458 replies to this topic

[CeeKay Boques]

Oh boy! Info!

[101011]

Mcgral18, on 08 June 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Nope, but I imagine overwhelming firepower will beat precise firepwer, when it gets close.

We will see. The WubShee certainly beats meta when it gets close, and my proposed Nova is actually more powerful than it, along with a low heat alternative.


But a team of meta will probably win. Hence why teamwork is OP.

Wait, so...the Clan's indiscriminate brute force will beat out the Inner Sphere's precision weaponry....

GaiDaigoji, on 08 June 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

People tend to forget that with the heat dissipation bonuses, you basically are getting your 2.0 DHS. Of course, people still complain, so if they gave the true 2.0 DHS, then they should implement the true heat scale as well and guess what, PGI did a pretty good job going with Solaris VII rules, so if the true heat scale, to hit modifiers, and shutdown chances were in place, everyone would be chain firing and the matches would go a lot more slowly. Of course, they would also need to reduce ammo amounts back down since that was one of the key balances to missiles and autocannons. And then what about Clan rules of engagement? That would mean no pop tarting because that's not an honorable way to fight.

*ahem*http://www.sarna.net...lan_Ghost_Bear)

PhoenixFire55, on 09 June 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

Everything my dear boy/girl has its price. The fact that you were freely given a mech that would have cost 25m c-bills for somebody that isn't part of your society, doesn't negate this. The price was paid in other forms, such as the labour of workers who mined the metals, or scientists who designed the mech, or engineers who build it. Your society has paid the price for you. Without this society you are nothing. Do you have such a society in MWO where somebody gives you mechs and equipment for free? I might look ... to you, but you in turn are simply nothing.

You do not seem to have much of a grasp on Clan society. The trueborn MechWarrior is the elite of the elite, superior to anyone else in the Clan. It is only right that we are given free stuff, quiaff?

[Felio]

It should have been one gauss rifle at a time. Thirty instant damage to a single location is very not-fun. I think it's also an inconsistency with the principles of where ghost heat limits were set.

If a single gauss rifle is too weak, that's a separate problem that should be dealt with separately. Two is too ganktastic. Even if dual gauss mechs aren't topping the charts and winning all the matches, what they do detracts from the fun of the game.

[Koniving]

Trauglodyte, on 09 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

No offense, Koniving, and I've said this several times before but PGI is planning on using the Clans just like they did the AC2 range nerf. You make a change, let the players test it out on live, and push it towards everything if it works well. It is 100% their history of doing things.

If it's true, then great.
But somehow I'm left with doubt.

[Scratx]

You know, I just realised something.

What happens if you hit a side torso with a cERPPC when its attached arm is gone? Does the splash damage to the arm reflect back onto the side torso, cut in half? (and same for every other case of destroyed components taking splash damage)

Edited by Scratx, 09 June 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[Herpa Derpa]

You can leave the clan weapons almost lore, triple gauss and all , if you simply made all Inner Sphere and Clan interactions a separate que. A que where the Clan is deliberately outnumbered 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 in favor of the innersphere? You know, like Clans bid the lowest forces to invade? Like the FREAKING LORE? Have Clan vs Clan 12 v 12 stuff and IS vs IS 12 v 12 stuff SEPARATE QUES (like it is now).

Or you can be ******** and worry about balancing 12 clan vs 12 IS and forget the lore and encourage people to ***** about the changing meta of 12 v 12. MAKE A NEW META NOOBS OMG !!!!

Im worried about anyone at PGI having a pulse.. geez

Edited by Herpa Derpa, 09 June 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[Cimarb]

JohnnyWayne, on 09 June 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

UAC fires a stream of projectiles.

LBX slug mode fires one projectile.

They don't work that way. Clan LBX in slug mode fires in bursts, not a single projectile.

The difference between CLBX in slug mode and the actual CUAC is that the CUAC can be double-tapped to increase rate of fire.

[wanderer]

Herpa Derpa, on 09 June 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

Im worried about anyone at PGI having a pulse.. geez

But if they split the queues, how could they get every PUG to buy into their CLEARLY AWESOME CLAN PACKAGES?

(Gold sometimes included)

[JohnnyWayne]

Cimarb, on 09 June 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

They don't work that way. Clan LBX in slug mode fires in bursts, not a single projectile.

The difference between CLBX in slug mode and the actual CUAC is that the CUAC can be double-tapped to increase rate of fire.

Well I heard differently. Thats also the reason why we get clan auto canons and not lbx only.

If they do it differently then they have destoryed the only argument that could balance clan mechs compared to IS.

Then they totally wrecked them.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 09 June 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[Cimarb]

JohnnyWayne, on 09 June 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Well I heard differently. Thats also the reason why we get clan auto canons and not lbx only.

You may want to actually read the Command Chair post you are responding to. Unlike previous PGI communications, it is actually pretty clear on this subject:

Paul Inouye, on 07 June 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

The Clan LBX Cluster vs Slug Ammunition Selection

As mentioned in the last Dev Vlog, we ran into an issue with the ability to swap ammunition types on the fly while playing the game. This has not changed. For the time being, we have created a one off weapon type that has the exact same characteristics as the LB-X in terms of weight and space requirements but fire slugs with the same characteristics of the Clan Ultra AutoCannon counterparts. For example, the Clan LB 2-X will fire a cluster round totalling 2 damage. The Clan AutoCannon/2 will fire a 2 round volley with each slug doing 1 damage for a total of 2 damage.

Edited by Cimarb, 09 June 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

I thought they would balance clans, not **** them in the woods and leave them for dead.

[Fastwind]

wanderer, on 09 June 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

UAC/10 or LB-10X. You know, ballistic domination like it is now.

Both burst fire (thats not pinpoint accurate),and far heavier.
Still no viable alternative to a IS PPC!

[Cimarb]

JohnnyWayne, on 09 June 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

I thought they would balance clans, not **** them in the woods and leave them for dead.

Feel free to go somewhere else at any time. The unrelenting negativism (and cussing) is tiring, especially when you haven't even played Clans yet...

[Sable Phoenix]

Paul Inouye, on 07 June 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

Feedback on the Clan and IS Weapon Update can go here.

The Clan LBX Cluster vs Slug Ammunition Selection

As mentioned in the last Dev Vlog, we ran into an issue with the ability to swap ammunition types on the fly while playing the game. This has not changed. For the time being, we have created a one off weapon type that has the exact same characteristics as the LB-X in terms of weight and space requirements but fire slugs with the same characteristics of the Clan Ultra AutoCannon counterparts. For example, the Clan LB 2-X will fire a cluster round totalling 2 damage. The Clan AutoCannon/2 will fire a 2 round volley with each slug doing 1 damage for a total of 2 damage. Players will have to make the choice as to which weapon to equip to their Clan 'Mechs according to the firing style they wish to use. The space and weight of the Clan AutoCannon/2 is the same as the Clan LB 2-X. The range, firing mechanics, damage, etc. are the same as the Clan Ultra AutoCannon/2 (minus the double tap ability). These "Clan AutoCannon/#" weapons will remain in the game until such time that we can get the ammunition switching working.

I'm sorry, no, this is unacceptable.

The whole point of having ammo-switching in LB-X ACs is to allow us to choose between cluster and SLUG fire, NOT between cluster and stream-fired. There is absolutely zero point in including the made-up, stop-gap "Clan AC" unless it fires a single, pinpoint-damage slug.

There is an alternative. If you're going to make Clan non-Ultra ACs fire in stream fire, then you need to convert the IS ACs to stream-fire weapons, like they should have been lore-wise from the start, anyway.

The level of fail here is absolutely mind-boggling.

[Scratx]

Sable Phoenix, on 09 June 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

I'm sorry, no, this is unacceptable.

The whole point of having ammo-switching in LB-X ACs is to allow us to choose between cluster and SLUG fire, NOT between cluster and stream-fired. There is absolutely zero point in including the made-up, stop-gap "Clan AC" unless it fires a single, pinpoint-damage slug.

There is an alternative. If you're going to make Clan non-Ultra ACs fire in stream fire, then you need to convert the IS ACs to stream-fire weapons, like they should have been lore-wise from the start, anyway.

The level of fail here is absolutely mind-boggling.

The key to understand is... "For the time being".

They're going to fix that. And I think you should expect IS ACs to get the clan treatment sooner or later, too.

[Sable Phoenix]

Raigner, on 08 June 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Spoiler

I am very disappointed, and with the TC the CC and the weapons, this whole thing just reeks of poor planning, last minute ideas to throw something up and complete lack of testing. and in the case of the CC shear laziness. i have been fighting the whole clans DOA on arrival since the beginning but this just confirms it for me you guys have no idea what your doing.

You want me to solve your LBX problem? you got the stats right? the weapon coded?good give it 0 weight, 0 crit space cost, and attach it as a ghost weapon to every clan lbs canister shot type, so when they equip on they actually equip 2 AC's one in a phantom slot. Then when you press the toggle fire mode button it just changes the whole gun out. Same effect as switchable ammunition, but a whole lot easier. oh and put a fire prevention script in whatever weapon occupies the phantom AC slot. naturally the autocannon once switched out will weigh noting and take up no space but that's inconsequential once you actually in a match, and it would have to draw from 2 ammo pools for cluster and slug ammo but that's what you are aiming for on this weapon anyways.

Clan PPCs? you already got your mechanic in place. Most clan mechs only come with 2 CERPPC's per stock verrent let them only be able too fire 2 at the same time, and give them there actual values, what are you afraid of? it will barely deliver more damage then a guass rifle but with 15 times the heat generation. this will stop people boating them. as for the warhawk? its supposed to chain fire them anyways. give both clan ERPPCS and the IS ERPPC the same splash mechanic, this will actually give people a reason to use the IS ERPPC over the standard IS PPC. let the clans keep there 15 point core damage, this way you will not be gimping the clans work horse weapon. even at the current rate its going to take around 9 CERPPC hits to the center torso to kill a Battlemaster 10-11 for an Atlas vs the 14-15 shots it will take now.

As for the LRM's fine whatever they don't work and you haven't even started testing, my question is 2 fold if you haven't even started testing then how so you know how these LRMs will preform with no minimum range? you fear a streak 20, i believe the damage will be so spread out over the chassis you wont have to worry. but whatever not working not tested. so my second question what have you been doing? you have 6 months to get these LRMs working and you haven't even started testing them yet?

As for the Targeting Computer and Command Console. you had no idea what these weapons would do till Russ asked you last week did you? because this absolutely reeks of last minute desperation. just stat value adjustments. that's like a days worth of work testing not included. the targeting computer is supposed to change the HUD for clan weapons providing shot vectors more detailed ballistics info the targets direction and velocity and a leading cross hair for more accurate shot placement all things that the cry engine is more then capable of doing.

As for the command console you guys said yourself that that was supposed to provide advanced battlefield orders for commanders get PIP functionally with reconnaissance lances and call in off map artillery and air strikes. something you replaced with consumables. then after 2 and a half years of waiting you intrduce it as the targeting computers gimped little brother? 2 and a half years to make a beagle active probe with double the weight 4 times the price and plus 5% zoom? really? making this the opposite to the targeting computer because the IS has to have something similar in order for it to fill balanced is just lazy and cowardly. and once again tells me that this was just something slapped together.

The clans excelled at dueling and quick fast engagements on a small scale at extreme range, they were renowned for there accuracy so at least the targeting computer keeps to the theme. the Inner Sphere were better then the clans at large scale all out warfare as they have been doing it for 400 years. have the command console keep into the theme of that, have it do something or adjust something that is unique to the IS rather then be a targeting computer with 3/4th of its legs shot out form under it.

I look at all of this and i think you could do better. so much better.

Pretty much all of this.

Scratx, on 09 June 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

The key to understand is... "For the time being".

They're going to fix that. And I think you should expect IS ACs to get the clan treatment sooner or later, too.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I recall them specifically saying they will not be doing that. The IS ACs are and will remain pinpoint slug-throwers, in spite of the lore inaccuracy and the inherent balancing it would lend to the game (just try to pop-tart that AC-5 when it's firing 3 slug bursts).

This decision is purely meant to "balance" the Clans against the Inner Sphere, rather than worrying about the balance of the game as a whole.

Edited by Sable Phoenix, 09 June 2014 - 05:12 PM.

[Gorgo7]

I am very unhappy with the handling of the Clan weapons balancing. In theory that is.
I am committed to my clan package so we will just have to play and see.
But I must say that my enthusiasm has been dampened. That hurts.

[J0anna]

Scratx, on 09 June 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

Yup. Even if demanding a refund because you're not getting the OP Masters of the Universe you wanted isn't cool.

(and am I the only one who thinks a lot of the discussion is almost at the level of horoscopes because we simply don't know how it'll all play out? it's not like weapons alone dictate balance, can't ignore we don't know the exact hardpoint combos we'll be able to pull out and more importantly just how much more survivable clan mechs will be thanks to no death on losing a single side torso...)

[Redacted] Had you played in competitive leagues (or perhaps you do, but have no idea what you are doing or what works) you should have picked up some idea of what works and what does not. Pinpoint damage is greatly superior to spread damage, the best plan is to quickly take down opposing mechs. You can choose to spread your 30 points of damage around or you can do them to one location - which do you think would work better?

Nevermind - you have already shown you cannot figure that one out - here is the answer: pinpoint damage is always preferred. The fact that clan weapons always do spread damage is fine as long as the freebirth weapons on the other side work the same way, but alas they don't. So my 70 ton Cataphract 3D will do 30 points of pinpoint damage (2xPPC's and 2xAC-5's) while my 70 ton Summoner cannot. Maybe that sounds like balance to you - but to people with enough brain power to actually walk and breathe at the same time it appears quite unbalanced....

[wanderer]

Fastwind, on 09 June 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Both burst fire (thats not pinpoint accurate),and far heavier.
Still no viable alternative to a IS PPC!

Or even UAC/5's, actually.

We'll see what we see on IS designs. Poptart, PPC, AC. Or perhaps Gauss. Which is the point. Parity. The same song on different instruments, perhaps- but the same song none the less. If the Clan AC's only fire two-round bursts, a UAC/10 is a bit more spread than a twin IS AC/5, and the lower tonnage and space requirements should neatly compensate for the hotter ER PPC, which is 1 ton and one crit less for roughly 50% more heat and a touch of spread damage that'll still tenderize the CT if you near-miss a bit. UAC/10's match IS AC/5's for range profile, so they'll have similar firing to IS poptarts. They're 10 tons each.

[Mcgral18]

Moenrg, on 09 June 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

No, you are just an unimaginative dolt. Had you played in competitive leagues (or perhaps you do, but have no idea what you are doing or what works) you should have picked up some idea of what works and what does not. Pinpoint damage is greatly superior to spread damage, the best plan is to quickly take down opposing mechs. You can choose to spread your 30 points of damage around or you can do them to one location - which do you think would work better?

Nevermind - you have already shown you cannot figure that one out - here is the answer: pinpoint damage is always preferred. The fact that clan weapons always do spread damage is fine as long as the freebirth weapons on the other side work the same way, but alas they don't. So my 70 ton Cataphract 3D will do 30 points of pinpoint damage (2xPPC's and 2xAC-5's) while my 70 ton Summoner cannot. Maybe that sounds like balance to you - but to people with enough brain power to actually walk and breathe at the same time it appears quite unbalanced....

Correction, pinpoint FLD is better to a point. I know for a fact if the WubShee closes, your PP FLD will never win, because A, I have 25 tons on the CTF along with all the armor that comes with that, and B, you lose 20 PP FLD when I close to 90M. The 95 tonner can fire 52 damage at your 10, and you'll be cored within 10 seconds. Of course, I have to close first.

As for the Thor...That B variant can mount 5 SSRM6s...AKA, 75 damage. 250% of your alpha at 360M. Along with some extra armor, although I'm not sure 5 tons of ammo would be enough...but 1250 damage should suffice for most matches. But I guess that's only two atlai.

There is a point spread damage will overwhelm pinpoint damage. For less random results, you can also go the laser route...and honestly the stock D loadout isn't half bad. 2 ERLL, 2 ERML, 2 MG and an AMS. Remove AMS, CTC add armor and another heatsink or two. But the 34 damage won't overwhelm your CTF until it closes...which is risky.


I'm going to say if we can max armor, the Thor's will actually be half decent...or at least not terrible. SRM18, 2 ERLL, 21 DHS and 3 tons of ammo fit fine, remove 2 DHS and max the armor, you'd still be fine. With a 56 point alpha strike. At the 50 threshold, it doesn't matter if it's spread or not, two of those can remove a leg. Good luck spreading damage after that.

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 June 2014 - 07:35 PM.