174 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

I have to differ; consider River City, River City Night, Frozen City, Frozen City Night, Tourmaline Desert, Canyon Network, and the HPG manifold - not to Mention Crimson Strait. There are long avenues of fire in all of those locations, but they are all bounded by either the border of the map or significant cover objects. Then there are maps like Terra Therma which consist entirely of large areas of LRM-blocking cover with long, open valleys between them; heck, even LRM Heaven Caustic Valley has opportunities to move sideways, even though broken locks slide down the slope

There is more than enough cover to support a team - they may not all be able to avoid damage, but they will all be able to achieve a positive balance of time-to-kill.

As for sniping, it actually requires long-range weapons by definition, not pinpoint - I refer you to the ER Laserchicken Raven builds. Additionally, some players will consider an AC20/ PPC combo to be 'meta' as well, so I defined my terms for clarity. Many people are not carefuol readers, and might not be sure what I had meant.

[IraqiWalker]

Moomtazz, on 07 June 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

I just started playing again after quitting some time last summer. I had already pre-ordered Phoenix package but I was still too bored to log in and check out my mechs until 5 days ago. I am astounded at how little the game has changed in a year. I have only been solo dropping so poptarting has not been an issue as much as LRM boats. There are tons of them out there and with random drop compositions you may have no defense one match and 5 ECM mechs the next.

I find it funny though that in a year poptarting is still the king of competitive play. People were bitching about it then and they still are today.

The game just feels like it should be a component of a much bigger game. Something like Plaetside but with mechs. Instead it is just counterstrike 3050, except in CS you could solo in pug servers and go 10:1 KD. Solo pugging in MWO I'd think a 2:1 KD is pretty good.

CW should be here before the end of this year I think. They are aiming for September I think ? Someone correct me on this one.

[Deitz]

Void Angel, on 07 June 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Additionally, some players will consider an AC20/ PPC combo to be 'meta' as well, so I defined my terms for clarity. Many people are not carefuol readers, and might not be sure what I had meant.

Why? @ 600 meters with 2 AC5's and 2 PPC's you have a solid 30 damage alpha with a DPS of 4.41
@ 600 meters with 1 AC20 and 2 PPC's you have a solid 20 damage alpha with a DPS of 2.55

AC20 has a horrible drop rate for damage and falls off target as well. AC20 is a short range clubber at best, not long range pin point? I don't think anyone that jump snipes would even think about throwing a AC20 in the mix. It's a good setup if you have a plan, but that would cut your jump snipe game in half. Just because you have jump jets and a few PPC's doesn't make you meta. Just saying?

[JimEvolved]

Adiuvo, on 07 June 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

In non-12man games LRMs counter jumpsnipers, hard.

I have really only been following the 12 v 12 tournaments. How much real data (not anecdote) do we have for < 12v12 that LRM-based teams beat poptarters of equivalent skill?

[Void Angel]

Deitz, on 07 June 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Why? @ 600 meters with 2 AC5's and 2 PPC's you have a solid 30 damage alpha with a DPS of 4.41
@ 600 meters with 1 AC20 and 2 PPC's you have a solid 20 damage alpha with a DPS of 2.55

AC20 has a horrible drop rate for damage and falls off target as well. AC20 is a short range clubber at best, not long range pin point? I don't think anyone that jump snipes would even think about throwing a AC20 in the mix. It's a good setup if you have a plan, but that would cut your jump snipe game in half. Just because you have jump jets and a few PPC's doesn't make you meta. Just saying?

Void Angel, on 07 June 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Many people are not carefuol readers, and might not be sure what I had meant.

[Adiuvo]

JimEvolved, on 07 June 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

I have really only been following the 12 v 12 tournaments. How much real data (not anecdote) do we have for < 12v12 that LRM-based teams beat poptarters of equivalent skill?

In actual 12 man teams? They don't. Teamwork beats LRM boats and unless you're brand new your 12man group will have teamwork.

In casual play it's a matter of trading. A jumpsniper can beat everything in the game trade wise, except LRM boats. For this just look at the average alpha of a LRM boat, and the fact that you can't fight back due to the screen shake and being reliant on aimed weapons.

[JimEvolved]

Adiuvo, on 07 June 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

In actual 12 man teams? They don't. Teamwork beats LRM boats and unless you're brand new your 12man group will have teamwork.

In casual play it's a matter of trading. A jumpsniper can beat everything in the game trade wise, except LRM boats. For this just look at the average alpha of a LRM boat, and the fact that you can't fight back due to the screen shake and being reliant on aimed weapons.

Sorry, but until we have real data from current competitive tournament play between 10v10, 8v8, 4v4, 2v2 or 1v1, everything else to me is anecdote. Look at how hard certain people in this thread insisted that LRMs counter poptarting . . . until you look at the actual data from the last 12v12 tournament. Now it's oh . . . LRMs *totally* counter poptarting in *everything but* 12 v 12. Oh, really? According to what data? Because all I see is moving goalposts in the face of data.

Now if you said here look at this very popular 4v4 ladder and look they list the mech lineups for the top 10 teams and the top 5 teams all run very different loadouts or they all run balanced loadouts or they all run Locusts or whatever . . . that's data. Maybe data not terribly relevant to what most people are playing but exponentially superior to bald assertions backed by only anecdotes and hearsay. You said you run in Hann Solo's 2v2? What are the top teams in the ladder running? And is that something that is *disclosed*, like we could all see the recordings of the 12v12 tournaments and all the drop lineups were shown at the end, or something more like "I just think based on my play in the ladder that X is what the best teams are running."

Because of course everyone has an opinion. At this point, and given the excellent pedigree of many of the people still participating in this thread, shouldn't we be working with opinions based on data? I get that there's not hard data available for everything, but at least acknowledge that if you don't have data to back you up that all you are stating is an opinion.

Edited by JimEvolved, 07 June 2014 - 05:28 PM.

[Adiuvo]

JimEvolved, on 07 June 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Sorry, but until we have real data from current competitive tournament play between 10v10, 8v8, 4v4, 2v2 or 1v1, everything else to me is anecdote. Look at how hard certain people in this thread insisted that LRMs counter poptarting . . . until you look at the actual data from the last 12v12 tournament.

And let's face it, the *overwhelming majority* of play right now is 12v12. So looking at 4v4 or 2v2 data might be interesting, but will not be relevant to most people at this time. So the most relevant meta to talk about is the 12v12 meta.

But if you said here look at this very popular 4v4 ladder and look they list the mech lineups for the top 10 teams and the top 5 teams all run very different loadouts or they all run balanced loadouts or they all run Locusts or whatever . . . that's data. Maybe data not terribly relevant to what most people are playing but exponentially superior to bald assertions backed by only anecdotes and hearsay. You said you run in Hann Solo's 2v2? What are the top teams in the ladder running? And is that something that is *disclosed*, like we could all see the recordings of the 12v12 tournaments and all the drop lineups were shown at the end, or something more like "I just think based on my play in the ladder that X is what the best teams are running."

Because of course everyone has an opinion. At this point, and given the excellent pedigree of many of the people still participating in this thread, shouldn't we be working with opinions based on data? I get that there's not hard data available for everything, but at least acknowledge that if you don't have data to back you up that all you are stating is an opinion.

Since credentials matter to you...

Hi, I'm Adiuvo. I'm a starter light pilot for House of Lords. I'm generally considered as one of the best light pilots in the game. My team, in which I have participated in every single competitive match, is currently undefeated and has recently won the PGI First Engagement tournament, coming in first place over Steel Jaguar Gaming. Nice to meet ya.

When I talked about 12man play I was talking about *actual* competitive play. With actual 12mans. Like, 12 people all on teamspeak vs. another 12 people all on teamspeak. LRMs will do nothing in these environments, since you easily have the ability to coordinate pushes and kill them accordingly.

Pug games (casuals) are not like this. Even if you're in a jumpsniper you will have little ability to really work with your team, much less coordinate pushes. Ideally everyone is on the ball but typically they are not. People will sit back, try to outtrade with LRM boats, and lose.

What I'm saying here is anecdotal only if you consider it possible to get something better. Since I'm talking about pug play here, there really isn't anything better to grab besides opinions. I like to think that my opinion is worth a little bit more than your average fellow when it comes to MWO, but nevertheless I'm giving reasoning behind my points as to contribute to the discussion. So far it seems like you're just hung up on having 'hard' data, even when your hard data comes directly from my efforts.

[CMetz]

It still amazes me when people want to complain about the meta or the current state of the competitive game when they don't even recognize a top 20 pilot from HoL or SJR. As a player in the elo bracket just below the top players I find it quite important to know when a priority target is on the other team or when a competent teammate is on mine.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Along the lines of what Adiuvo said, pug games are also very different between lower elo brackets and higher elo brackets. If you want proof, find a new player to group up with for a couple of drops, so that your group elo is lowered to the level of a newborn giraffe (one who's still learning to stand on four legs).

Then try grouping up with Adiuvo for a couple of drops.

A lot of the exchanges here literally go over each others' heads since some do not know what the others have to put up with. Please keep this in mind, stay classy, and do with less belittling each other. There is a lot of really good content on this thread, I hate to see it get polluted by poor quality posts.

[StillRadioactive]

Adiuvo, on 07 June 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

#wreckt

Yeah. I'm with CMetz here. I know I'm not one of the top 1% of the game, but I'm definitely in that top 5% because I keep seeing the 1%ers like Adiuvo on the opposite team.

I'm on the 1v1 and 2v2 ladders run by Hann_Solo. My record is about 50/50, which is good enough to keep me right at the bottom. But do you know what I do?

I learn the names of the guys on the ladders.

I learn the names of the guys in the official tourneys.

I do my best to learn the names of the guys in the top-tier teams.

Why do I do this? It's because I need to know, when I press R and see the pilot's name, if they're gonna break my face or not. That's a major piece of tactical information.

EDIT: Even if I didn't know the name Adiuvo, I'd think the giant House of Lords logo in his sig is a dead give-away that he's one of those pilots who would break my face.

Edited by StillRadioactive, 07 June 2014 - 06:19 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

StillRadioactive, on 07 June 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

Why do I do this? It's because I need to know, when I press R and see the pilot's name, if they're gonna break my face or not. That's a major piece of tactical information.

Possibly the most important reason to know another person's name.

[Modo44]

If anyone had any doubt about why player Elo values should be public, consider the above an illustration.

[Lily from animove]

StillRadioactive, on 04 June 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

I wonder why they not simply banned said Ravager, but maybe admitting they made somethign new wrong was too hard? or was the ravager such a Money Hors that they didn't wanted to drop it?

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 June 2014 - 11:55 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Haven't checked in on the MTG lately, so thanks for the news, but ...

StillRadioactive, on 04 June 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

but when you get to unrestricted 12v12 (the only OFFICIALLY supported competitive format), there's only one option.

You either fill the team with jump-snipers, or you die quickly.

That is simply not true. Brawler DDCs and SHDs with AC20s are just as much 'meta' in 12-mans. On a close range maps (Forest Colony, River City etc.), a well planned push with such mechs tears jumpsnipers into pieces within seconds.

Jumpsniper 'meta' is born and fed by PUGs who only use one strategy, sit behind cover and let teammtes go first and die. In your example with mr.Pugglesworth I can only ask one thing ... what were the other 11 people from his team doing while he was being shot? Did they charge the enemy? Don't think so.

[RapidFire7]

I got a question for you all, even though it is a bit off-topic.

I'm currently running a semi-meta build on my Dragon Slayer - XL 345, 2 PPC, AC/10 and 2 Streaks. I am not a competitive player (even though I would really like to be) but I'm one of those people that likes to tinker around in the Mechbay for ages just to play a couple of matches and see what works and what doesn't... perhaps "likes" is the wrong word?

(That's not the question I was talking about btw)

Here's the question: With the max range nerfs on the AC's (down to 2x from 3x for most for those that didn't read last week's patch notes and/or haven't noticed already (probably no such people on this topic lol)), is it worth saving the extra tonnage by having the AC/10 (instead of 2 AC/5's) while sacrificing range for an alpha strike?

TL:DR

I'm a weirdo that swapped out 2 AC/5s for an AC/10 in PUG play. Yes or no?

[IraqiWalker]

Lily from animove, on 09 June 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

I wonder why they not simply banned said Ravager, but maybe admitting they made somethign new wrong was too hard? or was the ravager such a Money Hors that they didn't wanted to drop it?

I think they didn't want to destroy the play style, just curb it. Although, recently they unbanned Emrakul, to ban a different card. Yes, they unbanned this monstrosity:
http://gatherer.wiza...iverseid=193452

RFMG567, on 10 June 2014 - 12:32 AM, said:

I got a question for you all, even though it is a bit off-topic.

I'm currently running a semi-meta build on my Dragon Slayer - XL 345, 2 PPC, AC/10 and 2 Streaks. I am not a competitive player (even though I would really like to be) but I'm one of those people that likes to tinker around in the Mechbay for ages just to play a couple of matches and see what works and what doesn't... perhaps "likes" is the wrong word?

(That's not the question I was talking about btw)

Here's the question: With the max range nerfs on the AC's (down to 2x from 3x for most for those that didn't read last week's patch notes and/or haven't noticed already (probably no such people on this topic lol)), is it worth saving the extra tonnage by having the AC/10 (instead of 2 AC/5's) while sacrificing range for an alpha strike?

TL:DR

I'm a weirdo that swapped out 2 AC/5s for an AC/10 in PUG play. Yes or no?

The reason people use AC5s with PPCs is because of projectile speed. I honestly think sticking with the AC 10 is a good choice. However, it all depends on your style. Are you poptarting? Or are you skirmishing, or possibly brawling?

If you answer that question we can all give you a much better answer.

[Tim East]

StillRadioactive, on 04 June 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

Then you have that last 5%. The crazy ones, the deckbuilders who are always trying to come up with something new. Their "rogue" builds account for less than 1% of tournament wins, but they're what keep the metagame fresh between set releases. A rogue deck does well in a tournament, its card list ends up online, people copy it and it becomes one of the top tier decks, shuffling those that it beats to lower tiers (or completely off of the competitive scene).

This is what I lived for back when I played MTG. Antique decks not used anymore mixed with new things to make bizarre con-troll decks that annoyed people into quitting. Winter orb, anyone? Meta builds bored me then and bore me now. Hence the trollmando thing I do and the new Locust using "suboptimal small pulse lasers" bit I'm getting to know. Though I guess my streak ecm commando is apparently fairly meta. Might have to try a flamer boat Nova or something when they come out. That'd be funny, right? We really need the Fire Moth though.

Edited by Tim East, 10 June 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Tim East, on 10 June 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

This is what I lived for back when I played MTG. Antique decks not used anymore mixed with new things to make bizarre con-troll decks that annoyed people into quitting. Winter orb, anyone? Meta builds bored me then and bore me now. Hence the trollmando thing I do and the new Locust using "suboptimal small pulse lasers" bit I'm getting to know. Though I guess my streak ecm commando is apparently fairly meta. Might have to try a flamer boat Nova or something when they come out. That'd be funny, right? We really need the Fire Moth though.

Your prayers were answered

Lily from animove, on 10 June 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

[NOVA-PRIME]: 13xCFLMR, 2xCMG, Clan XL250, DHS

[PhoenixFire55]

RFMG567, on 10 June 2014 - 12:32 AM, said:

I'm a weirdo that swapped out 2 AC/5s for an AC/10 in PUG play. Yes or no?

You should use what you like best not what people tell you is best. I prefer Gauss, the guy next to me likes an AC20. Both have their own pros and cons. I shoot fairly well with AC5s and AC10s and utterly horrible with 2s and 20s. Of course I'd use 5s or a 10. You? Depends on how good you feel your weapons and what you want to do with them in terms of range of engagement and playstyle.