49 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

You will have to forgive me I am a founder who was told Role Warfare will be a thing. Now that the % counter is in and the times that I play which are sporadic, early, afternoon, morning late, night weekends all the time. I consistently see the assaults and heavies as the most played chasis leaving the lights and mediums down.

My personal answer to that is because damage is so key to advancing C-Bills and XP. Cursious as to what PGI thinks of this and more importantly what they will do about it.

[Sephlock]

The role of mediums is to serve as light pop tarts and cannon fodder.

[AssaultPig]

lights actually make more money than heavies/assaults per the last time they posted stats, probably because lights tend to get more assists. Damage done is actually a relatively small part of overall earnings; I doubt that's what the issue is.

Nobody wants to feel like they're outgunned in a shooter; since tonnage matching is super unrestrictive atm (i.e. a hunchback might get matched against a cataphract or a victor), people choose to drive the heavier mechs so that they won't be on the receiving end.

Edited by AssaultPig, 06 June 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[stjobe]

Darian DelFord, on 06 June 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

You will have to forgive me I am a founder who was told Role Warfare will be a thing. Now that the % counter is in and the times that I play which are sporadic, early, afternoon, morning late, night weekends all the time. I consistently see the assaults and heavies as the most played chasis leaving the lights and mediums down.

My personal answer to that is because damage is so key to advancing C-Bills and XP. Cursious as to what PGI thinks of this and more importantly what they will do about it.

Yes, that is a major part, and PGI will do nothing about it. This is the extent of their abilities; Role warfare is still a pipe dream, and the game is so much worse for it - and as you so correctly note it is a far cry from what we were told it was to become when they asked us for our founder money.

[Agent of Change]

I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with being able to mount the largest amount of pin point convergence front loaded damage often associated with jump jets. Nothing at all to do with Convergence nothing at all.

Nor does it have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with a total lack of viable role warfare, it's definitely not that there is no penalty for taking the biggest thing you got and no significant benefit for taking lighter mechs.

The game is well balanced and there aren't any heat issues to deal with in our system so it can't be because of the amount of heat sinks you can fit to support all the PPFLD.

Nope, no clue. It's gotta be because Assault mechs are just the coolest, I wish some how the other classes of mechs could be cooler.

[Koniving]

Darian DelFord, on 06 June 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

You will have to forgive me I am a founder who was told Role Warfare will be a thing. Now that the % counter is in and the times that I play which are sporadic, early, afternoon, morning late, night weekends all the time. I consistently see the assaults and heavies as the most played chasis leaving the lights and mediums down.

My personal answer to that is because damage is so key to advancing C-Bills and XP. Cursious as to what PGI thinks of this and more importantly what they will do about it.

I personally find it to be the fact that the 'roles' stopped paying. And when niche roles were played they became nerfed. (Jagermech firesupport 4 AC/2 rig. Nerfed with ghost heat. Standard missile boat with huge spread of missiles and long reload times; nerfed with ghost heat...forced to chain fire. Given shorter reload times so they spam more, compromising their position and leading enemies to quickly kill them. Streaks given 100% impossible to dodge mechanics, removing lights from any solo operations such as scouting. Streak in TT is a "will not fire unless it will hit" ammunition conversation method and is not superior or inferior in homing ability than SRMs in TT.)

This also expands into the game modes which have alienated all roles that do not directly involve actively engaging the enemy force (such as playing the objective). Conquest capture times have been expanded to 30 to 45 seconds and only give experience points once. To my knowledge they only pay once if they pay at all. Taking the base in assault has stopped paying.

Please see this related thread, requesting that the objectives matter once again, giving players reasons to NOT camp at the middle of the map, greatly reducing the viability of poptarting, engaging players in actively exploring the maps for new avenues and strategies with which to attack, etc.

Agent of Change, on 06 June 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Nope. It's gotta be because Assault mechs are just the coolest, I wish some how the other classes of mechs could be cooler.

The sarcasm is strong with this one.

[Willard Phule]

I don't know about anyone else, but my most played 'mech is a 'phract 3D I have set up to be quick so I can spot.

Nowadays, Lights and Mediums simply don't scout ahead of the group or lock targets for LRMs. They're all built along some kind of sniper build...more often than not, imitating the meta as best it can. Can't say as I blame them...there's no incentive for them to sacrifice themselves on the other team's LRM boats and poptarts.

Most times, noone knows where the enemy is until the Heavies and Assaults make contact...and, even then, it's painfully slow as they all stop, zoom in and try to be some kind of 1-shot, 1-kill sniper. It's pretty lame.

[Koniving]

stjobe, on 06 June 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Yes, that is a major part, and PGI will do nothing about it. This is the extent of their abilities; Role warfare is still a pipe dream, and the game is so much worse for it - and as you so correctly note it is a far cry from what we were told it was to become when they asked us for our founder money.

This is why I sincerely believe something akin to the Armor Concept would be helpful.

What kept a Jagermech to its role? Its armor. What made the Awesome...awesome? The fact that it had armor that rivals some mechs in the 85 and 90 ton categories. What was it that made people not be impressed with the Victor -- a generic mech? The fact that some 65 and 60 ton mechs clearly outclassed it in armor.

Why was the Raven 4X a brawling scout? It had more armor than most Shadowhawks. (Seriously look at the stock values). What made the Shadowhawk a recon mech? Quite clearly the armor. What was it that made the Hunchback so impressive? It had the armor of a Catapult C1 and immense firepower to make up for its lack of speed.

What made the Centurion AL superior to the Hunchback? It was the only Centurion to blatantly outclass the Hunchback in armor.

What was it that made a Locust viable? It had identical armor to half the Commandos, 2 out of 3 of the available Jenners, and as much or more armor than most of the Cicadas while outclassing MOST of those mechs in speed by over 32 kph.

Now a Cicada matched the Locust in speed, and what it didn't have in armor it had in structural health (it did take more damage because its frame was much stronger) and in firepower.

What made the Cataphract 4x more preferable to the Davions than their own Cataphract 3D design despite the incredibly inferior speed and (lore-wise, not TT-wise) damage spread of autocannons? Quite simply the armor. The 4X is listed as having more tonnage (14 tons) in armor than can possibly be applied in armor points in TT and MWO. Meanwhile the Cataphract 3D is only 1 ton more armor (at 11 tons) than a Hunchback or Catapult C-1 (at 10 tons).

What would make players choose a Kintaro over a Griffin when the Griffin can do the same thing but also jump? The Kintaros all have superior armor values. Two mechs, similar potential roles. One has better agility in maps by jumping. The other has superior armor values.

Why was the Dragon considered a brawler when in MWO it can't brawl? Only part of it has to do with hit boxes. The other part is that they are typically more armored than most 50, 55, 60, 65 ton battlemechs. The Dragon 1-C specifically outclasses some 70, some 75, some 80, and even some 85 ton battlemechs. Some of them are already in the game. The Dragon 1-C outclasses some Stalkers in armor! It really does, just stock.

Why would you pick a Dragon over the clearly superior Quickdraw? Armor.

Why pick a Thunderbolt over a Jagermech or Catapult? Armor.

Why would you want to play an Urbanmech when a Spider outclasses it in speed and agility? Armor! The Urbanmech has identical armor to the 65 ton Jagermech JM6-S.

Armor is one thing that would really define role warfare in this game.

(Added more examples).
(Fixed some missing letters).
(A post somewhere below this one has some brief explanations as to what the armor concept is and does).

Edited by Koniving, 06 June 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[Silentium]

A lot of dudes drop in their medium/light the first time and get insta-ganked, then say "**** it" and join the fattie fun times. Light pilots LOVE driving lights, because there really isn't any other incentive.

[EyeOne]

Because piloting lights and mediums is harder.

[OneEyed Jack]

Koniving, on 06 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

I personally find it to be the fact that the 'roles' stopped paying.

Nah.

There were no more "roles" in the early game than now, but people played more Lights and Mediums, and without being press-ganged into it. But they also knew they weren't screwing their team (and chance of winning) by doing it.

Koniving, on 06 June 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

*snip for length*
Armor is one thing that would really define role warfare in this game.

Not that it will ever happen, but that's actually a really good idea. Armor limits the same way engines are limited would really go a long way toward differentiating chassis. It would be completely impractical with the pinpoint FLD system, since lower-armored mechs would actually become unusable. And most likely neither will ever see a significant change after this long, but it could have been really great.

[CDLord HHGD]

Agent of Change, on 06 June 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with being able to mount the largest amount of pin point convergence front loaded damage often associated with jump jets. Nothing at all to do with Convergence nothing at all.

Nor does it have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with a total lack of viable role warfare, it's definitely not that there is no penalty for taking the biggest thing you got and no significant benefit for taking lighter mechs.

The game is well balanced and there aren't any heat issues to deal with in our system so it can't be because of the amount of heat sinks you can fit to support all the PPFLD.

Nope, no clue. It's gotta be because Assault mechs are just the coolest, I wish some how the other classes of mechs could be cooler.

Q.F.T.

[Deathlike]

Well, clearly few people play lights (*insert 0% Lights in queue pic*).

I have seen during the recent (non-team) tourney where Heavies and Assaults (not simultaneously though) were 40%+ in the queue.

Take your sweet time figuring that out.

[darkkterror]

Guns. Lots of guns.

[Rogue Jedi]

I enjoy playing fast mechs, preferably also with JumpJets, my most played mechs are probably the Firestarters, Jenners, Spiders and Cicadas. however I usually earn more in e.g. a duel Gauss Jagermech, or AS7-D-DC.

some of the legitimate light mech roles are not viable, e.g. running off on your own to scout is suicide unless you have an ECM, holding TAG on an enemy mech will get you shot at, and is extremely hard to do when moving fast. the only roles which usually pay off for a light are harasser, providing ECM support (but only because the enemy will shoot at the bigger mechs first allowing you to accumulate reasonable damage) and Narcing the enemy (provided their are LRMs on your team).

lights are fun and can earn good money if done right and you get lucky, however if you are not both skilled and lucky(if the enemy do not have light hunters or pilots who know how to kill lights) lights will provide minimal return compared to heavier mechs.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 06 June 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[Koniving]

OneEyed Jack, on 06 June 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Not that it will ever happen, but that's actually a really good idea. Armor limits the same way engines are limited would really go a long way toward differentiating chassis. It would be completely impractical with the pinpoint FLD system, since lower-armored mechs would actually become unusable. And most likely neither will ever see a significant change after this long, but it could have been really great.

You might be surprised as it is being tested against FLD (by me and several other enthusiasts on it). There's a reason it would work and it's because of the "new max" part of the concept and certain other quirks. So far even the Jagermech can still brawl with its lowest armored variant at its 'set' armor max. But that is hard!

The running concept right now doesn't use percentages (so light mechs aren't screwed and assaults aren't unstoppable tanks). Instead it uses a global modifier.

More details.

Spoiler

In TT, a ton of armor is 16 points and a ton of ferro armor is 18 points.
In MWO a ton of armor is 32 points and a ton of ferro is 35.84 points (kinda screwy).

The concept is pretty basic and I actually am testing it in MWO by making builds with said armor allotments.
But what does it do? asks some random reader...
Welp fixing Ferro to be 18 *2 = 36 is step 1.
This means the Huginn (Raven hero mech) goes from 232 points of Ferro armor at 6.444444444444444 tons to 234 points of Ferro armor (Raven 4X-level) at 6.5 tons.
This way if you remove it but keep 6.5 tons, you have 208 points of armor (Raven 2x).

This is preluding you into the reasoning that the concept uses the word "armor tonnage" instead of "armor points." Essentially it opens the door to allow Ferro armor to give you more armor (at the cost of its slots).

So that's just one aspect. If you slap on Ferro, you get a higher armor maximum.

Wait, what limits it?

Quite simply the allotted tonnage you can have in armor.

What is the allotted tonnage?
Stock armor in tonnage (regardless of type) + 3 tons = new max allowed.

Example: Stock Raven 2x is 208 points of armor (6.5 tons. + 3 tons = 9.5 is the new max).
Becomes 304 points standard for the Raven 2x's new max (9.5 tons). But that's almost 1/3rd of the mech's weight. It's gonna drop something to make full use of that.
In Ferro armor, 9.5 tons is 342 points. But now you lost equipment slots and you did not save any weight.

Take the Huginn, and you have identical values either way.

Wait, so if the lights get 3 tons and the assaults get 3 tons, won't that make lights invincible?

Nope. Here's why. Every mech's values is set purely by stock. Adding 3 tons to all mechs is 'stock enhanced'. But if a mech is 80 points superior to another mech stock, at the new max it will be 80 points superior. Even if both mechs add ferro, it will still be 80 points superior. No matter what, "this mech" has better armor than "that mech". Add to this that an assault mech can slap on 3 tons like a bandaid. No problem at all. The light mech? It has to choose between speed or firepower to sacrifice to fully use that armor; especially the heaviest armored lights. You'll start seeing 'turtle' lights and 'glass mice'.

Kinda sounds cool but... Wait...what about Hardened Armor?
Thought ahead! In TT 8 points of heavy armor weighs twice as much but gives twice as much protection. It's basically double talk, as 1 ton (8 points) heavy = the protection of 2 tons (32 points) standard TT = 2 tons (64 points) standard MWO. In their way it lets you double the points in 'hardness' only by doubling the value of each individual point while working within the point system.

Here we're working within the tonnage system, so we blatantly give you double the points per ton instead of the double speak. It comes at the cost of slots and mobility (reducing both speed and range of velocity, twist, arm speed, as well as making it easier to trip or be knocked over when those come into gameplay again).

So from the sound of it, Most mechs ultimately are gaining armor above their current maxes? But some mechs will be hurt by this.

That's right. Even the Locust with 1 ton (32 points) of stock armor is getting a gain (only when switching to Ferro, though) above what they can currently equip. That particular Locust stocked the heaviest weapons of all the Locusts. When fully tricked out, it'll still carry the biggest weapons of any Locust. Meanwhile, there is only one mech that won't surpass it's weightclass's currently allowed armor values, the Jagermech. However in terms of direct firepower, it is by far the most powerful Inner Sphere mech that can be built in MWO. Its Jagermech A variant falls short of the current max by 26 points and that's it.

So, wait.. If a Locust, Commando 2-D, Jenner D, and a Cicada 2A all have equal armor, why would I want a Cicada?
Structural health.
It's found by current max in MWO divided by 2 (or TT max * 2) + 6.
Locust: (20 ton mech) 75 structure.
Commando: (25 ton mech) 95 structure.
Jenner: (35 ton mech) 123 structure.
Cicada: (40 ton mech) 143 structure.

It's extremely detailed and well thought out to the foresight of being 100% compatible with armors up to the 3100s. Yet the actual rule is simply "Variant stock armor tonnage + set tonnage = new stock armor"

Edited by Koniving, 06 June 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[Octavian]

It's a mental thing.

Look at MekWars servers, the people who run Assault centric armies vastly outnumber people who run other comps (unless there is a vastly compelling reason not to). People tend to flock to the factions that have Assault centric buildtables as well, even if they claim they like the fluff etc. And this (despite many a forum rant) is not because Assault mechs are better, it is because of the same reason people drive jacked up trucks that never leave pavement: it's the whole bigger is better mentality. You will actually see that non-American players have a higher percentage of preferring light/medium comps.

[StandingInFire]

I pilot mainly assaults (90%), simply because I like having lots of guns, of all types, I want to be able to kill people far away or close by and all the pew pew.

My ideal dream mech (don't know if any mech will have hardpoints like this but I know it has to be clan, 100 tons, not have endo or ferro [needs the crit slots], I do hope there is one) would have 2 LRM 20s, 2 UAC20s [chain fired of course for the dakka dakka], and some lasers to boot at preferably ~60kmh+, then I would never pilot any other mech ever again.

p.s. if any of you know a mech like that let me know so I can drool over it.

[Screech]

Going out and "getting locks" generally involves dodging 7-8 30pt alphas ever couple seconds while rest of the team admires their collective 800 tons. Not always but mostly. Why UAV has become mandatory.

[Sephlock]

Screech, on 06 June 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

Going out and "getting locks" generally involves dodging 7-8 30pt alphas ever couple seconds while rest of the team admires their collective 800 tons. Not always but mostly. Why UAV has become mandatory.

Please tell me you always run UAV. The game needs more people like you.

---

Purely as an aside, what is with the smaller version of the Smoke Jaguar logo? When I am on the main forums and I see the icon (say, when a Smoke Jaguar made the last post in a thread), it looks like the kitty just got spayed.