174 replies to this topic

[Deitz]

Adiuvo, on 07 June 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

You're the one coming off as holier than thou in this exchange, btw.

Hopefully we can get back to the subject at hand?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Adiuvo, on 07 June 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

You're the one coming off as holier than thou in this exchange, btw.

Both sides are trying to - so why don't we let it be before the mods get upset at everyone involved

[Deitz]

Like I said, hopefully we can get back to the subject at hand.

[Nikkoru]

Deitz, on 05 June 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Ever heard of "Advance Target Decay?" Do you know what a "TAG" does, or how to use it?

if you can't learn the basics and keep your missile boat out of trouble I can't help you. Best of luck to you. Keep crying and whining to PGI... that tactic seems to be working, and the only one working for you.

Deitz, on 07 June 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

you can't run around saying I belittled you.

Riiiiiiiight

Here is your award for hypocrit of the year.

Enjoy it.

[Deitz]

Adiuvo, did I talk to you today in the RHOD chat? Name looks very familiar? If that was you how does the RHOD league feel about the up coming JJ nerf, and pop tarting meta?

[Deitz]

Nikkoru, I've had my missile boat ran over as well. It happens to the best of. The difference for ME is I evaluate my positioning as a BAD move. It happens to all of us. Sometime we don't have the data on the battlefield we need, or just out right make the wrong call. It happens. The difference for ME is I don't go heading to the forums or fill out a support ticket saying the game is broke. I personally feel that blame is on ME, and I need to learn from it and do MY best not to find myself in that situation again. If you are having a hard time with it? I cannot help you, and it is something you will have to go out and learn on your own just as I did. I don't think the game is broken, much like the rest of the people involved in this topic.

[Adiuvo]

Deitz, on 07 June 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Adiuvo, did I talk to you today in the RHOD chat? Name looks very familiar? If that was you how does the RHOD league feel about the up coming JJ nerf, and pop tarting meta?

Actually yeah, I answered the question about signups.

I don't speak for RHoD itself (I'm part of House of Lords) but most of the comp scene feels that the current meta is primarily as result of JJs being overpowered. A Banshee running the same loadouts is not particularly scary, for example. As such any nerfs aiming to target 'poptarting' need to hit them specifically. Ideas tossed around primarily revolve around reducing jump DPS, either through heat, JJ recharge, or JJ scaling. I haven't really heard of fall damage being tossed around as an idea, but personally I do think it will work somewhat well. At the very least, it will increase the skill floor of poptarting. The good pilots have already been making as shallow of jumps as possible due to the desire to expose a tiny amount of the mech so not much is going to change from them I think. Then again I'm a primarily a light pilot and JagerXII has already expressed some disappointment with the changes so who knows.

[Deitz]

And the other thing. I've been playing this game since June of last year. To be honest this game is so complex that I'm still learning little tips and tricks, and realizing what I thought I knew about some thing wasn't true. I've been playing this game and this game only since June.

I'm not here to help a new player that's been playing since December. I'm here to have an intelligent debate about jump sniping. Just because you haven't learned how to counter the current meta doesn't mean the game is broken.

To be perfectly honest, I've had teams run over a 4 man missile boat team, with spotters and support. They didn't beat us because the setup they were running was far superior than ours. They beat us because they were the better players. Bottom line, end of fact. Now if they were lesser players than us, we would have beaten them. That's why players compete. We don't just show up to get our heads kicked in, but if we want to be better, than we need to expose ourselves to better players. Evaluate ourselves and grow.

[Alaskan Nobody]

[Modo44]

Real JJ heat and fall damage mean worse cooling and another ton for JJs to have fuel for safe landings. Given how Gauss was already back, this sounds like goodbye to the ERPPC, but not much more. (If the heat is too much for a Gauss-based jump-sniper, it will be even worse for any other setup, including not specifically poptarts.) If Clan mechs are anywhere near as easy to cool, the JJ changes will be a non-nerf. Except for the Highlander, because **** that barn.

Edited by Modo44, 07 June 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Void Angel]

Jump sniping is not the meta. Jump sniping with long-range, pinpoint-damage weapons using mobile platforms is the meta. Do not be confused when people talk about "poptarts" being overpowered - jump jets are simply the most visible part of the arrangement. The mobility and pinpoint damage are also major components; this is why you don't see Highlanders much any more.

Lrms, as I explained a bit earlier, do not counter this setup. The fact is that any cover that's tall enough to provide defilade from incoming LRMs can be used to strike with impunity of the attacking platform is at all familiar with how LRMs function. I've been 200m from a Quickdraw who caught me on the flank with a rock between us - nothing behind him but the lake on Crimson Strait - and was almost completely helpless to hit him with my LRMs. Sure, I could try to hit him with dumb-fired salvos, but he simply shrugged off the spread damage and kept hammering me. I could hit him with my backup lasers but that required me to stare at him and trade blows - in the end, the damage diferential was so severe that I had to accept even more unanswered damage in order to run from a 'mech I outweighed by 20 tons.

And this was at close range, where he had the minimum time to react to my missiles' flight. At 300m or higher, where the indirect-fire flight profile kicks in, he'd have even longer - and a 'mech jumping over the top of a piece of cover is often impossible to target with dumbfired weapons.

Shar Wolf, on 07 June 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Ahahahahahahah!!!!

[Deitz]

Adiuvo, on 07 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

JagerXII has already expressed some disappointment with the changes so who knows.

I hear you there and I would pay attention to what JagerXII says. He's a good pilot. I do think your comparison to a Dragon Slayer for a Banshee is a little out there?

Dragon Slayer
Engine rating:325
Torso Yaw108°Arm Yaw20°Torso Pitch20°Arm Pitch30°Torso Yaw Speed65°/sArm Yaw Speed164°/sTorso Pitch Speed36°/sArm Pitch Speed164°/s

Banshee

Engine rating:325
Torso Yaw108°Arm Yaw20°Torso Pitch20°Arm Pitch30°Torso Yaw Speed68°/sArm Yaw Speed153°/sTorso Pitch Speed38°/sArm Pitch Speed153°/s

If you can fit a larger engine in that Banshee you might get the same performance as a Dragon Slayer? Movement is also a key factor there as well, but I feel just the weapons layout give the pop tarter the edge, not just the JJ's, and the skill of the pilot. Just my opinion.

Shar Wolf, on 07 June 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

LOVE IT

[Mizore]

StillRadioactive, on 04 June 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

On the third try, they finally got it right. They went after the one thing that fueled Arcbound Ravager more than anything else... the artifact lands that kept it fed with fresh, zero-cost +1/+1 counters. This third ban, approximately four months after the playerbase became acutely aware of Ravager's devastating effects on the metagame, was decried as too slow. WotC must have been asleep at the wheel, players said, and people left the game by the thousands.

Well, exactly this is the reason why there are only few players left... MWO would have had a much larger p(l)ayerbase if they had fixed balance issues much earlier.
People were crying for months until PGI finally was willing to do something and actually recognised a problem.
PGI didn't do this once, they did this several times and annoyed thousands of players over and over again, so that even hard core battletech fans stopped playing.

Now they somehow start to do something against this jumpsniper meta, they fix SRMs, and so on... I guess they finally lost so many players that it became inevitable to fix their mess, they've created in the past.
But maybe it's too late and too many people already have been annoyed too much.

[Modo44]

Deitz, on 07 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

If you can fit a larger engine in that Banshee you might get the same performance as a Dragon Slayer?

No. You will get the same performance you can get from a big engine Atlas. Which is to say, a fast jump-sniper will eat it alive by repositioning every time you think you have a shot. A really big standard engine will bring you into lore Banshee territory -- puny weapons. A really big XL will bring you into XL Atlas territory -- laughably easy to kill for 95 tons.

[Deitz]

Mizore, on 07 June 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Well, exactly this is the reason why there are only few players left... MWO would have had a much larger p(l)ayerbase if they had fixed balance issues much earlier.
People were crying for months until PGI finally was willing to do something and actually recognised a problem.
PGI didn't do this once, they did this several times and annoyed thousands of players over and over again, so that even hard core battletech fans stopped playing.

Now they somehow start to do something against this jumpsniper meta, they fix SRMs, and so on... I guess they finally lost so many players that it became inevitable to fix their mess, they've created in the past.
But maybe it's too late and too many people already have been annoyed too much.

I agree with you to a point. The game needs adjustment for sure on so many levels it isn't funny, but to target a specific build is a little out there. Losing the jump sniper will completely change the competitive scene for sure, and make it easier for others to compete, but that's my point. PGI need things like LRM buffs, and SRM fixes to give other players the option to find something they can be equally as good at. Having the ability to change your own game to counter that of others is exactly what this game needs. PGI keeps on nerfing things. Stop nerfing, start buffing! Give the players options and lets see what comes of it.

Modo44, on 07 June 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

No. You will get the same performance you can get from a big engine Atlas. Which is to say, a fast jump-sniper will eat it alive by repositioning every time you think you have a shot. A really big standard engine will bring you into lore Banshee territory -- puny weapons. A really big XL will bring you into XL Atlas territory -- laughably easy to kill for 95 tons.

I agree Sir. My question was really base on the how?

[Modo44]

Deitz, on 07 June 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

I agree Sir. My question was really base on the how?

My answer is in the "same performance you can get from an Atlas" part. That thing can take heavy arm weapons with good reach -- similar to the Victor -- but it can not use them as well because it can not jump nor move as fast with a sensible build (not XL-friendly). For a truly sad comparison, consider the ballistic Battlemaster variants.

As to the nerfs, the ideas floated have the goal of bringing JJ-enabled mechs more in line with other variants, not killing jump-sniping specifically nor entirely. Since JJs are literally the only differentiator, that is where you nerf. Conversely, buffing everything that can not jump was also suggested (e.g. Jager's idea of increasing the internal structure on ground-bound mechs).

Edited by Modo44, 07 June 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Moomtazz]

I just started playing again after quitting some time last summer. I had already pre-ordered Phoenix package but I was still too bored to log in and check out my mechs until 5 days ago. I am astounded at how little the game has changed in a year. I have only been solo dropping so poptarting has not been an issue as much as LRM boats. There are tons of them out there and with random drop compositions you may have no defense one match and 5 ECM mechs the next.

I find it funny though that in a year poptarting is still the king of competitive play. People were bitching about it then and they still are today.

The game just feels like it should be a component of a much bigger game. Something like Plaetside but with mechs. Instead it is just counterstrike 3050, except in CS you could solo in pug servers and go 10:1 KD. Solo pugging in MWO I'd think a 2:1 KD is pretty good.

[Deitz]

Modo44, on 07 June 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

My answer is in the "same performance you can get from an Atlas" part. That thing can take heavy arm weapons with good reach -- similar to the Victor -- but it can not use them as well because it can not jump nor move as fast with a sensible build (not XL-friendly). For a truly sad comparison, consider the ballistic Battlemaster variants.

As to the nerfs, the ideas floated have the goal of bringing JJ-enabled mechs more in line with other variants, not killing jump-sniping specifically nor entirely. Since JJs are literally the only differentiator, that is where you nerf. Conversely, buffing everything that can not jump was also suggested (e.g. Jager's idea of increasing the internal structure on ground-bound mechs).

I think I'm talking about the physics of the mechs. Torso/arm twist/speed is all in the same average range. What separates the feel of the mech is it's size. And the Dragon Slayer is smaller than the Atlas or Banshee. So even though the speed is the same, it still takes longer to turn because the torso or CT is larger. Same thing with lights. They feel faster because of the mechanics, or the physics of movement. No way a Banshee or Atlas could ever move or feel like the Dragon Slayer, or perform the same with the same weapons layout.

Edited by Deitz, 07 June 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Void Angel, on 07 June 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Jump sniping is not the meta. Jump sniping with long-range, pinpoint-damage weapons using mobile platforms is the meta. Do not be confused when people talk about "poptarts" being overpowered - jump jets are simply the most visible part of the arrangement. The mobility and pinpoint damage are also major components; this is why you don't see Highlanders much any more.

Lrms, as I explained a bit earlier, do not counter this setup. The fact is that any cover that's tall enough to provide defilade from incoming LRMs can be used to strike with impunity of the attacking platform is at all familiar with how LRMs function. I've been 200m from a Quickdraw who caught me on the flank with a rock between us - nothing behind him but the lake on Crimson Strait - and was almost completely helpless to hit him with my LRMs. Sure, I could try to hit him with dumb-fired salvos, but he simply shrugged off the spread damage and kept hammering me. I could hit him with my backup lasers but that required me to stare at him and trade blows - in the end, the damage diferential was so severe that I had to accept even more unanswered damage in order to run from a 'mech I outweighed by 20 tons.

And this was at close range, where he had the minimum time to react to my missiles' flight. At 300m or higher, where the indirect-fire flight profile kicks in, he'd have even longer - and a 'mech jumping over the top of a piece of cover is often impossible to target with dumbfired weapons.

Cover of this sort is rare throughout a map and generally consists of a single rock or a single building. This isn't enough to cover a team and this is the reason why LRMs are the counter to jump snipers.

Sniping itself also requires pinpoint weapons, so I'm not sure why you had to put in the qualifiers...

Deitz, on 07 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

I think I'm talking about the physics of the mechs. Torso/arm twist/speed is all in the same average range. What separates the feel of the mech is it's size. And the Dragon Slayer is smaller than the Atlas or Banshee. So even though the speed is the same, it still takes longer to turn because the torso or CT is larger. Same thing with lights. They feel faster because of the mechanics, or the physics of movement. No way a Banshee or Atlas could ever move or feel like the Dragon Slayer, or perform the same with the same weapons layout.

JJs increase turn rate. Model plays a part and it's some of the reason why the Dragon Slayer is better (XL safe) but the issue, primarily, is JJs.

Edited by Adiuvo, 07 June 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Deitz, on 07 June 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

I hear you there and I would pay attention to what JagerXII says. He's a good pilot. I do think your comparison to a Dragon Slayer for a Banshee is a little out there?

Dragon Slayer
Engine rating:325
Torso Yaw108°Arm Yaw20°Torso Pitch20°Arm Pitch30°Torso Yaw Speed65°/sArm Yaw Speed164°/sTorso Pitch Speed36°/sArm Pitch Speed164°/s

Banshee

Engine rating:325
Torso Yaw108°Arm Yaw20°Torso Pitch20°Arm Pitch30°Torso Yaw Speed68°/sArm Yaw Speed153°/sTorso Pitch Speed38°/sArm Pitch Speed153°/s

If you can fit a larger engine in that Banshee you might get the same performance as a Dragon Slayer? Movement is also a key factor there as well, but I feel just the weapons layout give the pop tarter the edge, not just the JJ's, and the skill of the pilot. Just my opinion

Yep, Jager is a good pilot. I play with him often on stream and we're a team for Hann Solo's 2v2 league.

The point of the Banshee vs. Dragon Slayer comparison was to illustrate a ground based PPC/AC5 mech vs. a JJ one. Any mech can fit really. An Atlas, or a Dragon Slayer without JJs. Point is that the JJs are what tip these things into overpowered.

Movement profiles between them are relatively the same but adding in a third dimension of movement gives the DS the edge, especially due to the hill climb system that was put in. Where other assaults would get stuck on the terrain the Dragon Slayer (and all JJ equipped mechs) is able to get through. This is mostly independent of engine as the speeds necessary to climb over rough terrain are unrealistic to obtain without massively sacrificing loadout.

The only special thing about a DS' weapon loadout is that its asymmetrical, but many mechs can be configured asymmetrically. Otherwise it kind of has the short end of the stick with its energy hardpoints, which are low on the chassis in comparison to a Highlander or Cataphract.

Edited by Adiuvo, 07 June 2014 - 01:31 PM.