208 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Willothius, on 13 June 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

If they pick the numbers right, it won't wreck non-jumpers, it'll only make things more REALISTIC, and that's good!
-If you have JJ's, you NEED to save fuel for landing; takes skill, adds risk to using 'em, and sounds much more real to me.
-If you don't have JJ's, you need to pilot your mech accordingly; don't just run off high cliffs if you can't absorb the shock, you shouldn't be immune to falling great heights! Again, with proper numbers, you won't get dmg for just 'sliding downhill', but you WON'T be immune to falling damage..

You misunderstand why this wrecks non-jumpers in your glee at OMG REALISM! (not that that's a bad thing).

The problem - and it's a serious problem in MWO today - is that jump equipped mechs are vastly more mobile due to our map design and the new movement rules (hill climbing, etc). Obviously, this should be the case, but the reality is that there are sufficient numbers of our maps with such enormous "no-go" zones for non jumping mechs that gameplay devolves into those non-jumpers being limited to various chokepoints.

An obvious example of this is Canyons, but it applies to many more maps. River City and Alpine being particularly egregious offenders. This hurts non-jumpers more than jumpers, because while jumping mechs need to save some fuel for landing, that's not particularly difficult or really an issue at all. However, non-jumpers just found their already limited options even more limited than they were before.

Quote

Furthermore, speaking of realistic, damage should scale by weight, not weight-class, and the next step should DEFINITELY be to add screen shake while falling! How it works now is completely unrealistic; Lift is shaky, because rockets! but descent is floating down on an invisible elevator floor?

Damage needn't scale by weight for realism, as those heavier mechs are also the ones with the structural reinforcement to handle it. However, damage is scaling by weight class not for realism but for game design and balance purposes. This ensures that jumping Victors need to be more concerned than jumping Jenners.

Finally, descent is not floating down on an invisible elevator, it's just falling. But here's the thing: you don't shake when you fall unpowered, you just fall. In fact, you follow a very predictable path, and one with very controlled and predictable acceleration. The only time this is not the case is when your mass to surface area is so far different that wind resistance(and such) can impact your flight path noticeably. This is definitely not the case for mechs, being extremely heavy for their size. Mechs would fall like bricks.

So, long story short, a falling mech would indeed have very stable firing... well, at least until it fired =)

[Surmuri]

I've been wondering why it feels like jump jet's have nothing to do with physics.
For example use 25% of your jumps to lift your mech and let it fall, before the mech hits the ground start your jumps. Even you use the whole 75% of your jumps the mech stays on the ground...

http://www.virtualne...-ground-example

[YueFei]

Another unintended consequence of overhauling fall damage to make it more punitive:
It only further encourages the use of pin-point FLD weapon loadouts, because you want to keep your jumps short and shallow.

Imagine trying to do jump-shots with lasers, where you've got to jump higher to get the hang time to fire throughout the 1 second beam duration as you fall. And it's more difficult to burn the jets to cushion your fall on the way down, because if you trigger jets while firing you'll throw off your shot. That's the guy who is going to trash his legs, the guy leaping through the air in to get laser shots in. You know, the guy driving a mech with a weapons loadout and that nobody thinks is overpowered. It's already a disadvantage to have to jump higher and be exposed longer to return fire to get in your laser shot.

Meanwhile jump snipers can continue doing what they're doing, they let off the jets for a split second to shoot, and then re-engage the jets immediately after firing.

I guess if you hate Quickdraws with Large Lasers jumping around shooting people, then harsher fall damage is the way to do it. =/

I would urge PGI to focus *solely* on revamping fall damage so it doesn't hurt Light mechs disproportionately. There is no way they can make the fall damage punitive enough for Heavies / Assaults that it will discourage poptarting, not unless they set the fall threshold so low that mechs falling from waist-height to trash their legs, too. And if they make the fall damage threshold higher than that, then it won't affect jump snipers at all, but it sure as hell will punish jumping laser boats.

Edited by YueFei, 14 June 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[moso]

Sometimes I move so careless, so it looks like a miracle that I survive until confrontation with my first enemy. And falling from 100m in something like Atlas (I refine - it's a 100t piece of steel and other durable materials) and having some scratches on my armour reminds me Super Mario days. Having broken legs after hard landing is fair - careless handling of mech should be punished.

So not sure was it mentioned but why do we have armour damage after hard landings? Applying damage to internal structure is reasoned. For example you have internal structure damage in legs after falling from the medium height, but after falling from considerable height you have additional internal damage in CT. You may even broke one or two legs after extremely hard landing and move according to today game mechanics for legged mech, or even turn into super turret without ability of moving (in the second instance), but having full amount of armour even on legs.
As concerns free-falling acceleration and velocity at the landing there's a quadratic dependence so damage after 100m of free flight isn't twice as large as after 50m.

And will be cool to make real damage after landing on another mech (and adequate collision damage as a melee weapon and to prevent hustle in passes at Terra Therma! ). It's reasonable too, has "historical" evidence and justify new JJ heat mechanic. And would enliven gameplay, of course.

Edited by moso, 14 June 2014 - 05:42 PM.

[Captain Pee Sheets]

First off, this is great: people will now have to actually think about how best to use their jump jets according to something loosely resembling physics, and poptarts will be limited by the amount of leg damage they can afford to sustain. Awesome!

However, one change I would suggest in the implementation is to have fall damage cause damage to the internal leg structure instead of armor. This is ideal for 2 reasons:

1) Seems more "realistic": since the only portion of the leg that's coming into contact with the ground is the soles of the mechs "feet", I have a hard time buying into the notion of any appreciable damage being done to the armor. The structure actually SUPPORTING the mech on the other hand would bear the entire load of the mech upon landing (and mech muscles are essentially made of futuristic plastic, right?).

2) This would provide a very real consequence for poptarting without limiting the ability of said mechs to engaging in grounded combat. For example, I can poptart with my Highlander a couple choice times, and then shift to brawling once my internal structure is weak (but I'll have all of my leg armor)

This change would likely mean the amount of fall damage would need to be reduced (slightly).

Edited by Taktix, 16 June 2014 - 02:28 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Fall damage IS NOT a poptarting nerf - don't be gratitude - its a general inverse jumpjet nerf - it hurt does that have the lowest gain for jump jets at most. (Highlanders)

together with those game levels - with blocking ankle height crates - and holes in the ground - and over proportional heights of buildings, bridges, hills and cliffs - it will become the bane and death of most heavys and assaults - with or without jumpjets - but hey with two modules - "Hill climb" and "fall damage reduction" (again inverse logic) you can - reduce the effects of those "bad" stuff....(i can't say it better fitting - without being complete off and impolite)

[Yokomohoyo]

I know that the intent of the fall damage overhaul is to nerf poptarters but in MechWarrior Online’s fanatical quest to nerf everything into uselessness they are hurting innocent bystanders like brawlers that need to get over the absurd movement nerfs by jumping with absurdly dangerous jump jets that need to be micromanaged to avoid getting killed by jumping to climb a mountain. I don’t mind adding heat to jump jet usage but fall damage by jump jet usage needs to be eliminated by allowing mechs that run out of jump jet fuel to land safely with the aid of their jump jets. It will also help if jump jets could actually jump a useful distance because my brawler has 7 jump jets and it is a nightmare to climb mountains with 7 jump jets sometimes even impossible.

[Reno Blade]

This could add some realism and balancing to the game for JJets and for running off cliffs.

For example you can fall/jump down 10 times before your legs are gone, no matter what class (average).
(e.g. 10 damage times 10 for 100 health)
With the fall damage absorb module, light mechs get 80% reduced damage, that would mean 50 jumps, before the legs are destroyed, right?
(e.g. 2 damage times 50 for same 100 health)

With only 20% (heavy) or 10% (assault) reduction for the bigger boys, they would need to watch their jumping a lot more, use near-full leg armor (instead of 60-70% leg armor) and don't just jump off cliffs without feathering with their JJets.
It would still be possible for an Atlas to jump of to Theta at Frozen City, but he would do this only once and take leg damage for this one jump.

A poptart, that doesn't want his legs crippled would either need the Module (using up a space for other usefull modules like artillery), add more JJets to feather the fall, and up the leg armor.
This limits the available tonnage and therefore nerfs poptarting.
This only works for cover-height that would mean leg damage from poptarting over.

Now about brawlers with JJets...
Don't Jump as high, brawl on the ground (Jump turn is not faster for most mechs anyway), or feather your jets like experts should.
Who uses full thrust for brawling anyway. You get legged by all the shots that hit your legs if you jump too high / too much anyway.

Overall, I'm looking forward the first few people legging themself

[DeathlyEyes]

This will end up hurting the wrong thing just like the Victor torso twist nerf. All that did was hurt brawlers, I gurantee this will hurt players non-poptarts way worse than poptarts. All poptarts need to do is sacrafice a little bit and take an extra jump jet. Most poptart players are only taking 2-3 jump jets as it is now. After this nerf they just need to add another Jump Jet on and use the extra lift to pad their fall.

The best way to deal with poptarting is to make other strategies more viable. Having better routes around the map for brawlers would help them get to the poptarts. Reducing the hill climb limitations would not only help brawlers get into range but also help mechs that are ground bound to snipe better. Changing the way missiles work would help them as well(Give them an accelerating flight path with LOS). Reducing beam duration would make it easier to get lasers on target during the second a mech is out of cover would also do a lot to help the problem.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 20 June 2014 - 04:22 AM.

[l33tworks]

I hope the damage is done to some kind of internal health calculations instead of Leg armour.

Edited by l33tworks, 20 June 2014 - 07:19 AM.

[Tlords]

I have been thinking about poptarting and the advantage mechs with jump jets have over mechs without jump jets. These leads me to believe that any mech which fails to arrest its fall from height needs to suffer major consequences.

From the board game damage as dealt based on weight and height. The calculation was (w) * (h)/10. Height was determined by levels. A level one height was 5 meters. I understand this is mechwarrior not Battletech, but the implicatio remains - falling should hurt.

Based on this a victor which falls from three times its own height would 4*8=32 damage, split between its legs. With Mechwarrior armor values that's 64 damage. 32 to each leg. A spider jumping off of the tallest mountain on Terra Therma or Crimson Straights should not survive the fall if it fails to use its jump jets on the way down.

The human equivalent is standing on top of a basketball backboard and jumping to the ground below. Physics works and it hurts.

[Cimarb]

Tlords, on 20 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

I have been thinking about poptarting and the advantage mechs with jump jets have over mechs without jump jets. These leads me to believe that any mech which fails to arrest its fall from height needs to suffer major consequences.

From the board game damage as dealt based on weight and height. The calculation was (w) * (h)/10. Height was determined by levels. A level one height was 5 meters. I understand this is mechwarrior not Battletech, but the implicatio remains - falling should hurt.

Based on this a victor which falls from three times its own height would 4*8=32 damage, split between its legs. With Mechwarrior armor values that's 64 damage. 32 to each leg. A spider jumping off of the tallest mountain on Terra Therma or Crimson Straights should not survive the fall if it fails to use its jump jets on the way down.

The human equivalent is standing on top of a basketball backboard and jumping to the ground below. Physics works and it hurts.

I agree with you, except for your doubling of the damage. Even though the rate of fire for weapons went up, the damage did not (in general). 32 damage, split between both legs, is plenty of damage per jump, and would make people use their jump jets much more rationally to mitigate that.

[Tlords]

Cimarb,

I'd be ok with that - 32 damage for a full burn jump on a Victor - who does not throttle his way down... maybe they'd put more armor on their legs now.... Great idea. I like it.

Edited by Tlords, 20 June 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

I know there is a mod for fall dmg. Is this outside of the mod?

[Cimarb]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 20 June 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

I know there is a mod for fall dmg. Is this outside of the mod?

Yes, the module is to offset this damage.

[Tlords]

The module would help reduce the damage from the fall - at 10% reduction for assault mech - I'm ok with them taking 28 damage with the module... split between the legs - that's 14 damage...

This would require more skill for jumping and shooting to be effective.

[YueFei]

Yah I'm gonna enjoy limping around in my crippled Centurion after dropping off waist-high ledges a few times.

These are frakking Mechs, dude, not arthritic geriatrics.

If they set fall damage thresholds low enough to hurt poptarts, it's gonna hurt everyone else more, and the poptarts will just feather their descent at the last moment.

Mechs without JJs are gonna trash their legs just running around the map, just like Light mechs who have no JJs do already.

And if they set the fall damage threshold high enough to avoid hurting folks who make big leaps, it won't affect poptarts anyways.

A fall damage overhaul should IN NO WAY be targetted at nerfing poptarts, because there is literally no way they can possibly do it without screwing over everyone else even worse.

The ONLY thing fall damage overhaul should be targetting is to avoid being disproportionately punishing to Light mechs. That's the ONLY thing it should be concerned about addressing.

PGI has already stated that poptarting is a legit tactic that they WILL NOT REMOVE.

[FupDup]

YueFei, on 21 June 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

Yah I'm gonna enjoy limping around in my crippled Centurion after dropping off waist-high ledges a few times.

These are frakking Mechs, dude, not arthritic geriatrics.

If they set fall damage thresholds low enough to hurt poptarts, it's gonna hurt everyone else more, and the poptarts will just feather their descent at the last moment.

Mechs without JJs are gonna trash their legs just running around the map, just like Light mechs who have no JJs do already.

And if they set the fall damage threshold high enough to avoid hurting folks who make big leaps, it won't affect poptarts anyways.

A fall damage overhaul should IN NO WAY be targetted at nerfing poptarts, because there is literally no way they can possibly do it without screwing over everyone else even worse.

The ONLY thing fall damage overhaul should be targetting is to avoid being disproportionately punishing to Light mechs. That's the ONLY thing it should be concerned about addressing.

PGI has already stated that poptarting is a legit tactic that they WILL NOT REMOVE.

Paul's Nerfgun strikes again!

[Yokomohoyo]

Reno Blade, on 20 June 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

Now about brawlers with JJets...
Don't Jump as high, brawl on the ground (Jump turn is not faster for most mechs anyway), or feather your jets like experts should.
Who uses full thrust for brawling anyway. You get legged by all the shots that hit your legs if you jump too high / too much anyway.

You obviously don’t have a clue as to what a jump jet is used for in brawling, which is to jump as high as you can to overcome the abusive sensor nerf to see the enemies that your useless sensor won’t detect so you won’t get instantly killed by charging the only mech that appears in your sensor or in your line of sight but has 11 mechs hidden besides him.

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 20 June 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

The best way to deal with poptarting is to make other strategies more viable. Having better routes around the map for brawlers would help them get to the poptarts. Reducing the hill climb limitations would not only help brawlers get into range but also help mechs that are ground bound to snipe better. Changing the way missiles work would help them as well(Give them an accelerating flight path with LOS). Reducing beam duration would make it easier to get lasers on target during the second a mech is out of cover would also do a lot to help the problem.

Finally someone with logic and reason that has a viable solution to the problem but unfortunately doesn’t know what the problem is, which is that poptarting bypasses the most abusive nerfs in MechWarrior Online, which are sensors and movement, while at the same time exploiting those abusive nerfs. MechWarrior Online has a Null Signature System effect plus ECM invisibility so the useless sensors won’t detect enemy mechs unless they don’t have ECM coverage and are in line on sight of someone but with poptarting you can just jump in the air and see the mechs that your useless sensors can’t detect. The movement nerfs of MechWarrior Online can slow down or even stop a brawling mech that needs to get as close as he can to the target as fast as he can to be able to take out the enemy mech by doing more damage at a shorter range. With poptarting you don’t need to rush the enemy, you just jump in the air and fire at any mech you see within the range of your extreme range ER PPC since they can bypass the abusive heat nerf of ER PPC, ghost heat and ballistics/missile ammo nerf of 1.5x ammo vs 2x armor and internal structure (BattleTech). The AC/2 & UAC/5 which were the only weapons capable of stopping poptarters because of their fast fire rate and longer range have now been nerfed with a shorter range. The only other extreme range weapon is the Ghost Rifle that has been nerfed into uselessness with a firing delay nerf that makes it incapable of hitting poptarters. Poptarting makes LRMs useless by exploiting the sensors nerf that makes LRMs loose target when the poptarter returns to cover making the LRMs lose line of sight and target lock. The problem with poptarting was created by the sensors, movement, ACs, Ghost Rifle, ammo, heat and ER PPC nerfs and now they want to nerf jump jets which is the only viable solution to poptarting because it bypasses sensors and movement nerfs.

Tlords, on 20 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

From the board game damage as dealt based on weight and height. The calculation was (w) * (h)/10. Height was determined by levels. A level one height was 5 meters. I understand this is mechwarrior not Battletech, but the implicatio remains - falling should hurt.

You are leaving out a very important part which is that in BattleTech you didn’t take fall damage for using your jump jets unless it was a Death from Above attack plus you didn’t need to micro manage jump jets.


In conclusion with the abusive sensors and movement nerfs in MechWarrior Online it is a fiasco to nerf the only viable solution to those nerfs, because it creates a feeling of useless low tech by having to micromanage so many things that a computer should be able to do like using jump jets without having to micromanage them to avoid damage. To my knowledge there are no other shooters with movement nerfs that can stop you in the middle of a charge and all other futuristic high tech shooters that I know of have some amazing sensors like in Star Citizen.

Edited by Yokomohoyo, 24 June 2014 - 12:30 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Not sure I understand how Mr. Schmidt is describing it, as I read it, here are 2 examples of Lights.

Using Example Numbers:
Locust max Leg armor 16 + Health (Internals?) 8 = 24 total Locust Leg Value.
24 x 1% (percentage for Lights) = 0.24
Fall Speed Variable for over 1 second air time between 1 (30 ft/s) to 1.4 (60 ft/s).
0.24 x 1 = 0.24
0.24 x 1.4 = 0.336
Possible Example Locust Fall Damage Range 0.24-0.336, better than before at 0.3-0.5 for everyone.

At the highest end of Lights:
35 tonner max Leg armor 32 + Health (Internals?) 16 = 48 total Leg Value.
48 x 1% (percentage for Lights) = 0.48
Fall Speed Variable for over 1 second air time between 1 (30ft/s) to 1.4 (60 ft/s).
0.48 x 1 = 0.48
0.48 x 1.4 = 0.672
Possible Example 35 tonner Fall Damage Range 0.48-0.672, worse than before.

My values do not reach his numbers for Lights of

Quote

• Light: minDmg = [0.67] / maxDmg = [0.938]

So I think something is missing from the equation/description.

Edited by Merchant, 24 June 2014 - 09:03 AM.