127 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Kyle Wright, on 04 June 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

If they do do these heat scales, and there are chances of overheating and cooking ammo off more frequent, We could see more drawn out fights, that allow for closer engagements with more heat efficient weapons. Aside from Poptarts getting hot, I know from experience LRM boats have a tendency to run their heat up super high close to shutdown. With all that ammo should be a chance to cook off when the heat scale spikes up into the danger zone. Could mean more balanced builds, but who knows what goes on in the microcosm know as PGI.

Actually, ammo explosions via heat are the death of balanced builds. It basically means that players will either use all ballistics to avoid getting hot in the first place, or all energy so that they don't die instantly when they do get hot.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Eddrick, on 04 June 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I hope they go that rought, too. However, people seem to misunderstand, that Heat Scale doesn't kick in till after you generate more Heat then what your Heat Sinks can handle. It happens at the end of the Turn in TT. I can generate 45 Heat with 19 MWO DHS, with Elite Efficiencies, before that Heat Scale kicks in.

But given that our heat generates real time in this game, it would make sense that we see the effects as we generate them.

Starting at that 5 heat, -1 speed? That could translate into at 20% heat, we suffer 10% slower rotation and acceleration speeds on our mech.

the accuracy modifiers? Those could be represented by, at 40% heat, we suffer a 20% increase to our CoF bloom on the weapons, making them harder to aim and pin point. The effects would then begin to stack on as we generated more heat.

By 40% heat we would be suffering the 20% CoF bloom, 10% speed and rotation hit and if we keep going and reach like 60% heat, we then notice our radar beginning to falter, become hazy and slow to pick up stuff. Also, our lock time and info gather time suffers a 1s delay and target decay becomes half a second faster.

Upon reaching 75% heat, we get all of the above along with a heat exhaustion penalty applied to the pilot, where, as we stay above 75% heat, we notice our entire screen blurring, becoming darker and if we do not cool the mech off, our pilot passes out for a few seconds until the heat reaches back down below like 50%.

adding in these heat penalites would limit pin point, people wouldnt be so apt to wanna JJ and Lolpha strike with those 4 ER PPCs, 2 AC20s and an LRM15 rack....

Fire would be more sporadic, staggered and slow.

[Khobai]

Quote

Starting at that 5 heat, -1 speed? That could translate into at 20% heat, we suffer 10% slower rotation and acceleration speeds on our mech.

Nah that would be silly to have heat penalties start at 20%. That means whenever you fired one or two weapons youd be suffering heat penalties.

The way it should work is youd have a buffer zone. And only when you exceed that buffer do the penalties kick in. Your buffer zone would be based on the number of heatsinks in your mech. So 20 DHS would give you a buffer zone of 40 heat. And only after you exceeded 40 heat would you start to incur heat penalties. So from 41-70 heat would be like 1-30 on the heatscale.

Because in tabletop you get to dissipate heat before checking for heat penalties. So your heatsinks effectively buffer you from penalties in tabletop. So it makes sense for heatsinks to do the same thing in MWO. Essentially the heatscale would remain the same as it is now... but you could no longer ride out the heatscale at like 90% indefinitely without incurring risk of ammo explosion or shut down.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Nah that would be silly to have heat penalties start at 20%. That means whenever you fired one or two weapons youd be suffering heat penalties.

The way it should work is youd have a buffer zone. And only when you exceed that buffer do the penalties kick in. Your buffer zone would be based on the number of heatsinks in your mech. So 20 DHS would give you a buffer zone of 40 heat. And only after you exceeded 40 heat would you start to incur heat penalties. So from 41-70 heat would be like 1-30 on the heatscale.

Because in tabletop you get to dissipate heat before checking for heat penalties. So your heatsinks effectively buffer you from penalties in tabletop. So it makes sense for heatsinks to do the same thing in MWO.

Yeah, but that pretty much negates the need for the heat scale in the first place.....if your smart with your fire you never even see the heat scale penalties....

Slap in 20DHS like the Masakari has....it can fire its 2 ER PPC, gain 30 heat and lose 40 in 1 turn? So in the next turn it can again do the same thing? So essentially, it will never even have to worry about heat. Which is pretty much what we have now in game.

MWO should be, you suffer the penalties, but your heat sinks will dissipate the heat quickly so you wont be under the effects as long. An maybe 20% heat is a bit low, but I was just giving examples of how it could work.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 04 June 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yeah, but that pretty much negates the need for the heat scale in the first place.....if your smart with your fire you never even see the heat scale penalties....

Which is exactly how battletech worked. If you were smart with your fire you NEVER saw the heat scale penalties.

Quote

Slap in 20DHS like the Masakari has....it can fire its 2 ER PPC, gain 30 heat and lose 40 in 1 turn? So in the next turn it can again do the same thing? So essentially, it will never even have to worry about heat. Which is pretty much what we have now in game.

A Masakari that only fires 2 ERPPCs once every 10 seconds is not particularly scary though. I see no reason to punish that with heat penalties.

The heat penalties would kick in when the Masakari tries to fire 4 ERPPCs in less than 10 seconds though. The heatscale isnt meant to punish you for firing weapons at a reasonable pace. Its meant to punish you for firing all your weapons continuously every turn (or in the case of MWO every time your cooldown is up)

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

I really hope they introduce all those TT penalties...would make combat more sustained in the long run. TTK goes up (or down for you, if you can't manange your heat well).

[Eddrick]

Yes, the Battletech Heat Scale punishes all builds. But, the Battletech Heat Scale evens things out a little. Especially, adding the Ammo Explosion part.

Edited by Eddrick, 04 June 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes, the Battletech Heat Scale punishes all builds. But, the Battletech Heat Scale evens things out a little. Especially, adding the Ammo Explosion part.

I dont believe ammo explosions for overheating should really be a thing though. The last thing the game needs is more of a reason to favor PPCs. PPCs are ubiquitous already and found on nearly every competitive mech that can carry them. So theres no reason to discourage players from using something other than PPCs.

[Gizmoh]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

You dont even need heatscale penalties for that.

Theyre adding fall damage to legs. So whenever your legs suffer X amount of fall damage your mech should have to make a piloting check to see if you fall down. That way if you dont cushion your landings with jumpjets you can fall down. Or if a mech falls off a cliff without JJ they can fall down. That makes sense to me.

I already imagined a Commando running off a cliff, and doing a faceplant, right in front of the enemy team.

[Jun Watarase]

PGI doesnt seem to understand that making JJs produce heat will increase poptarting, since using JJs to brawl or advance would be far more dangerous than using JJs to poptart before hiding behind a rock to reduce heat.

Facepalm.

[Khobai]

Quote

PGI doesnt seem to understand that making JJs produce heat will increase poptarting, since using JJs to brawl or advance would be far more dangerous than using JJs to poptart before hiding behind a rock to reduce heat.

Regardless JJs should still generate heat to stay true to tabletop.

However pinpoint damage should be nerfed considerably to bring poptarting under control.

[CDLord HHGD]

Fut, on 04 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

Could be this, could be the penalties, the 30 point cap, or even JJ incurring more heat...

[Eddrick]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

I dont believe ammo explosions for overheating should really be a thing though. The last thing the game needs is more of a reason to favor PPCs. PPCs are ubiquitous already and found on nearly every competitive mech that can carry them. So theres no reason to discourage players from using something other than PPCs.

And Lasers, too. Balistics already have enough going for them. Since, thier ammo almost never explodes. It eliminates one of the tradeoff of using them. On a real time Heat Scale that didn't start after you reached what your Heat Sinks can handle, there would be no reason, not to take Balistics or Missiles. Especialy, if the Ammo explostion part was left out.

All you would ever see is Balistics and Missiles. Because, the Heat Scale punishes Energy Weapons to heavily.

Edited by Eddrick, 04 June 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[Kyle Wright]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

I dont believe ammo explosions for overheating should really be a thing though. The last thing the game needs is more of a reason to favor PPCs. PPCs are ubiquitous already and found on nearly every competitive mech that can carry them. So theres no reason to discourage players from using something other than PPCs.

Well here is an idea to punish lasers and PPCs perhaps, put a heat penalty that has a percentage to seize up the weapons system. Something similiar to how the UAC5 jams, but instead its a mechanical failure whether its caused by wiring getting to hot and frying or moving metal components in the weapons system briefly fusing together.

[Khobai]

Quote

And Lasers, too. Balistics already have enough going for them. Since, thier ammo almost never explodes. It eliminates one of the tradeoff of using them. On a real time Heat Scale that didn't start after you reached what your Heat Sinks can handle, there would be no reason, not to take Balistics or Missiles. Especialy, if the Ammo explostion part was left out.

All you would ever see is Balistics an Missiles. Because, the Heat Scale punishes then to heavily.

I guess it would be okay if you could jettison ammo. Thats my big concern is there no way to jettison the ammo.

[Mcgral18]

Kaldor, on 04 June 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Lets hope they dont...

How will you effectively bring all these modifiers to the table without totally pissing everyone off?

Movement: Doable. -5% speed and acceleration per "movement point"?
Modifier to Fire: How? We dont roll dice. There are no CoF mechanics in game
Shutdown: Pretty much in place allready
Ammo Explosion: Yeah, because ammo explosions are so common anymore...


And yes, I understand they are used when you get above what your heat cap is.

Well, there are at least 4 CoFs in the game. MGs, LB10x, SRMs and when you engage JJs.

They are often regarded as poor mechanics to control the issues.

[Eddrick]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

I guess it would be okay if you could jettison ammo. Thats my big concern is there no way to jettison the ammo.

There should be a way to dump Ammo. I remember seeing in one of the Ask the Devs. That they wanted to give us the ability to dump Ammo.

What if we could do like in Armored Core and be able to drop weapons, too?

Edited by Eddrick, 04 June 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[darkchylde]

Fut, on 04 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

Should of been this way at release - and get rid of ghost heat.

[Dakkaface]

Kaldor, on 04 June 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Modifier to Fire: How? We dont roll dice. There are no CoF mechanics in game

Several ways. Cockpit static blocking visuals, making targeting harder. Introducing a delay between pulling the trigger and firing when heat is high. Slowing down torso twist and elevation speeds at high heat.

[Eddrick]

darkchylde, on 04 June 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Should of been this way at release - and get rid of ghost heat.

Exactly! With the BattleTech Heat Scale. They should be able to get rid of Ghost Heat. There would be little/no reason for it to exist.