220 replies to this topic

[Nikkoru]

Why change the weapons? Just make it so you cannot shoot while jumping.

[Aresye]

Jump sniping is the preferred tactic for a variety of reasons. Most of which PGI consciously implemented.

1. Horrible LRM mechanics that are easily nulled to non-existence with hard countering ECM.
2. Horrible hit detection with streaks/SRMs.
3. Horrible ghost heat with both regular and pulse lasers.
4. Horrible charge mechanic on gauss rifle.
5. Nerfs to AC/20.
6. Nerfs to AC/10.
7. Nerfs to AC/2.
8. Mobility nerfs to the Victor and Highlander that completely voided brawling as viable.

What do you honestly have left? PPCs, and AC/5s, and the main reason for regular PPCs is because of the heat system.

It isn't the pinpoint convergence that's the issue here. Lasers, gauss, and ERPPCs all have perfect convergence. Gauss and ERPPCs are FLD as well, yet they are both seldom seen and don't hold up to the current meta very well.

It's the underlying mechanics that are the main driving factors behind the current meta. Hit detection sucks, the heat system is totally FUBAR, and ECM is way too good.

The meta is not the problem. It is a symptom of the true problems.

Edited by Aresye, 04 June 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Nikkoru, on 04 June 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

Not only is it killing variety and driving off new players, it is so far removed from the lore as to make this basically unrecognizable s a Battletech game.

Is nothing going to be done to fix it?

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 04 June 2014 - 09:35 PM.

[WarZ]

Divine Retribution, on 04 June 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

I figured PGI is catering to the meta players because careful analysis showed that meta players can fully support the game financially. The other 80% of players are occasionally thrown a bone so that they continue playing, thus giving the meta players ample targets. But honestly meta is only an issue when ran by groups of skilled players (who rarely if ever run anything else).

As an aside, I hate Elo more than the meta because I fight good 4-mans or multiple of those 4-mans for hours at a time. If I wait a few minutes before launching again, I just run into a different group. If the current meta is killed, they will just find another (there will always be a meta), and I'll just have to keep fighting the same groups in whatever mechs happen to be meta. My stats are pretty much the same archived as current (slightly higher W:L in current than archived), so what's the point of the broken system? Oh right, to eliminate the fun I could have by dropping into games that aren't full-on meta fights and punish me (and anyone who happens to be on my team) for playing anything other than 3-4 mechs.

Agreed, signed, and so wishing it wasnt true.

[WarZ]

GreyGriffin, on 04 June 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

Wrong.

If it wasn't PPCs, it'd be AC 10's, banks of AC 5's, or whatever gets the biggest FLD bang at the longest range.

The key problem with jump sniping is pinpoint accuracy. PPCs doing damage isn't a big deal, but being able to hammer 2-3 PPCs worth of damage onto a single component in one trigger pull is.

Almost right. The key issue is low risk vs very high reward. Popping up for just a second to unleash that big alpha, but then instantly dropping back into full cover offering almost zero to none chance of taking return fire. So you get to enjoy delivering that massive alpha, but 1/2 to 3/4 of the time you take ZERO damage in return. Maybe a light grazing.

Its a far cry from having to trudge out from cover being exposed, firing being exposed, then back tracking into cover being exposed. Damage is taken far more frequently and in far greater amounts. Entirely different experience.

Sure that high pinpoint alpha contributes to the issue. But its not the key issue.

Low risk vs VERY high reward = exploit = broken. PGI letting it exist for sooooo long is an insult.

A very simple (and logically easy fix since they already have the code in place) is to enforce reticule shake and its accuracy degradation at ANY time a mech is in the air. Accuracy for jump sniping will be poor at best. Now you have low reward to go with that low risk.

The game changes overnight. And for such a small investment of code / tweaking an already existing parameter.

Edited by WarZ, 04 June 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[Keith66AH]

It is a rare occasion that I ever poptart. Honestly the reticle shakes too much, takes too much time to find the target and get a clean shot. I also rarely see it done or have it done to me. I have also seen a few Poptarters annihilated. Once they show where they are players maneuver around and take them out. Or they get LRMed to death. Last poptart I saw got his head blown off his third jump. He stayed in the same spot an jumped the same time. POP goes the poptart.

Problem isn't with the tactic its with people not thinking of a counter to it, or get mad because they stood there in the same place and made themselves an easy target. DONT STAND IN THE OPEN AND DONT STAND STILL, and USE TEAMWORK. Tell your team where he is. Adapt or die.

I see a lot of complaints about how everything is messed up. Sure the game has some issues but nothing that makes it unplayable or enjoyable. They just nerfed all the ACs and upgraded the damage for SRMS and reduced their spread as well increased the range of some of the lasers. Next thing you know someone will complain about those.

If you want something to complain about see about having them block the so called aimbots and hacks that shoot through walls I hear about.

There are really only a few maps that really favor a poptart anyway. Most offer enough cover and non open areas to move through without being a target.

My only complaint is lag issues. Kills me way more times then any poptart or LRM junky.

Edited by Keith Youngblood, 04 June 2014 - 09:14 PM.

[3rdworld]

Just finished a match, 7/12 of the enemy were Dragon Slayers.

[El Bandito]

3rdworld, on 04 June 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Just finished a match, 7/12 of the enemy were Dragon Slayers.

Ouch.

[ManDaisy]

Jump sniping is always going to be around because its safe and effective. Screen already shakes. They are going to make jump jets generate more heat.

The only other fix I can think of is Fixing the HIT BOX desync while jumping to make them less invunerable mid air.

An anti hill hump/ jumpsnipe weapon has been proposed for a while http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mech_Mortar

But it hasnt gotten any traction outside of appearing as in game artifacts.

Edited by ManDaisy, 04 June 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[Peter2k]

Keith Youngblood, on 04 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

It is a rare occasion that I ever poptart. Honestly the reticle shakes too much, takes too much time to find the target and get a clean shot. I also rarely see it done or have it done to me. I have also seen a few Poptarters annihilated. Once they show where they are players maneuver around and take them out. Or they get LRMed to death. Last poptart I saw got his head blown off his third jump. He stayed in the same spot an jumped the same time. POP goes the poptart.

Problem isn't with the tactic its with people not thinking of a counter to it, or get mad because they stood there in the same place and made themselves an easy target. DONT STAND IN THE OPEN AND DONT STAND STILL, and USE TEAMWORK. Tell your team where he is. Adapt or die.

I see a lot of complaints about how everything is messed up. Sure the game has some issues but nothing that makes it unplayable or enjoyable. They just nerfed all the ACs and upgraded the damage for SRMS and reduced their spread as well increased the range of some of the lasers. Next thing you know someone will complain about those.

If you want something to complain about see about having them block the so called aimbots and hacks that shoot through walls I hear about.

There are really only a few maps that really favor a poptart anyway. Most offer enough cover and non open areas to move through without being a target.

My only complaint is lag issues. Kills me way more times then any poptart or LRM junky.

All maps favor poptarting, if you're in cover from brawlers you're also in cover from lrm's and other poptarts.
If you go up against a group of 2 to 3 poptarts up close then they can still destroy you easily if they know what they're doing.
One is bait the other two keep on hammering you hard keeping just outside the 90m range.

If you position well than no map is a real hindrance to tarting.

As for them not being effective?
every game, literally every game has at least 4 tarts, most times victors, or half victors and half 3D's, than some ilya's with 2 AC5's and 2 PPC'S.
Than some BJ's, guess what they do with they're JJ's.
and in the back you have 2 LRM Stalkers.

good luck going up against a force like that.
You can't flank the Stalkers cuz of jump snipers, you can't flank the snipers because of LRM's.

The game has literally devolved having only AC5's and PPC's (or hell any weapon with FLD and good enough stats like it ALWAYS HAS BEEN, its not the weapons or the balancing there off, its the actual possibility delivering max alpha in on spot and then drop back behind cover without getting hit back) be viable weapons, and maybe LRM's if you boat the hell out of them.

And as a tip, the reticule only jiggles so much when you go up, as soon as the JJ's are off you have to fire, not sooner.
And Jump Sniping is really easy once you have around 6 on you're team, you can cover each other so easily, throw in a dedicated LRM boat or two and youre golden

Well I guess something had to be done to make those Timberwolf arms with the big hitboxes of the Missile Launchers viable.
Lets call them untouchables from now on.
PPC Jump snipers with clan streaks, you can't touch this; brought to you by MC Hammer

Also, there actually are aimbots? really? for this niche game?

[Demuder]

Madw0lf, on 04 June 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

I gotta wonder how much of this poptarting meta everyone is soooo intent on whining about (I see nearly zero whenever I play) is caused by this asinine attitude. Bet half the problem would go away without any work on PGIs part if people would stop being so....people like

You nailed it buddy. It's all in our head ;-)

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 June 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

It's just interesting how PGI has favored one playstyle for so long. I can't imagine this to be a result of incompetence

I can.

[Khobai]

Quote

Jump sniping is always going to be around because its safe and effective.

Id be curious to see how effective jump sniping would be if the projectile velocity on PPCs was lowered. PPCs being able to put that 20 damage wherever you want it instantly is the biggest problem I see with jump sniping. I personally think PPCs doing arcing damage or damage over time would be better, but projectile velocity is something they can tweak within the timespan of one patch.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Keith Youngblood, on 04 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Sure the game has some issues but nothing that makes it unplayable or enjoyable.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Alex Warden]

krash27, on 04 June 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Yup, one of the most powerful weapons in the lore, but in MWO it weighs barely more than an AC 2

you know that it weighs exactly the same as "the lore" dictates, right? effectively it has been nerfed in some ways already...

more nerfs would do nothing but annihilate the weapon or not change anything at all... longer recycle time? no big deal for a poptart... MORE heat? comeon it´s hot enough... would only make it less attractive to anything but a poptart build... again, no big deal for poptarts...

you can´t fix a broken clock by making one gear-wheel weaker...

Edited by Alex Warden, 04 June 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

more nerfs would do nothing but annihilate the weapon or not change anything at all

PPCs are so much better than other weapons, that a single nerf is hardly going to annihilate them. They arnt just a little better than lasers, theyre magnitudes better.

[Kain]

Just make the reticule shake the whole time the mech is in the air, thus also when dropping after using their jumpjets, so there is no optimal point to unload.

blame it on the gyros or whatever.

[Arete]

Wouldn't the easiest fix be to just slow down the recharge rate for jumpjets?

Right now you can jump, wait for a few seconds, jump. Make a full recharge on JJs take far longer, and base it on mech size since more tonnage = more fuel needed. If a 3D had to wait 40 seconds between each jump it wouldn't be as bad. Even longer on the victor, and even longer for the highlander. A light would be pretty much as it is right now, since they feel kind of fine.

[AssaultPig]

The problem with poptarting isn't the damage; a lot of mechs will out-dps your garden variety jump sniping victor or cat3D in a straight brawl. The problem is that it's a highly risk-averse strategy; assaults and heavies with high, long-range firepower don't have to expose themselves nearly as long as other mechs with those weapons. The only thing you can do in a victor/3D that you can't do in practically any other assault is jump, and that's where the problem is.

If you don't see poptarts all the time, I dunno what the hell bracket you're playing in. It seems like every other game I drop in has a lance full of dragon slayers; the running joke in my regular group is that the new 4/4/4 matchmaker will mandate four heavies, four assaults and four victors.

It's hideously unbalanced and more importantly, un-fun to play against (and to play, at least imo.) PGI either can't figure out a fix or don't care.

[Alexandrix]

The PPC is fine.Matter of fact I actually think it travels way to slow for what is essentially man made lightning.

It's not the weapon that is broken.It's the fact that you can jump into the air,unload a full alpha of pinpoint damage,and then be back in cover before anyone can return fire.

Poptarting is easy,effective,and efficient.

As long as the ability to fire while jumping in and out of cover exists.poptarting will be the dominate tactic.There simply is no better way.

Edited by Alexandrix, 04 June 2014 - 11:56 PM.