situation.
8 poptarts however is a handful even for a co-ordinated lance on comms, Its a 360 degree ball of fire that you cant catch by surprise and always has the height advantage. The answer of course is just more teamwork.

Again: the problem isnt the tactic; its the fact that the tactic is so pervasive. It doesnt need a full nerf, as pointed out that just brings another build to the top, what would be better is a slight tweak to take the edge off it and make a few reconsider a differant build. Much of the 'threat' of this move is when the entire team is doing it. If they bring only 1 single poptart, well he's the first kill as he skylines himself early in the match.

Please note the OP used poptart ppc as an example of what 'meta' actually is. In the case of MWO correctly identified. The complaints therefore should not be aimed at poptarting, which is a cool idea and tactically sound, but whatever stagnation we have in the mechanics thats allowed it to become 'cookie-cutter' (a go-to build)

(TT thoughts: we had a few guys liked to jumpsnipe on TT and later in Muxes. It took insane pilot skills to hit anything and you got wtfpwned by flyers if you tried to jump from the same spot twice. It saw use mainly as suppression during bounding horizontal leaps. It seems like some of the counterbalances are simply not implemented here)

Edited by Celem, 04 June 2014 - 11:16 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Celem, on 04 June 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

A lot of people saying that it's the players not the tactics here. Learn to handle the tactic. I'd agree to a point.

Yes theres a player skill gulf in the OP example with Mr Pugglesworth. He just sucks compared to whoever is in the poptart.
This isnt always the case, even if you are super pro, you still have to face blobs of poptarts (probably from inside one yourself).

The problem here isnt poptart sniping, the OP never claimed that. The problem is that its become one of only a few tactics that seems to dominate the endgame.

I can handle a poptarting victor, no sweat, there are a handful of ways to counter that situation.
8 poptarts however is a handful even for a co-ordinated lance on comms, Its a 360 degree ball of fire that you cant catch by surprise and always has the height advantage. The answer of course is just more teamwork.

Again: the problem isnt the tactic; its the fact that the tactic is so pervasive. It doesnt need a full nerf, as pointed out that just brings another build to the top, what would be better is a slight tweak to take the edge off it and make a few reconsider a differant build. Much of the 'threat' of this move is when the entire team is doing it. If they bring only 1 single poptart, well he's the first kill as he skylines himself early in the match.

Please note the OP used poptart ppc as an example of what 'meta' actually is. In the case of MWO correctly identified. The complaints therefore should not be aimed at poptarting, which is a cool idea and tactically sound, but whatever stagnation we have in the mechanics thats allowed it to become 'cookie-cutter' (a go-to build)

(TT thoughts: we had a few guys liked to jumpsnipe on TT and later in Muxes. It took insane pilot skills to hit anything and you got wtfpwned by flyers if you tried to jump from the same spot twice. It saw use mainly as suppression during bounding horizontal leaps. It seems like some of the counterbalances are simply not implemented here)

Great post there, mate. I agree with a lot of it.

I honestly think that a lot of problems we are having right now could get mitigated when they add an in-game chat client (I know about C3, but they mentioned working on an integrated one, being part of the game, and allowing everyone to use it.)

[MX Duke]

I played magic the gathering, was decent at it. But the biggest difference between MTG and any MMORG is simply venue. In a card game, 90% of the people playing it are friends, playing in small groups, in basements, or small hometown venues. I played exclusively in the back room of a game shop that sold a variety of board games (including Battle Tech Table top). I played with about twenty other people from the neighborhood. There were a few, like two or three, that aspired to be professional at it, always talking about the tournaments and what decks people used, but most of us just wanted to play, collect the cards, trade them, and have a good time doing it.

I just spelled out the exact difference between the PUG and the meta Gamer. I'm a pug, I play to play, sometimes with friends in a four man, sometimes alone.

Anyways, back to my point. In a MMORG everyone plays in the same place, in the same terms, at the same time. You get to mix it up with the meta players, and you get to hear ALL the whiners. And the biggest mistake any game dev can make is to take the squeaky wheel to seriously. Get one small group of people that make a huge fuss about something they don't understand, and that dev acts hastily on it, and BOOM, blown meta. Game dynamics are sensitive, people are sensitive, and the squeakiest wheel gets the grease. And my answer, TAKE A CHILL PILL!

I own a misery, and I love it. its my best mech, and my stats prove it. Its the only mech I have a positive win rate in, and I can counter poptarts all day long in it. Its really simple. I use cover, every map has it, and has tons of it. I move with the group, Straggle behind or as my clan leader would say, "Venture out into the wild blue yonder" and your dead. Keep their heads down, if they pop up, blast them, you'll find they won't test your alpha strike to often. And understand the lemmings. Pugs don't communicate like you think, but they do communicate. Very simply, you average pug is watching the map, the indicators on the hud, all those red and blue dots and arrows. There going to follow the red ones and try to stay with the blue. Light your target, you will most likely get a a few heads to turn when you do. You going to have idiots. They are everywhere. Some times they are many, and sometimes they are few. Don't let them get you down. They are not the majority, they're just annoying.

There are two types of whiners, and they are in every game, constantly competing to be the loudest. The people who don't understand the game mechanics, or are just to lazy to learn and adapt. And the uber elite, that think everyone should be as good as they are, and have no patients for the ones that aren't. And then theirs me, I play to play, to socialize, and to have fun. I'm the one that makes up the majority of the player base, so I'm the one that's paying the bills, and I'm the last one that the devs want to run off. So, play and have fun, and TAKE A CHILL PILL!

[Void Angel]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

It's simple.

The key element is coordination. The pro teams can pull off having 6+ poptarts because they use focus fire, and that's why they are using poptarts, instead of varied builds. This way they can all jump at the same time, and drop one or two mechs in each jump.

I'm not a super good player, I just know what to do to counter them, also all the scenarios I am talking about are PuG drops. As such there are no more than 3-4 poptarts per team. I drop in a lance most of the time, hence why it's easy for me to isolate them and kill them with my lance. On the other hand, when I drop solo, that's where the strikes really come in.

You might want to double check my post, and also consider that teamwork and coordination are the most OP. That's why competitive teams run almost identical min maxed builds. That way it's even easier to coordinate, and focus fire becomes even more OP.

Teamwork and focus fire are independent from mech build. You can do that in any mech. However, fielding similar mechs makes it even easier, and fielding similar meta mechs, makes your job of killing people even easier.

The main proof of it, is that the competitive scene is always 12 v 12. Why is it you don't see anything else as competitive? People have to be on comms. That's because comms fascilitate coordination. Otherwise why aren't pro matches just 12 solo drops on each side?

The problem is, the top-level players know what to do to counter jump-snipers, too - but when the chips are down, that's what they go for, because the effectiveness of counterplay is not sufficient. No matter what, the jump sniper has the advantage, even if you keep to ground and try to counter-snipe, his mobility and ability to make assymetric use of cover typically carries the day in a coordinated environment. I know these top teams know and make good use of alternative tactics, such as fast brawlers, or hybrid brawler/sniper teams - I've been on the receiving end in 12man. But when prestige is on the line; when it's go time and they want to win, the most capable players in the game go to jump sniper teams with scout support. Both of the finalists in the last tournament were using almost identical team loadouts.

There's always going to be a few alternatives that are superior - maybe even just one that's really the best way to go. But in the case of MWO none of the other alternatives really seem viable. That's the problem - not the players who use optimized builds. If you don't want to use the best equipment, fine - up to you. I still pull out my brawler Atlas regularly. but it's silly and counterproductive to rail at people who do optimize and claim that they "need a sucker punch," or are somehow taking unfair advantage. It's not like they're using the 'mechs because the word is out that their hitboxes are broken (cough, spiders,cough,) they're just using the weapons they've found to be most effective - and any thinking player will arrive at those same builds sooner or later, barring pure stubbornness. Because there are no near substitutes, and that's what needs fixed.

[MX Duke]

I have clan mates that drive an ecm cidada, with 2 er large lasers. By no means can they poptart. The mech can't even load jump jets. They regularly end drops with over 1000 damage. I've seen one of them be the last mech standing in a match, with five opponents chasing him, and core all five of them to win.

I could drive the same mech with the same exact build and crumble 5 minutes into the match on a regular basis. I just don't mesh with that mech. It's not my thing.

Its not the game, its the player. Don't hate the player, and don't hate the game.

Edited by MX Duke, 05 June 2014 - 12:51 AM.

[MX Duke]

IraqiWalker, on 04 June 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Great post there, mate. I agree with a lot of it.

I honestly think that a lot of problems we are having right now could get mitigated when they add an in-game chat client (I know about C3, but they mentioned working on an integrated one, being part of the game, and allowing everyone to use it.)

Omg, that's just what I need, I get enough of reading the whining on the end match screen. Now you want me to listen to it too!!

[Ursh]

MX Duke, on 05 June 2014 - 12:46 AM, said:

I have clan mates that drive an ecm cidada, with 2 er large lasers. By no means can they poptart. The mech can't even load jump jets. They regularly end drops with over 1000 damage. I've seen one of them be the last mech standing in a match, with five opponents chasing him, and core all five of them to win. I could drive the same mech with the same exact build and crumble 5 minutes into the match on a regular basis. I just don't mesh with that mech. It's not my thing. Its not the game, its the player. Don't hate the player, and don't hate the game.

I don't understand what that has to do with this thread. We can all pull out screenshots of our 700+ damage 4+ kills matches in non-meta mechs. Ever since I renounced Christianity and pledged my soul to the dark lord, I've felt much more at peace with the world.

If you want to duplicate your friends skill, turn your mouse sensitivity and acceleration down really low, and you'll be able to get much more burn time on target at long ranges with lasers. Also, tell your buddies to throw a TAG to go along with those er large lasers for spotting assists.

[StillRadioactive]

Ertur, on 04 June 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

The real 'meta' isn't PPC/AC5/Jumpsniper or whatever else. If you take the top 4 finishers from the tournament and tell them they have to use brawling mechs, they would still win out (at worst one may fall in the quarterfinals).

The real meta's are 1. teamwork and 2. focus fire.

Obviously, therefore, teamwork is OP and must be nerfed.

It's almost as if you didn't read what I wrote.

[Ursh]

StillRadioactive, on 05 June 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

It's almost as if you didn't read what I wrote.

Or if he did, his comprehension was a bit off and he's dismissing three pages of relevant discussion.

The thread isn't about people being great players, it's about there being one tactic that is clearly better than all of the rest...particularly when those top players are competing against each other.

[Deitz]

WarWolfSW, on 05 June 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

For those of you who enjoy this game even with it's faults (whether caused by developers, metas, or standards) I ask you to post your thoughts, give your insight, share your opinions and not allow all those that want to define the standard do so. (And bring hell on the battlefield against those that use it ).

WarWolfSW, that was a very well placed rant and I appreciated it a great deal. I've always seen Mechwarrior Online like the Rubik's Cube. You have very few players that can get all the side the same color, and some that can only get one. Those that can't figure it out, start pulling the little stickers off and placing them where they need them so it looks like they're good? PGI has made a habit of assisting those players, with the new sticker placement, and they rest of us suffer.

I agree with WarWolfSW. There needs to be a place where new players can get help and learn how to beat the meta, but I still think it will be easier for them to complain, than to figure something out and put the work into it.

This game is difficult, and as much as PGI would like everyone to play it, it's never going to be a plug in play game. PGI needs to focus on getting back some of the die hard players, and making people that are happy with the game as it is, happier. Learn how to play Mechwarrior On line, don't ask the dev's to make it easier for you to play. Like I've said before. This is a thinking man's shooter. It's a difficult game to learn to play. If you can't handle Mechwarrior Online? Hawken has endless re-spawns.
.

[CMetz]

Many here have suggested further nerfs to jump jets and sniping. The problem with this is that it will make it harder to use the tactic. When something is made harder lower end players will abandon it, because it will no longer be a worthwhile endeavor. The high end players who possess the most skill will continue to play the tactic, because they have the skill to overcome the nerfs. This is not the intended effect. I do not personally know what the "perfect" solution is. My guess would be for them to turn off convergence completely while a mech is in mid-air. To me, this simulates the impossibility of lining all your weapons up when you are controlling 80 tons of machine and making sure it doesn't crash to the ground. Another member of my unit suggested that delayed convergence be implemented, similar to obtaining an LRM or SSRM lock. once the crosshairs are locked, only then is full convergence achieved. This still enables those with skill to hit where they are aiming, but it should theoretically increase TTK. The only problem that I see is that this also hurts those who use skill to counter jump snipers, as they won't be able to return pinpoint fire. We would have to maintain cover even more, since the jump snipers could use spotters to lock on to targets and enable convergence. Just my $.02 on the topic. And Radio, well stated post. You're promoted back to XO... and we can now forget the whole "Uh, I forgot my ammo during a 2v2 ladder match" incident

[Deitz]

7ynx, on 04 June 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

If PGI would simply make the JJ recharge take 30 seconds then you would still allow jumping w/o the bunny hopping of poptarting.

Mr Pugglesworth said:

If PGI would just do this I can start winning some games, and then I could starting telling everyone how good I am at one of the hardest games online to play.

Please...

It's called a stutter jump, not a bunny hop. Good pop tarters will sometime make it look like their about to do a full jump jet burn, but stop short of totally exposing themselves. When the other pilots alpha strike and the shot goes over their head, they then commit to a full burn bearing their weapons on you and coring you out. Legitimate tactic used by pop tarters, not bunny hopping.

Edited by Deitz, 05 June 2014 - 07:46 AM.