220 replies to this topic

[Eglar]

Nikkoru, on 04 June 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

Not only is it killing variety.

I'll partially agree on that. "Jump-Sniping" as most people regard as shooting pin-point alphas from 300-800 Meters in a JJ capable mech to be a very preferable tactic, because they can deal with any kind of situation (any map). In fact, more variety is what most of people in this game want, regardless if they are hardcore competitive players or the casual player. With ppc/ac5 being a very dominant build, I do agree that PGI should do something to increase amount of viable builds, so we get more variety.

Unfortunately, unlike statistical weapon/mechstats, you can't accurately rate the advantages of have JJs against the current map-terrain or the accuracy of the player playing a certain build and this is why many people regard accuracy along with situation awareness as a "skill" to have in MW:O. Currently PGI is, step by step taking action to softnerf jump-snipers so other builds might surface. Personally, I do find this approach very good.

That being said, regarding some statements here:

Nikkoru, on 04 June 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

it is so far removed from the lore as to make this basically unrecognizable s a Battletech game.

Wrong. It's part of the lore.

WazOfOz, on 04 June 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

TT rules jumping/movement & firing weapons are separate moves. for the sake of keeping the game moving make it so unless a mech has at least 1 foot on the ground, they cannot fire their weapons.

1 Tabletop turn equals 10 seconds in no particular order. If you move/jump and shoot, it could also mean that you do it simultaneously.

Edited by Eglar, 05 June 2014 - 01:29 AM.

[zortesh]

I think it could be fixed by altering jumpjets, make them hurl you through the air like mad, throw you 200 meters in whatever direction... the flight should also be unstable and prone to leaving your mech lying on its face or side if you weren't careful and didn't tap your jumpjets on the way down.

None of this slow controlled ascent bullshit, jumpjets are for repositioning... make them useful for repositioning... atm there only good for climbing and poptarting.

That way you could jump and shoot still, it'd be useful for repositioning. far more then it is now... but no poptart will ever be able to poptart anymore.. as they'd essentially be abandoning any cover anytime they did.

Honestly playing 5-6 games in a row when theres 4-8 metamechs is lame, heck almost every mech i see is a jumpsnipers, i see jenner f's with 2 ppc's jumpsniping, jumpsniping shadowhawks... literally anything with jumpjets is loaded out with ppcs.

Also... falling damage on the legs should be internal damage... Damaging the armour makes no sense.

[GreyGriffin]

How is Jump Sniping part of the lore? Jumping in a Battlemech is described as a bone-jarring experience, and landing from a jump is considered one of the most difficult acts a Mechwarrior can perform. Actually scoring a hit from mid air is a deed worthy of the likes of Kai Allard-Liao.

Jump Jets are used for strategic and tactical mobility, and defensive maneuvering, not hovering in the backfield landing sniper shots.

[l33tworks]

Cone of fire has been suggested in the past but I guess some players and PGI are against it. Ok lets say fair enough to that for now, but how about they introduce cone of fire ONLY when you are airbourne? It would be a great way to sotp the current meta and test out the system for possible further implementation for example while running.

How about in heavier mechs when you land the mechs entire upper body shifts down and you have to realign it up while your mech takes 2-3 seconds to get moving again? The animation of the mech does this anyway when you land why isn't it reflected from the players perspective?

There are so many simple values they can alter to change the pop tarting meta.

Edited by l33tworks, 05 June 2014 - 12:35 AM.

[Alex Warden]

Arete, on 04 June 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Wouldn't the easiest fix be to just slow down the recharge rate for jumpjets?

Right now you can jump, wait for a few seconds, jump. Make a full recharge on JJs take far longer, and base it on mech size since more tonnage = more fuel needed. If a 3D had to wait 40 seconds between each jump it wouldn't be as bad. Even longer on the victor, and even longer for the highlander. A light would be pretty much as it is right now, since they feel kind of fine.

well that maybe too ...but as i suggested already elsewhere... i would love the JJ mechanics of MC/ MC2... you can jump in a DIRECTION, not straight upwards...you always jump in an arch towards the direction you are facing... i think that should work paired with a longer cooldown (scaled by weightclass), sounds like they would still be viable (maybe even more)

you could also add an adjustable "foward/ upwards" ratio for the arch, with a minimum of let´s say 1/3 forward and a minimum of 1/3 upwards thrust... so you dont have a "jetski" but also dont have to fly too high in a light mech something like that

would make poptarting way more of a challenge, but it would still be possible with some effort, so making it more of a situational decision other than the rule

Edited by Alex Warden, 05 June 2014 - 12:47 AM.

[Lykaon]

GreyGriffin, on 04 June 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

Wrong.

If it wasn't PPCs, it'd be AC 10's, banks of AC 5's, or whatever gets the biggest FLD bang at the longest range.

The key problem with jump sniping is pinpoint accuracy. PPCs doing damage isn't a big deal, but being able to hammer 2-3 PPCs worth of damage onto a single component in one trigger pull is. This game needs to spread damage across the 'mechs to mitigate the sniperfest. Once you can pop out of cover without immediately losing a specific torso, huge swathes of both underused tactics and underused 'mechs become viable again.

I agree and the simple method for fixing this is to ditch the FLD mechanics.No one uses large laser poptart because it does spread that damage all over a target.

ACs need burst fire (probably not the AC2 as it almost works as a burst fire weapon as is)

PPC should use short duration beam mechanics (better choice over arcing or splash as it allows skilled gunners to be rewarded for their skill through improved damage concentration and not have a mechanic replace skill)

SRMs may then need ripple fire instead of cluster shots (this may actually be the answer for SRM hit detection anyhow)

Next if pinpoint still causes issues a slight alteration to groupfired weapons may be needed.

A simple fix would be a very short delay between weapon discharges in a single weapon group.

An example: 6 medium lasers are grouped together and fired.

At 0.0 seconds weapon one is discharged
At 0.2 seconds weapon two is discharged
At 0.4 seconds weapon three is discharged
At 0.6 seconds weapon four is discharge
At 0.8 seconds weapon five is discharge
At 1.0 seconds weapon six is discharge

Selecting and firing a second weapon group terminates the firing of the previous weapon group to prevent a work around for the fire delays by firing several weapon groups together.By firing a second weapon group after begining firing a first incurs a .2 second delay before the first weapon of the second group discharges.
Essentialy firing any weapon after another weapon has fired will incur a .2 second delay in weapon discharge.

Edited by Lykaon, 05 June 2014 - 12:54 AM.

[Eglar]

GreyGriffin, on 05 June 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

How is Jump Sniping part of the lore?

Jadephoenix Triology - Falconguard by Robert Thurston Page 78/79. 2nd Edition

Spoiler

The 'Mechs of Horse and Margo, another of his Falcon Guard Command MechWarriors, also had jump ability. They stayed with their commander, a couple of 'Mech paces behind, as he pushed his Timber Wolf forward. At the very crest of the hill Aidan engaged his jump jets and glided upward, reaching a quick zenith, then coming down, ahead of the BattleMechs of the Twelfth Falcon Cluster, and closer to Robyn's Crossing than any Jade Falcon BattleMech had yet come.
Descending, Aidan blasted away at the Com Guard 'Mechs defending the head of the bridge. They had not been expecting a BattleMech assault from the sky, which gave Aidan and his pair of cohorts an immediate and significant advantage. An edge at the edge of the world, Aidan thought.
He used his angle to blast away at the head of a heavy BattleMech that his secondary screen identified as a type called a Thug. Targeting his large lasers, he made a direct and fatal hit against the head of the Thug, no doubt ending the life of its pilot. He did not have time to watch the 'Mech stagger backward against a bridge stanchion, then plunge into the deep waters of the churning Prezno River. The splash it made was impressive, the waters rising up onto the bridge surface leaving puddles along its roadway.
Aidan's attention was on another ComStar 'Mech, a sleek, bigfooted Sentinel that was just swinging its autocannon upward to fire at the Timber Wolf. Firing over the shoulders of Aidan's 'Mech, MechWarrior Margo, in a light Mist Lynx, got a lock onto the center torso of the Sentinel, then destroyed it with a set of sleek-arcing missiles. The enemy 'Mech fell to the ground, flames shooting from its chest.
Horse managed to take out a pair of ComStar 'Mechs during his descent, while Aidan gave a ComStar Rifleman a limp.
By the time the trio of Clan BattleMechs had landed, the bridge defense was in disarray.

En Garde by Michael A. Stackpole Page 105 Chapter 29

Spoiler

His finger caressed the fire button and another flight of LRMs coursed toward the Victor.

Suddenly the Victor rose up through the canopy and hung suspended on a jet of ion flame. As the autocannon that was the enemy 'Mech's right forearm came up, alarms again wailed in Dan's ears. Stabbing a button, he abruptly cut his jump jets. The Valkyrie started to fall as the Victor's autocannon rose into line, but the surprise move did not save him.

Lost Destiny Michael A.Stackpole Page 134 Chapter 35

Spoiler

Held aloft by the silver jump jet spears at the back of his 'Mech, Galen's Crusader soared over the battlefield. He loosed flights of LRMs from the shoulder launchers to strike at distant targets, while the Streak SRMs from the Crusader's legs slashed out at anyone who got too close. When he grounded himself again, a double-flight of LRMs struck down a fleeing Clan Firestarter.

Way of the Clans by Robert Thurston Chapter 21

Spoiler

As he had hoped, the Hellbringer closed ranks, edging in toward the Warhawk. Between them was a large rock. It was time for his calculated risk. Using the left-leg jump jets for a quick leap backward and sideways, Aidan simultaneously released a long-range missile barrage, aimed downward so that it would land between the two enemies, impacting against the rock and sending enough shreds and shrapnel against the two 'Mechs to send them both to the ground.

There is one more JJ scenario in Riposte by Stackpole where a Blackjack jumpshoots all his weapons in a Solaris Arena Match, legs a (Kai's)Centurion but in return gets killed by Kai Allard Liao mid-air with his Yen Lo Wang.

There are more in other occasions that I've missed.

And let's not forget about MW3, MW4 also a part of "Battletech History" you can also add in MC and MC2, where mechs can shoot while jumping.

Though personally, I don't care much about lore or TT rules. But you DO understand that everyone wants to be an Aidan Pryde when playing an MMO Game, right?

Edited by Eglar, 05 June 2014 - 01:19 AM.

[Eglar]

Also: Here's a guide for brawling against Jump-Snipers (just patch-worked) while am well aware that it still limits the Variety by alot it's a good start, eh? ;-)

Edited by Eglar, 05 June 2014 - 01:16 AM.

[Lykaon]

Keith Youngblood, on 04 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

It is a rare occasion that I ever poptart. Honestly the reticle shakes too much, takes too much time to find the target and get a clean shot. I also rarely see it done or have it done to me. I have also seen a few Poptarters annihilated. Once they show where they are players maneuver around and take them out. Or they get LRMed to death. Last poptart I saw got his head blown off his third jump. He stayed in the same spot an jumped the same time. POP goes the poptart.

Problem isn't with the tactic its with people not thinking of a counter to it, or get mad because they stood there in the same place and made themselves an easy target. DONT STAND IN THE OPEN AND DONT STAND STILL, and USE TEAMWORK. Tell your team where he is. Adapt or die.

I see a lot of complaints about how everything is messed up. Sure the game has some issues but nothing that makes it unplayable or enjoyable. They just nerfed all the ACs and upgraded the damage for SRMS and reduced their spread as well increased the range of some of the lasers. Next thing you know someone will complain about those.

If you want something to complain about see about having them block the so called aimbots and hacks that shoot through walls I hear about.

There are really only a few maps that really favor a poptart anyway. Most offer enough cover and non open areas to move through without being a target.

My only complaint is lag issues. Kills me way more times then any poptart or LRM junky.

Oh neewbie how I love your watery eyed optimism your lack of perspective or experience I so miss those days....

But seriously though no insult intended so don't get all upset (hazing the new recruits is a time honored tradition ya know )

Have you seen the list of 15 mechs used to win the recent tournament? if not go look at it it will open your eyes and harden your heart.

Or I can sum it up for you...

If it was over 35 tons it was a shadowhawk a cataphract 3D or a Dragon Slayer Victor.

5 of the 15 were dragonslayers.

None of the mechs over 35 tons used a single laser SRM SSRM or LRM no machine guns or flamers or LBX10s

They all used AC5s PPC ER-PPCs AC20s and Gauss Rifles every last one of them with the vast majority using the exact same build 2 AC5s 2 PPCs.They all also had JumpJets!

That is correct the winners of the tournament were all poptarts every last mech used jumpjets and every mech over 35 tons used front loaded damage weapon groups.

Is there a tactic that counters maximized cover use with maximized damage placement and output? only one I can think of is (queue 1980s film quote) Not To Play.

Sorry for this but someone should tell you.The entire game boils down to the following.

is your mech over 35 tons? if yes go to next section.

Is your mech a Victor,Highlander 733c,cataphract 3D or shadowhawk? if yes see next section if no prepare for a loss.

Is your mech exclusivley armed with PPCs ER-PPC AC5s or Gauss rifles and uses jumpjets? if yes go to next section if no prepare for a loss.

Congradulations you have "won" Mechwarrior online!

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

The worst part is, jump sniping isnt even a difficult thing to fix. All PGI has to do is nerf PPCs. PPCs are the entire reason jump sniping exists in the first place. Because PPCs are completely broken weapon for their combination of frontloaded damage, high projectile velocity, and low weight (even a blackjack can carry two PPCs).

You have to admit though... PPCs came a very long way from days when YOU were complaining they were worthless pieces of scrap.

[FlipOver]

It is so easy to get a macro where it delays your PPCs enough to fire together with the Gauss.

And it is already working in game.

I tried so much to not use the meta but it seems PGI wants us ALL to use it, so I'll fire up my VTRs and 3D again and fit them with PPCs/Gauss and lets give PGI their precious metrics using a macro for a little extra help on a veeeee-eeeee-eeery hard role in this game.

[Wolfways]

Poptarts are bad mechs. There are just so many sheep that think they're good, and bad players that let themselves get hit.
Unfortunately you can't take out an entire team by yourself when your idiot teammates run to the slaughter.

[Joseph Mallan]

FlipOver, on 05 June 2014 - 01:24 AM, said:

It is so easy to get a macro where it delays your PPCs enough to fire together with the Gauss.

And it is already working in game.

I tried so much to not use the meta but it seems PGI wants us ALL to use it, so I'll fire up my VTRs and 3D again and fit them with PPCs/Gauss and lets give PGI their precious metrics using a macro for a little extra help on a veeeee-eeeee-eeery hard role in this game.

I had worked out charging my Gauss and then pressing the PPC trigger back when I had a Gauss and ERPPC on my D-DC.

[Mr D One]

smEg, on 05 June 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

But you DO understand that everyone wants to be an Aidan Pryde when playing an MMO Game, right?

Not me, I would rather be me.

I would rather play my own game and lose, then follow the sheep and win.

Edited by Dar1ng One, 05 June 2014 - 01:28 AM.

[Peter2k]

Eglar, on 05 June 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

Jadephoenix Triology - Falconguard by Robert Thurston Page 78/79. 2nd Edition

Spoiler

The 'Mechs of Horse and Margo, another of his Falcon Guard Command MechWarriors, also had jump ability. They stayed with their commander, a couple of 'Mech paces behind, as he pushed his Timber Wolf forward. At the very crest of the hill Aidan engaged his jump jets and glided upward, reaching a quick zenith, then coming down, ahead of the BattleMechs of the Twelfth Falcon Cluster, and closer to Robyn's Crossing than any Jade Falcon BattleMech had yet come.
Descending, Aidan blasted away at the Com Guard 'Mechs defending the head of the bridge. They had not been expecting a BattleMech assault from the sky, which gave Aidan and his pair of cohorts an immediate and significant advantage. An edge at the edge of the world, Aidan thought.
He used his angle to blast away at the head of a heavy BattleMech that his secondary screen identified as a type called a Thug. Targeting his large lasers, he made a direct and fatal hit against the head of the Thug, no doubt ending the life of its pilot. He did not have time to watch the 'Mech stagger backward against a bridge stanchion, then plunge into the deep waters of the churning Prezno River. The splash it made was impressive, the waters rising up onto the bridge surface leaving puddles along its roadway.
Aidan's attention was on another ComStar 'Mech, a sleek, bigfooted Sentinel that was just swinging its autocannon upward to fire at the Timber Wolf. Firing over the shoulders of Aidan's 'Mech, MechWarrior Margo, in a light Mist Lynx, got a lock onto the center torso of the Sentinel, then destroyed it with a set of sleek-arcing missiles. The enemy 'Mech fell to the ground, flames shooting from its chest.
Horse managed to take out a pair of ComStar 'Mechs during his descent, while Aidan gave a ComStar Rifleman a limp.
By the time the trio of Clan BattleMechs had landed, the bridge defense was in disarray.

En Garde by Michael A. Stackpole Page 105 Chapter 29

Spoiler

His finger caressed the fire button and another flight of LRMs coursed toward the Victor.

Suddenly the Victor rose up through the canopy and hung suspended on a jet of ion flame. As the autocannon that was the enemy 'Mech's right forearm came up, alarms again wailed in Dan's ears. Stabbing a button, he abruptly cut his jump jets. The Valkyrie started to fall as the Victor's autocannon rose into line, but the surprise move did not save him.

Lost Destiny Michael A.Stackpole Page 134 Chapter 35

Spoiler

Held aloft by the silver jump jet spears at the back of his 'Mech, Galen's Crusader soared over the battlefield. He loosed flights of LRMs from the shoulder launchers to strike at distant targets, while the Streak SRMs from the Crusader's legs slashed out at anyone who got too close. When he grounded himself again, a double-flight of LRMs struck down a fleeing Clan Firestarter.

Way of the Clans by Robert Thurston Chapter 21

Spoiler

As he had hoped, the Hellbringer closed ranks, edging in toward the Warhawk. Between them was a large rock. It was time for his calculated risk. Using the left-leg jump jets for a quick leap backward and sideways, Aidan simultaneously released a long-range missile barrage, aimed downward so that it would land between the two enemies, impacting against the rock and sending enough shreds and shrapnel against the two 'Mechs to send them both to the ground.

There is one more JJ scenario in Riposte by Stackpole where a Blackjack jumpshoots all his weapons in a Solaris Arena Match, legs a (Kai's)Centurion but in return gets killed by Kai Allard Liao mid-air with his Yen Lo Wang.

There are more in other occasions that I've missed.

And let's not forget about MW3, MW4 also a part of "Battletech History" you can also add in MC and MC2, where mechs can shoot while jumping.

Though personally, I don't care much about lore or TT rules. But you DO understand that everyone wants to be an Aidan Pryde when playing an MMO Game, right?

Lore this, Lore that
lets just say Birdpeople
I wonder if the franchise was actually so hellbent on thinking about the lore and keeping it logical or just wanted to sell some books that where fun to read.
e.g. walking straigh through a damaged Mech, eh? lets see that implemented too.
or axes, I'm a viking after all.

MC 2, ah yes, pinpoint damage while jumping, errr wait no, randomized hitlocations - check, roll against pilot skill - check

I'm sure you have to roll the dice quite a few times on a TT battlefield to make jump sniping work. Oops Pilot just got injured while landing.



It just comes down to this, is it fun?
PGI went out against lore, TT, older MW titles and what not; on the promise to balance and to make the game fun.

there have been some ideas, from more damage to legs (they are assaults weighing more after all) to a cone or some target computer overload.
just start somewhere on the test server and try it out.

[Monkey Lover]

Really 3 weapons of the same type shot to the maxium weapon range should never hit the same spot. There are to many variables for this to happen.Weapons should have some randomize drift with range.

[Eglar]

Peter2k, on 05 June 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

Lore this, Lore that
lets just say Birdpeople

As you can see I am currently a green bird-man.
But there you go, people shouldn't throw in the Lore-argument just because it's so convenient to do.

[Mr D One]

Smeg[size=4], on 05 June 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

[/size]
Also: Here's a guide for brawling against Jump-Snipers (just patch-worked) while am well aware that it still limits the Variety by alot it's a good start, eh? ;-)

Hahahaha what a joke. Follow your own guide in the next tournament and see how you go.

[Eglar]

Dar1ng One, on 05 June 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Hahahaha what a joke. Follow your own guide in the next tournament and see how you go.

Yea, I'll definitely put it into my next solo-drop tournament weekend mech-list. I've had some good results with the 9s so far,

[Nova Latios Storm]

Jumpsnipeing takes skil. It is harder on MW4.