517 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Martis Gradivus, on 07 June 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Before you guys just have a cow, the Targeting Computers increase in projectile speed is just a way to "simulate" the capabilities of that system to make fire more accurate.

It's implausible and stupid. Enhanced zoom, faster target info gathering and increased sensor range increased the opportunity for accuracy in a plausible way.

There was no need to introduce an implausible increase in muzzle speed and take the game further down the path of arcade shooter.

A far better solution to all of this would have been for all weapons to incur a small amount of reticle drift during Mech movement, when firing or taking fire... which could then have been reduced by adding the superior accuracy of a targeting computer, or mitigated by player skill in firing at the right time, or trading off the accuracy of standing still vs the defensive bonus of moving.

Instead we got the stupid, immersion-breaking easy option of "buff all existing modifiers" - regardless of how implausible some of them are - as is usual from these developers.

Edited by Appogee, 08 June 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Spurowny, on 07 June 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

you are seriously still complaining about ECM?

every mech in the game can carry at least 3 hard counters to ECM
BAP
UAV
TAG and/or NARC

and getting hit by a PPC also disrupts ECM for a few seconds.
the PPC method of disruption is rather effective against an atlas as its slow speed makes it an easy target.

Have you not played the game in the last 4 months or something?


ECM ain't no thang.

Let's evaluate these claims.

ECM is a 1.5 ton 2 slot component that requires no user input to function. Its benefits are immense, making you invisible to sensors at medium-long range. It prevents or slows down locks from LRM boats while it is functioning, and basically nullifies the effects of most LRM assist equipment and upgrades. It requires absolutely no user input to use and is almost entirely passive in its usage. As an added bonus, it completely disables locks within 180m, protecting the mech against streaks and wreaking merry hell on any LRM boats that happen to be nearby.

Now let's evaluate it's counters:

BAP: Only a hard counter within 150 meters. This means that it only really works as a hard counter if you're a streakboat or if you're an LRM boat and your spotter is carrying BAP and is near your target, which is extremely dangerous for your spotter. It does provide soft counters against ECM by extending your sensor range and allowing you to target ECM mechs farther than you otherwise could. It also prevents a single ECM mech from neutralizing an LRM boat by just standing next to it, though that ECM mech could easily fix this by just standing 150-180m away. It's totally passive though, so it requires no input and no thought to really use, so it's on par with ECM in that respect.

TAG: This merely allows a single mech under an ECM bubble to be targetable by LRMs. It doesn't eliminate the effect of ECM and any other mechs under the bubble will still be protected. This also requires LOS to the target, requires the user aim the laser at the target and maintain facing (and thus prevent torso twisting and use of cover to maintain effectiveness), and produces a visible red laser beam that leads back to him, inviting retribution from anyone paying attention. This mandatory for LRM carriers to use, as it is the bare minimum level of tech you need in order to ensure your weapons are not rendered useless by a single mech. It also takes up an energy hardpoint, which reduces your ability to protect yourself up close.

UAV: This is a useful thing to have overall, but I don't consider it a particularly great ECM counter. Sure it reveals enemy units and cuts through the ECM bubble, but it only lasts 1 minute (upgraded) and only has a radius of 300m. It requires the UAV carrier to be positioned near the enemy to deploy the UAV, and the UAV can be shot down very easily by anyone with arm weapons who is paying attention. It might work in a brawl, but you'll probably have other ECM counters in play by then. It also costs 40k a pop to use, has to be re-purchased after a round, and takes up a module slot. ECM costs 400k but is yours until you sell it.

PPC: Not a hard counter, as it requires LOS, aiming at the target, and only disables ECM for a few seconds. You also have to use it on the ECM carrier for it to have its anti-ECM effect. This is really only useful against D-DCs, as you're probably not going to land PPC shots to ECM lights with any real consistency

NARC: Now this is actually a pretty effective ECM counter now, but like with most of the other counters it takes far more effort and brainpower to use than ECM. It also weighs a minimum of 4 tons, takes up a missile hardpoint, and occupies 3 slots on your mech, with 2 slots for the launcher and one for the ammo. It requires you to get within 450m of your target and requires you to lead with a relatively slow projectile. It also requires you to hit the ECM carrier(s) in order to completely remove ECM's benefits from the enemy team, though whoever you hit is going to have a pretty rough 30 seconds if he can't find adequate cover. Still, 4 tons is a huge investment for a light mech, which is about the only thing that will bother to carry these.



ECM isn't nearly the broken overpowered god-machine it was on its debut, but it's still a no-brainer on any mech that can carry one. It also tends to be carried by the mech variants that absolutely didn't need the help. The D-DC was already one of the better Atlases. With ECM, it became THE Atlas. The SDR-5D already had a superior hardpoint layout compared to the other Spiders. The RVN-3L already had the best hardpoints, most modules, and fastest speed of the Ravens, though that's more a matter of PGI giving the other Raven's really crappy hardpoints and quirks, since the 3L was supposed to have ECM.

ECM is still problematic because it provides massive benefits to mech variants that reaaaaally don't need them, requires little thought to use, and provides benefits that are way out of proportion to its cost. Its counters require much more effort from the user to use effectively, and tend to cost more to carry. If you could fit ECM in every one of your mechs, you would probably put it in most of them, would you not? Don't tell me you wouldn't, because you'd be lying.

[LegoPirate]

good info, however i have a question:

can we equip say a mk1 tc on a masakari or a mk7 on a puma? basically can we put whatever size tc we want in a mech rather then sticking with the one that fits canonically. its implied but not explicitly stated.

Edited by LegoPirate, 08 June 2014 - 12:28 AM.

[Asatur]

Computers can increase projectile speed... It's new idea even for fantastic universe.

[Redshift2k5]

LegoPirate, on 08 June 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

good info, however i have a question:

can we equip say a mk1 tc on a masakari or a mk7 on a puma? basically can we put whatever size tc we want in a mech rather then sticking with the one that fits canonically. its implied but not explicitly stated.

It looks like any size you want, not limited to mech or weapons loaded. Pick whatever size bonus you want and can afford tonnage for.

[Spurowny]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 June 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

Let's evaluate these claims.

~snip~

ECM isn't nearly the broken overpowered god-machine it was on its debut, but it's still a no-brainer on any mech that can carry one. It also tends to be carried by the mech variants that absolutely didn't need the help. The D-DC was already one of the better Atlases. With ECM, it became THE Atlas. The SDR-5D already had a superior hardpoint layout compared to the other Spiders. The RVN-3L already had the best hardpoints, most modules, and fastest speed of the Ravens, though that's more a matter of PGI giving the other Raven's really crappy hardpoints and quirks, since the 3L was supposed to have ECM.

ECM is still problematic because it provides massive benefits to mech variants that reaaaaally don't need them, requires little thought to use, and provides benefits that are way out of proportion to its cost. Its counters require much more effort from the user to use effectively, and tend to cost more to carry. If you could fit ECM in every one of your mechs, you would probably put it in most of them, would you not? Don't tell me you wouldn't, because you'd be lying.

Everything you say in this post is absolutely correct

The ECM Variant is always the best variant of the chassis that have an ECM variant. but those chassis themselves are all deficient in some way to other chassis of the same class.

Spiders have very limited weapon hardpoints
Ravens have no jump jets
Commandos have no jump-jets and low armor

those chassis are at a distinct disadvantage against Jenners and Firestarters

the Cicada-3m is basically a Jenner-F that traded its jump jets for an ECM and a bigger profile.

The Atlas... is badass. but not by any means OP. Its massive armor and ECM are countered by it having fewer weapon hardpoints and slower speeds then most other assault mechs, the Banshee especially massively outguns the Atlas

when only comparing variants within a specific chassis there is almost always a "best" variant, or if not a best there is usually a worst variant (Jenner-K or whichever stalker it is that has 2 fewer hardpoints then all the others)


but this is all off topic.

Targeting computer looks interesting, I'm in the camp that likes the idea of increased velocity as a means to simulate better accuracy. want to see how it actually plays though.

command console is a bit disappointing.
I always had grand visions of a 13th group member whose sole job was to command through an advanced version of the battlemap. I always figured that was too ambitious but that's what the imagination does when given two years to wonder.
what you have posted plus a module slot or two seems fair.

[Blue Boutique]

The Command Console needs something to simulate its TT function other than a targeting computer clone.

I) The mech equipped with the following modules can share with the lance when equipped with a command console; weapons ranges, seismic sensor, target decay, 360 target retention, target info gathering, sensor range.

II) The console stores data from scanned enemy mechs and the lance can instantly aquire the data as long as the mech equipped the CC is alive. Instant target data acquisition on scanned mechs.

Edited by Blue Boutique, 08 June 2014 - 01:10 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Targeting computer:
The investment/profit for the TC is good. Better accuracy and crit is perfectly fine for such tonnage.
The immersion factor,... I'm not sure, but I don't mind really.
Space magic, isn't it?

Now the CC lacks something for the team/lance.
Why not provide team bonus to lock on times and target info gathering time (stack with artemis, Tag and C3 later on) ?
Or share module effects such as seismic. (Blue beat me to it...)
You could even gain effects of your lance mate's modules instead, but there needs something for your lance!

Using a CC and providing your team with data from your scouts is part of the commanders job.

[Logi]

CC sounds good to me, but i see some problems with the TC. first, how can a targeting system increase the projectile speed? this sounds just odd to me. the mayor problem is see is the increased the crit chance. i guess lots of ppl will be running with TC as pure critseekers. after stripping enemy from armor, they will go for crits. so ac2 dakka revival

[ZachMan119]

Lucity, on 07 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

I'm glad we finally see a use for the Command Console, i don't have an issue with it as long as it stacks with bap etc.

I know, me too.

[The Great Unwashed]

The size and weight of the targeting computer makes it look like WWII equipment when computers were mechanical. But for balance I suppose it's ok...

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 08 June 2014 - 01:25 AM.

[Eddrick]

Ok? Targeting Computer and Command Console are going to basically be a buffed BAP. I think the effects will stack with BAP.

[Magos Titanicus]

nice nice niiiiiiiiiceeeeee!!!!

[Judge Redeemer]

But thats not the point of CC!

"The enhanced command and control facilities turn the 'Mech carrying a Command Console into a moving command center typically used by high-level commanders."

It shouldnt be BAP on steroides
Its slightly pointelss...

[Lily from animove]

Can mechs without atargeting computer still equip one? I caoudl QQ my Nova not having one.additional beam range and lower aquisition time is great.

[Natasha Radick]

After reading through previous postings and being new, even I expected much more from an item that's been in game for years but has had no function.

I expected the targeting computer to introduce a jet fighter like lead system as mentioned before, and have one computer control energy weapons and another for ballistics. Not have silly little added buffs and decreases in information gathering. My module does that just fine thank you.

I don't know enough about the Command Console to begin with, but after reading about it on Sarna I can say that it is a major let down in what you are introducing as a developer and it bears no resemblance to what Inner Sphere Commanders actually used.

[Rubidiy]

Well, one thing is for sure: Targeting Computer won't be functioning like in MW3 or WarThunder. That's a relief.
Looks like using TC will be just an option, which is also a relief.
Regarding bonuses, these pieces of equipment provide: TIG bonus is tempting but it's hardly worth of required tonnage.

[Demuder]

So, the Command Console is a... Targeting Computer ?

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Vassago Rain, on 07 June 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

The atlas III has even more advanced gear, like angel ECM.

In case you didn't know, the spider 5D doesn't have ECM in CBT, either, but it still has it in this game, because so many of its other variants do, but as those are not in the game, it was chosen as the ECM carrier.

Atlas III is almost 100 years in the future from the time this game takes place. Likewise Angel ECM doesn't exist yet, so the stealth cloaking device we have in the game right now shouldn't either. I'd be happy to see the Spider lose its cloak as well in exchange for a couple more hardpoints (the whole idea of hardpoints being PGI's creation as well).

Or you know, every mech could just be allowed to mount ECM the way they can mount BAP or NARC if they have a missile tube. But that would be too logical and dangerous a solution for an overpowered piece of equipment PGI still doesn't quite know what to do with (notice no Clan mechs are coming with it....).

At the end of the day I still chalk up PGI's purely arbitrary decision to give ECM to the Atlas as mainly a sop to core players (especially Legendary founders) who in 2012 bought an Atlas on the clear but unspoken expectation their purchase would be pay to win and give them a leg up. The Atlas being the top tier founder's mech and the ultimate grind in the game at the time as well.

Based on that I expect the Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf to get ECM any day now as well.

P.S. They didn't for example give ECM to the Awesome even though that mech frame needed it far more. There was a variant of the Awesome in the cartoon series piloted by Adam Steiner with a command couch providing just as much logical rationale for it to get an ECM suite. But then nobody ever bought an Awesome expecting it to be pay to win.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 08 June 2014 - 02:42 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Here is an idea ... how about let the command console do soemthing that influences COMMAND not just some crappy bonuses to sensors.

Have some imagination PGI ... the command console has been doing NOTHING for how long? Years now? and this is the best you can do?

I am not impressed.