127 replies to this topic

[Eddrick]

If anyone is wondering. With the Battletech Heat Scale. A 6 PPC Stalker would be riding 10 on the Heat Scale. Which gives -2 to movment and a modifier to hit penalty.

A 6 PPC Stalker's Heat Sinks can only handle 30 Heat.

A 4 PPC Stalker's Heat Sinks would bring it to a 1 on the Heat Scale. Because, its Heat Sinks can only handle 39 Heat.

Edited by Eddrick, 04 June 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[FupDup]

Eddrick, on 04 June 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

If anyone is wondering. With the Battletech Heat Scale. A 4 PPC Stalker would be riding 10 on the Heat Scale. Which gives -2 to movment and a modifier to hit penalty.

A 4 PPC Stalker's Heat Sinks can only handle 30 Heat.
...

Where did you get those numbers? A typical 4 PPC Stalker would have 20 DHS, which would be enough to dissipate all of the heat from those guns.

[Serpieri]

Fut, on 04 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

Make this happen - and I'll start spending some money on this game.

If you run hot - your movement/speed should be affected - your ability to move your target reticle should be affected - and ammo SHOULD explode.

RISK vs REWARD - we may actually start to see a thinking mans game.

[Eddrick]

FupDup, on 04 June 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Where did you get those numbers? A typical 4 PPC Stalker would have 20 DHS, which would be enough to dissipate all of the heat from those guns.

MWO DHS are not as effective. Even with Elite Efficancies.

You can only get 20 if you drop armor or go without Endo Steel Internal Structure. Smurfy Stats for 4 PPC Stalker with 20 MWO DHS: 39 Dissipation and 77 Heat Cap. They would have to take the Heat Cap bonus off of the origenal 30. I'm counting Dissipation over 10 seconds only, for that reason.

I screwed up on the earlyer post. It was for a 6 PPC Stalker. A 4 PPC Stalker would still break what it can handle.

Edited by Eddrick, 04 June 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Serpieri, on 04 June 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

RISK vs REWARD - we may actually start to see a thinking mans game.

Judging by many of the post and spelling people have in these forums....the game may become too easy then

[Hellcat420]

Eddrick, on 04 June 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I hope they go that rought, too. However, people seem to misunderstand, that Heat Scale doesn't kick in till after you generate more Heat then what your Heat Sinks can handle. It happens at the end of the Turn in TT. I can generate 37.5 (45 if you count Heat Cap boost) Heat with 19 MWO DHS, with Elite Efficiencies, before that Heat Scale kicks in.

its like that in tabletop to account for the heat your heatsinks dissapate during your turn(which is 10 seconds). heatsinks dissapate 1 point of heat each every 10 seconds (or every turn, which ever way you want to say it)

[Pjwned]

Sounds kind of interesting but I'm just wondering how bad PGI will screw it up.

[FupDup]

Pjwned, on 04 June 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Sounds kind of interesting but I'm just wondering how bad PGI will screw it up.

The answer is "extremely bad."

[Rhent]

Fut, on 04 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

I did the math for this system, its not good IF they ignore the 10 second rule for refiring, which they will. You can fire 2 PPC's and 3 AC5's almost indefinitely IF they went with a true TT heat system, again ignoring 10 seconds to refire.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I'm hoping at a minimum they implement some kind of dynamic precision reduction based on heat %. If they can manage to tie in move penalties (as a % of max speed) based on high heat as well, that's even better, but the DPR is what this game needs more than anything (and it should also be based on throttle % and stability state).

[Targetloc]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Nah that would be silly to have heat penalties start at 20%. That means whenever you fired one or two weapons youd be suffering heat penalties.

The way it should work is youd have a buffer zone. And only when you exceed that buffer do the penalties kick in. Your buffer zone would be based on the number of heatsinks in your mech. So 20 DHS would give you a buffer zone of 40 heat. And only after you exceeded 40 heat would you start to incur heat penalties. So from 41-70 heat would be like 1-30 on the heatscale.

Because in tabletop you get to dissipate heat before checking for heat penalties. So your heatsinks effectively buffer you from penalties in tabletop. So it makes sense for heatsinks to do the same thing in MWO. Essentially the heatscale would remain the same as it is now... but you could no longer ride out the heatscale at like 90% indefinitely without incurring risk of ammo explosion or shut down.

TT also assumes that the shots are spread out over 10 seconds, not fired all in the same instant.

In a real-time game there needs to be a buffer before heat penalties kick in, but it needs to be the same for all mechs (aside from chassis specific quirks which could also add some new depth!). Making your HS count increase the buffer leads to double-dipping.

A mech with 20 HS would be able to fire twice as often as a mech with 10 HS, but they'd both have the same heat ceiling for their max alpha strike before penalties kick in. That actually leads to lower FLD, which would be a huge improvement in the game and would diversify builds a bit more.

Increasing both the capacity and the dissipation speed leads to the age old game balance problem of rates * fixed values. Like how 20% damage reduction also increases the value of each additional armor point by 1.25. The value of each additional heatsink increases in a non-linear way and also inversely affects the TTK and allows you to quickly kill targets without having to ever worry about heat management.

Edited by Targetloc, 04 June 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[Koniving]

Rhent, on 04 June 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

I did the math for this system, its not good IF they ignore the 10 second rule for refiring, which they will. You can fire 2 PPC's and 3 AC5's almost indefinitely IF they went with a true TT heat system, again ignoring 10 seconds to refire.

Not true. See this post as written below where it's broken down into real time. Yes, 3 AC/5s could be; but 3 AC/5s are supposed to be burst fire if you combine TT and lore. That's the crucial part. But 2 PPCs indefinitely? Not at all. You'd barely be able to do it twice in 6 seconds if you fired them both at once both times.

Keep in mind 30 threshold, not MWO's 40 to 86.56 threshold before maps. (It'll be over 100 with clan mechs).

Eddrick, on 04 June 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I hope they go that rought, too. However, people seem to misunderstand, that Heat Scale doesn't kick in till after you generate more Heat then what your Heat Sinks can handle. It happens at the end of the Turn in TT. I can generate 37.5 (45 if you count Heat Cap boost) Heat with 19 MWO DHS, with Elite Efficiencies, before that Heat Scale kicks in.

I think part of this is that you might be misunderstanding the application of this in real time.
Consider this.
Could you effectively account for all heat penalties as they happen during the turn? You'd have to go back and reroll everything done; you'd have to do a turn within the turn, find out if anything that was done is still possible, etc.

Lets take that into consideration, the ability to do a turn at a per second basis instead of a 10 second basis, with the ability to modify things as we go along.
Lets take a Warhawk for example.

4 ER PPCS. We'll just use that. It has 20 DHS, so 40 cooling. In the end it should generate 20 heat at the end of the turn. But does it really? With movement that's 22 heat.
60 heat - 40 = 20 + 2 heat for movement = 22 heat. What really happened, though?
1 Clan ER PPC generates 15 heat.

Warhawk firing sequence.

0 seconds. Mech begins running. Fires 1 ER PPC. + 15 heat. 50% threshold!
1 second. Cooled 4. 11 heat left. Still accelerating.
2 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 7 heat left. Lines up next ER PPC. Finished accelerating.
3 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 3 heat left. Fires 2nd ER PPC. + 15 heat. (18 heat. That's 60% threshold, level 2 shutdown risk if sustained.)
4 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 14 heat left (in the clear; safe). Lines up a new shot.
5 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 10 heat left. (33.33% threshold). Adjusts aim.
6 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 6 heat left. Fires 3rd ER PPC + 15 heat = 21 heat. Level 2 shutdown risk if maintained. Ammunition explosion risk if maintained.
7 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 17 heat left. Note: This is a second or two from becoming a Level 1 shutdown risk to be played out. Mech is beginning to take a turn. Random Calculations done here due to asphalt and slip-hazard.
8 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 13 heat left. Shutdown risk avoided. Lined up aim.
9 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 9 heat left. Fires final ER PPC. + 15 heat = 24. (80% heat). Level 4 shutdown risk if sustained. Ammunition explosion risk if sustained.
10 seconds. Cooled 4 heat. 20 heat left.
Keep in mind this is while running, so there's 2 additional heat not factored in, so 22 heat left. It'd be something like "0.1 heat per second" walking and "0.2 heat per second" running.

Level 2 shutdown risk is rolled. In Tac Ops and advanced rules, heatsinks would have already blown during this.

A real time game is a bit more complicated than this, but the joys of a real time game can encompass all of this and more seamlessly into play.

Of course, this is assuming MWO-style ER PPCs.

Assuming lore style ER PPCs as depicted by Smith and Tinker (aka FASA's former founder) game Mechwarrior Tactical Command's introduction trailer and some of the better written books by authors who also played the game and really thought about it... Well I did this with an Awesome 9M earlier today. Enjoy the second version where it's applied.

Spoiler

If you shutdown at any point in that, you'd have to wait until 14 points of heat remain before you could start up. (For an Awesome 9M who decided to use 2 ER PPCs at once, that'd be an instant shutdown followed by 20 true DHS cooling... 4.0/sec cooling rate. 4 seconds? Lets try it.)

0 seconds: 30 heat. Shutdown.
1 second: 26.
2 seconds: 22.
3 seconds: 18.
4 seconds: 14.
Start up is now possible.

Now, to be fair... That's tabletop proper to real time.
Lore proper (with a competent author; I confess some of them might have written okay stories but didn't even look at the tabletop to make a relationship between the two) to real time is actually...
Pilot wants to fire two ER PPCs.
0 seconds. ER PPCs begin charging. Heat begins to build. +4 heat per ER PPC (8 heat accumulates between now and 1 second).
1 second. 4 heat is cooled. (4 heat remaining). ER PPCs are charged. The shot isn't lined up but it is fired nonetheless. Spike of 16 heat (total; 8 per ER PPC). (20 heat total now). Level 2 shutdown risk, if it stays here (say through firing an autocannon or some other means) it'd be a level 3 shutdown risk.
2 seconds. 4 heat is cooled, leaving 16 heat. But residual heat is still building (3 per ER PPC). 22 heat. (What do you know, it lingered above 20 heat, this just might be a level 3 shutdown risk).
3 seconds. 4 heat is cooled. 18 heat. (Back to level 2; but it has been lingering here).
4 seconds. 4 heat is cooled. 14 heat. If it did shutdown it'd be safe to power up now. The mech would still be largely impaired. This is assuming it didn't lose balance and fall over.
5 seconds. 4 heat is cooled. 10 heat (33.33% of threshold).
6 seconds, 4 heat is cooled. 6 heat. Movement still impaired but it'll finally be fairly responsive.
7 seconds, 4 heat is cooled. 2 heat. Mech is fine.
8 seconds, 4 heat is cooled. 0 heat (plus any movement heat is now cooled). Mech is great! Unless it fell earlier or the pilot lost consciousness.

So yes, if you sustain a heat value for a period of time, you would have the effects of it and everything below it. (For example keep riding 16 heat).
However, in real time it's not "I fired 45 heat of weapons and now I've only got 5 heat on the penalty box."

Edited by Koniving, 04 June 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[1453 R]

The real issue with all of this is that it means the heat bar stops being a resource one manages and more a giant club hanging over your head. If I’m starting to suffer penalties at 20% of my heatbar capacity, and if my ‘Mech is basically a shaved nosehair away from going nuclear before I hit the mandatory shutdown point, then realistically I’m never going to equip/use energy weapons again. Or anything else that doesn’t run absolutely and completely heat-neutral, because there’s no leeway in the system.

If a penalty-based heatscale system is employed, it needs to kick in at 50% of the heat bar at the lowest point – we need some room to work energy weapons with, don’t we? And things like ammo explosion, heat sink overstress, and other such permanently damaging effects should only occur in the 100%+ portion of the heat bar. As I understand it, the capacity of the heat bar is what your BattleMech is specifically designed to be able to withstand. Systems can be negatively affected, but you shouldn’t be suddenly going off like a fireworks show because you hit 60% of your heatbar and then managed a low roll in the backend somewhere. That would be complete bullshyte and we all know it, and would so monstrously overfavor ballistics as to be no contest.

You need to be punished if you screw up – but making smart use of a resource means making full use of it, and your BattleMech’s heat capacity is a resource. If you’re not frequently riding on the edge of shutdown in a long, nasty fight, then you’re honestly doing it wrong.

[Sephlock]

Question: Will the changes to falling damage also cause my Locusts' legs to snap in half after I "fall" 2 meters, as opposed to merely fracturing as they do now ?

[Koniving]

1453 R, on 04 June 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

You need to be punished if you screw up – but making smart use of a resource means making full use of it, and your BattleMech’s heat capacity is a resource. If you’re not frequently riding on the edge of shutdown in a long, nasty fight, then you’re honestly doing it wrong.

Given the system if we had 60 threshold, it'll be much easier to manage with the way players fire now.

With 30 threshold, 90% of pinpoint issues would be instantly gone. Fixing ACs to lore proper would remove them all (aside from Gauss; but that's a lore proper and look at the risks of it! Of course the Gauss in TT does quite a bit more damage when it explodes; so much that there wasn't any mech left after it.)

This would be because most players would never fire more than 4 ML at once. 2 LL. 1 PPC. Sometimes 2 PPCs but it comes at a risk and you'd never carry an AC with it. 1 ER PPC.

We could even go back to 1x armor and structure values and still live longer than we do today.

Right now my Victor has 88.56 threshold. That's 4 ER PPCs, 2 PPCs, and 2 ML in MWO fired at the same time, and I'd still not shut down. It's a bit of an issue. Really the core issue is the rising threshold.

Anyway, you'd learn heat management. But even better, SHS would be worth while again. You'd fire fewer energy weapons at once and you'd fire them often. Instead of firing all at once and firing them rarely.

Thinking back, MWO did once have something like this. Closed beta, early June.

It kicked in at 80% heat (but that is way too high with what we can get now). What would happen is if you kept riding 80% heat (with only SHS this was easy), you'd systematically take damage to heatsinks, ammunition and supposedly weapons and equipment.

Over time, this means the ammunition could explode, the heatsinks could melt.

At 90% and above, there was a shutdown risk. Pressing O would avoid this but there wasn't any explanations about that. At 95% it's twice as likely to happen (no idea what the risk was). At 100% was a mandatory shutdown, even if you hit O. At 100+% heat, ammunition could instantly explode (or perhaps that was just timing). I've had explosions happen shortly after getting too hot. I've had heatsinks melt and AMS ammo explode before I hit 90. Bishop Steiner keyed in that he recalled ammo explosions while sharp shooting or somesuch at 85%.

It was a pretty cool effect and for months after R&R was removed and DHS was super powerful, I still chain fired out of habit.

Edited by Koniving, 04 June 2014 - 05:19 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

With 30 threshold, 90% of pinpoint issues would be instantly gone.

Except ive already explained to you why a 30 threshold wouldnt work: Gauss rifles.

Gauss rifles allow you to do 30+ pinpoint damage while completely circumventing the lower heat threshold.

Pinpoint issues would not instantly be gone. Players would just be instantly forced into using Gauss.

[Gizmoh]

Yeah, I'm not so sure that heat penalties would help curb the poptarts, AFAIK those don't run very hot, compared to brawlers.
I mean, sure, when fighting close those ppc's are going to get very hot but on the approach? at range? where a poptart is at it's strongest? no problem at all.

[XX Sulla XX]

I would rather have something that only punishes pop tarts and not every mech running jump jets. Mainly because these types of "fixes" seem to do very little to jump snipers but be a big hit to jump brawlers etc. What they need to do is fix pin point damage at range.

[1453 R]

Koniving, on 04 June 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

Given the system if we had 60 threshold, it'll be much easier to manage with the way players fire now.

With 30 threshold, 90% of pinpoint issues would be instantly gone. Fixing ACs to lore proper would remove them all (aside from Gauss; but that's a lore proper and look at the risks of it! Of course the Gauss in TT does quite a bit more damage when it explodes; so much that there wasn't any mech left after it.)

This would be because most players would never fire more than 4 ML at once. 2 LL. 1 PPC. Sometimes 2 PPCs but it comes at a risk and you'd never carry an AC with it. 1 ER PPC.

Or you could equip an AC/20, even with burstfire adjustment, and fire it all day every day for more DPS than those four medium lasers, and rather than riding the ragged edge of thermonuclear detonation for firing four frickin’ medium lasers, you’d just pwninate entire games all day long. Or at least all energy-based machines all day long, which wouldn’t take long because they’d vanish from the face of Creation. Light ‘Mechs without SRM hardpoints vanish altogether because firing the only weapons they can mount means they run a serious and unavoidable risk of turning into background radiation, even if they don’t actually exceed their heat limits.

The penalties as listed are too harsh. These are war machines – they’re meant to be able to stand up to adverse conditions and handle their own weaponry enough to get the job done. We all strive to stay under the heat cushion as much as possible – if you make it so the heat cushion tops out at the bottom of the heat bar, then only those ‘Mechs which generate zero heat remain viable.

Don’t do that. I like light ‘Mechs, and lasers, and builds that don’t center on nothing but autocannons Q_Q…

[Khobai]

Quote

Or you could equip an AC/20, even with burstfire adjustment, and fire it all day every day for more DPS than those four medium lasers

Exactly. A heat threshold of 30 heavily favors ballistics over energy weapons. Energy weapons would stop being used almost completely overnight. Autocannons and Gauss would instantly become the new meta.

A much better heat system is one that encourages the use of all combinations of weapons and doesnt place artificial limits on how many of each type of weapon someone can fire; either by imposing a low heat capacity or something more convoluted like ghost heat. The only reason we need these artificial limiters is pinpoint damage, but if pinpoint damage was properly dealt with, thered be no reason to have those limiters anymore.

If someone wants to build a Stalker with 4 PPCs and alphastrike them all at once, there should be NOTHING preventing them from doing that. PPCs should simply be balanced with that type of build in mind in the first place. So instead of PPCs doing 10 damage to one location theyd instead do 6 damage to one location and 4 damage to an adjacent location. A 4 PPC Stalker would now only do 24 pinpoint damage (and 16 arcing damage) which is far from overpowered.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 05:57 PM.