458 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

Ronyn, on 08 June 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

With LRM's, it sounds like they are having problems with LRM damage at below 180 meters. If they just remove the damage variable, and decrease the LRM tracking below 180 meters, this would fix the entire problem. Not all 20 LRM's of a 20 rack hit to begin with. I'm sure they'd have to fiddle with it a bit, but nothing in comparison to the damage variable. Anyone who has been playing this game since closed betaa knows that they can easily fiddle with LRM tracking, they've been doing it for years. They just need to do away with the variable all together. LRM's do 1.1 damage each compared to SRM's doing significantly higher damage. The variable is unneeded. Clan LRM's should fire at 0 meters for full damage. But, the only time an entire LRM 20 rack does full damage with 0 range is if you face hug the firer.

The problem (again, I suspect) is one of variable statistics dependent on conditions which are, themselves, variable - and of course being able to account for all of that variability in predictable ways that lead to the desired result.

It's an easy thing to say that, below 180m, you do no damage. Relatively simple from a coding perspective. It's also an easy thing to adjust tracking strength. What you're looking at here are simple statistics that are fixed and do not vary or change state. Even if you technically have different rules between 1000-180m and 180-0m, the result at those distances never changes. But when you have to now compensate for an infinitely variable state between 180-0m, and a second state between 1000-180m that does not change, things get more than a little wonky. Especially with PGI's chosen system for netcode.

[Phlinger]

Ultimatum X, on 08 June 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

While I agree that the Clan weapons shouldn't be overpowered, they do need to remain competitive though.

With everything I have been reading, the clans mechs will be anything but competitive. it seems to me that IS players are going to be laughing at the sheer idiocy of the players who wish to participate in buying a clan pack and a laugh at the players daring enough to bring a Clan mech into a match.

[Mcgral18]

RedDragon, on 08 June 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

The really sad thing is: If you look at the new mechanics that will be implemented for Clans, only those that are already in the game or don't need a lot of work are finished for Clan launch. ER-PPC splash damage already exists (SRM). Gauss dual-fire can't be that hard to code. That leaves LRMs and LB-X which both have a new mechanic, and both do not work yet.

So in short, apart from the new shiny mechs, there hasn't been any serious work since they announced the Clans. My guess is that they didn't even have a final concept until a few weeks ago. That's certainly not how you deliver a product to your paying customers in a game that isn't beta any more.

ERPPC splash is going to be very different than SRM splash. This is damage transfer, which means the splash damage will never be more than 5, or less than 2.5.

With SRM splash, you could have done over 15 damage PER missile. If they reused the code...bad things will happen. RIP light mechs, your hitboxes are too small to handle splash.

[Koniving]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 June 2014 - 01:43 AM, said:

Well, not all the ideas. And not necessarily the good ideas. *sigh*

True, not all the ideas. The armor concept never got thrown in.

• But PPC splash. Once had that. Wasn't the first but it did get mention in a podcast sometime after (by Russ himself, somewhere between NGNG's 34 and 38).
  
• Charge up -- it was actually a firing delay where you tap it and it causes a visual build up around the PPC before it fires. Once had that for PPCs when the splash mechanic was reported with failure. Gauss got it several weeks later (given the delay of 'testing' of two weeks and other things, they had the idea before I pushed for it and clearly already threw it on the Gauss).
  
• 2 shot burst for all AC weapons to reduce pinpoint (2012, shortly before the removal of Delayed Convergence, Koniving; originally conceived as a counter measure for 'firing' while the convergence of your aim was adjusting so that not 100% of the shot was lost due to premature trigger pulling). (Later discovered this was the trick used in Tac-Ops rules to keep roll counts short and allow split-fire on two targets with a single AC; 2014).
  
• Stream fired missiles (anyone and everyone who ever played a mechwarrior game in the past).
  
• Longer beam times (...okay no one ever asked for this in the history of the forums that I recall. But it makes sense for Clan ER lasers to have longer beam times than Inner Sphere).

I could go on.

And true.. Here's some ideas that never got through or implemented.

Spoiler

Engine overhaul (hit detection is bad, mechs are too fast -- PGI keeps making them faster; but the mechs that are supposed to be fast are not. Cicada? Fast as a Locust. Jenner? NOT fast as a Locust. Commando? Fast as a Jenner. Spider? Faster than a Jenner and fast as a Locust. Firestarter? Fast as a Jenner. Raven 3-L? Fast as a Jenner. Other Ravens? Slowest ones in the game -- but combined with armor overhaul, the most armored light mechs currently in MWO. They'd be brawl-capable.)

Armor concept. A simple thing that diversifies the mechs by adding the one artificial limitation that PGI never bothered with. (Seriously,

• PGI put on per variant engine limits -- something that does not exist in TT but was put in because otherwise all mechs would be the same without the insane cost and time consumption of TT's technician and customization system [2+ months to change a Commando 1-B to have 2 medium lasers instead of one large and 3 tons more armor.]
  
• Per variant weapon hardpoints; does not exist in TT [placed in to make up for TT's technician system being left out and to diversify the mechs].
  
• But PGI didn't bother with per variant armor limitations, something that also does not exist in TT... which should have been put in for the same reason.
  
  • Without it, we have meta mechs. Most meta mechs of great engine power and great hardpoint firepower? Guess what! Most of them have the least armor of all the variants. Meta mechs would NOT be the exclusive meta had this been done. Take the Cataphract 3D. Least armor of all the Cataphract variants. The 4x that no one really likes? More armor than the Muromets [it's listed as half a ton more which in MWO should be 16 points more, but it cuts off at 2 points more for 'tabletop limits' reasons]).

Homeless Bill's targeting computer overload system (in its simplest terms it is ghost heat, but encompasses all weapon systems combined, and instead of heat as punishment it is inaccuracy as punishment).

30 to 40 threshold. Basic concept that'd be an anti-alpha strike. Would require the autocannon burst fire overhaul though.

Weapon variants... can never be done in MWO as it currently is. FLD must be solved/removed from autocannons for this to ever be possible.

Lore-proper SRMs. SRMs that can fire with or without lock. Would help with the streak superiority situation.

Lore proper streaks. Streaks are just SRMs that will not fire without 100% chance to hit. ....this is impossible without giving streak fire control to the computer instead of the player. So this won't ever happen. But not having the 'perfect hit' crap would go a long way to balancing this.

Then there's the ultra basic anti-pinpoint that I'm gonna call Aim-Bob. (Basically take any mech, go in third person, fire a tag and an AC/2 and aim at things. Move. Notice something? Imagine that in first person). Ultra simple, very effective, 100% player controlled anti-pinpoint. And it's already in the game, it just needs to be put in first person. (Short demo here. Long demo with 3 mechs here; including 'skill based' repeated headshots where timing the shots manually [as a triggerable macro will not be able to achieve it] while in full sprint for a Banshee.)

There's so many other ideas as well.

I guess my original statement would be fair to say, "most of the ideas used for balancing out the Clans were the community's ideas for balancing out all weapon systems."

[Dracol]

Sounds good. Posts like these have mitigated my concerns that clans were going to be OP like they were in TT and prior MW games.

Really looking forward to running my dual PPC Puma.

Oh and reminder to everyone about DHS.... its 1.4 when you don't have a mech with doubled basic efficiency unlocked. With them unlocked, at 13 DHS you're at 2.0. Anything less and you're above 2.0. Anything more and your efficiency drops below 2.

[Cavendish]

When I read this about the Clan ER PPC;

The extra 5 damage will be split to 2 adjacent components at 2.5 damage each. For example, if you hit a 'Mech with the Clan ER-PPC in the center torso, 10 damage will be applied to the center torso and 2.5 damage will arc to the left and right torso. If you hit a component that does not have an adjacent component, the 2.5 damage will dissipate into nothing. An example of this is if the Clan ER-PPC hits an arm, 10 points of damage will be applied to the arm and 2.5 damage to that side's torso. The other 2.5 damage will be negated so total damage done on the shot is 12.5.

..am I the only one that is worried about that PGI seems to forget (or simply dont know) that a, say, mechs left arm is actually connected to TWO other sections, Left Side Torso and Back Left Side Torso so there is absolutly no reason for the 2.5 points of damage lost into oblivion?

Edited by Cavendish, 08 June 2014 - 10:16 AM.

[Metafox]

The new clan ACs seem a bit off. They work exactly like clan UACs, except that they take 1 additional crit slot and they lack the double-fire feature. Why not leave single-fire ACs out until ammo switching has been implemented?

[darkkterror]

Is anyone else wondering how a Warhawk Prime is going to manage 4 ER PPCs? At least, without turning into a molten puddle of metal.

[Lucky Moniker]

I am not sure if someone has suggested this already, as I do not have the time to read through all of the pages at the moment, but as a clan mate of mine suggested, if you hit the arm with a CERPPC the damage should arc to the side torso and the rear side torso. As the arm is connected to both, and also if you hit the back of the arm, only the front side torso would make no sense. This could also make it more useful if it threatens back armor at the same time, but not so much to cause a problem (you should lose the arm before back armor is breached in most cases)

EDIT: I see he posted his idea here as well

Edited by Lucky Moniker, 08 June 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Sprouticus]

For all the people freaking out that the clans will be useless at launch:

PGI is in a tremendously tough position with clan mechs. A large % of their population will not have any clan mechs at launch. If they were to overshoot and make the clan mechs OP, they would end up with a riot on their hands. And that riot would be justified.

On the other hand if they undershoot and clan mechs are useless, the rest of us still has IS mechs to use until they can make adjustments.

It is only logical for PGI to err on the side of caution.

Having concerns that PGI will not be quick enough in fixing any weapon issues is understandable considering their history. But to write off the clans as useless and stomp off into a corner pouting makes you seem like children.

[Vassago Rain]

>3052.
>expecting something different.

I seriously hope you freebirth scum don't do this.

[SgtMagor]

hmm, so you think using an erppc might not be the best weapon to use on light mechs but looking at it again, you really don't have to worry about shooting the legs out any more, we finally will have a weapon that will be a good light killer if you aim for the torso and back. I;m really liking the splash damage. Now if only a PPC can short out the Hud and cause a reboot

[J0anna]

Sprouticus, on 08 June 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

For all the people freaking out that the clans will be useless at launch:

PGI is in a tremendously tough position with clan mechs. A large % of their population will not have any clan mechs at launch. If they were to overshoot and make the clan mechs OP, they would end up with a riot on their hands. And that riot would be justified.

On the other hand if they undershoot and clan mechs are useless, the rest of us still has IS mechs to use until they can make adjustments.

It is only logical for PGI to err on the side of caution.

Having concerns that PGI will not be quick enough in fixing any weapon issues is understandable considering their history. But to write off the clans as useless and stomp off into a corner pouting makes you seem like children.

How about you stfu? I don't want them overpowered, I want them competitive, period. And without pinpoint damage they are not. You can't have game balance where one side has the ability to do pinpoint damage and the other side cannot. This attempt an "balancing" weapons is a complete joke, and is what you get when the "balance" designer is unwilling to even play the game. They had 6 months to get it right.....

[Phlinger]

I was trying to explain the way Clans vs. Inner Sphere will work to my son, he doesn't play MWO.

I said, imagine you're in a giant robot running 70kph, you are in an IS mech with the same loadout as me.

2 PPC's, 1AC/20
vs. my
2ERPPC, 1 UAC/20

We are circling each other in a brawl. You shoot me in the center torso. I take ALL of that damage in 1 spot, my CT. I take 40 damage directly to one spot, my CT, you gain 10+10+6 heat = 26

I return fire, hitting in the same place. My damage is split across your CT, RT and LT. The PPC splashes and the UAC/20 spreads across via the shells not firing 1 single shell. you take between 25-40 damage on your CT, depending on how well i can hold the reticule on your CT during the brawl. I gain 15+15+6 heat =36 I can fire again with the UAC/20 because of Ultra AC mechanics, but I could also jam, or you could simply ya know, torso twist away.

Who is going to kill whom faster? The IS mech every time in this situation. Unless the UAC's have a much less jam chance than the current IS UAC/5's do, they are going to flop.

The 16 year old declares this as stupid.

Weapon normalization only works if BOTH sides receive the normalization.

[M0rpHeu5]

The only use i see of gauss rifles after the charge is twin gauss snipers, after the clans are relised the gauss will be never used.

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 08 June 2014 - 11:16 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Pilot Skill.

Ronyn, on 08 June 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I was trying to explain the way Clans vs. Inner Sphere will work to my son, he doesn't play MWO.

I said, imagine you're in a giant robot running 70kph, you are in an IS mech with the same loadout as me.

2 PPC's, 1AC/20
vs. my
2ERPPC, 1 UAC/20

We are circling each other in a brawl. You shoot me in the center torso. I take ALL of that damage in 1 spot, my CT. I take 40 damage directly to one spot, my CT, you gain 10+10+6 heat = 26

I return fire, hitting in the same place. My damage is split across your CT, RT and LT. The PPC splashes and the UAC/20 spreads across via the shells not firing 1 single shell. you take between 25-40 damage on your CT, depending on how well i can hold the reticule on your CT during the brawl. I gain 15+15+6 heat =36 I can fire again with the UAC/20 because of Ultra AC mechanics, but I could also jam, or you could simply ya know, torso twist away.

Who is going to kill whom faster? The IS mech every time in this situation. Unless the UAC's have a much less jam chance than the current IS UAC/5's do, they are going to flop.

The 16 year old declares this as stupid.

Weapon normalization only works if BOTH sides receive the normalization.

pilot skill

[Scratx]

Ronyn, on 08 June 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I was trying to explain the way Clans vs. Inner Sphere will work to my son, he doesn't play MWO.

I said, imagine you're in a giant robot running 70kph, you are in an IS mech with the same loadout as me.

2 PPC's, 1AC/20
vs. my
2ERPPC, 1 UAC/20

We are circling each other in a brawl. You shoot me in the center torso. I take ALL of that damage in 1 spot, my CT. I take 40 damage directly to one spot, my CT, you gain 10+10+6 heat = 26

I return fire, hitting in the same place. My damage is split across your CT, RT and LT. The PPC splashes and the UAC/20 spreads across via the shells not firing 1 single shell. you take between 25-40 damage on your CT, depending on how well i can hold the reticule on your CT during the brawl. I gain 15+15+6 heat =36 I can fire again with the UAC/20 because of Ultra AC mechanics, but I could also jam, or you could simply ya know, torso twist away.

Who is going to kill whom faster? The IS mech every time in this situation. Unless the UAC's have a much less jam chance than the current IS UAC/5's do, they are going to flop.

The 16 year old declares this as stupid.

Weapon normalization only works if BOTH sides receive the normalization.

Umm, not as simple as that.

In that example, were I the clanner I'd just go right INTO YOUR FACE and stay under 90 meters and laugh at you. There goes half your firepower.

And then, if you slap ERPPCs instead to get around that problem, you're at best in the same boat as the clanner. Except he's doing more damage overall than you and likely drilling into your CT just as fast or faster.

Of course, there's more things I could say... the ERPPC has longer range and with the splash damage even missing the CT is still going to damage it if it's a side torso, something you don't get as the IS mech. But hey, if one tilts the playing board to show his point enough, they can prove almost anything.

[Sprouticus]

Moenrg, on 08 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

How about you stfu? I don't want them overpowered, I want them competitive, period. And without pinpoint damage they are not. You can't have game balance where one side has the ability to do pinpoint damage and the other side cannot. This attempt an "balancing" weapons is a complete joke, and is what you get when the "balance" designer is unwilling to even play the game. They had 6 months to get it right.....

Wow, I will just ignore the tantrum and answer your statements:

1) While I am sure it felt good to rant, you did not actually address my question. What would be worse for the game, OP clan mechs where a large % of the population felt they could not complete or clan mechs that are underpowered and need a buff but the clan folks have IS mechs as a backup?

2) Of COURSE they was balance, but a smart man plans for the worst, and lets face it, balancing in this game is REALLY hard. Especially when you are introducing a LOT of variables (new mechs, new weapons, XL engine survivability, 2 crit slot DHS, etc etc.

3) Did it ever occur to you that maybe PGI is trying out the PPC change and AC change on the clans (smaller population of mechs) first so it doesnt break ALL weapons and if it works they wil integrate it into IS mechs later. I am not saying this is their plan, but I hope it is.

4) You are ignoring ALL of the other advantages clan mechs have.

Honestly, you sound like a clan fan boy who simply wants his clan mechs to be OP. It is not going to happen.

[Sprouticus]

Scratx, on 08 June 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Umm, not as simple as that.

In that example, were I the clanner I'd just go right INTO YOUR FACE and stay under 90 meters and laugh at you. There goes half your firepower.

And then, if you slap ERPPCs instead to get around that problem, you're at best in the same boat as the clanner. Except he's doing more damage overall than you and likely drilling into your CT just as fast or faster.

Of course, there's more things I could say... the ERPPC has longer range and with the splash damage even missing the CT is still going to damage it if it's a side torso, something you don't get as the IS mech. But hey, if one tilts the playing board to show his point enough, they can prove almost anything.

In all fairness, I don't think people are intentionally making bad arguments. I just think most of them don't consider everything when they look at their issue.


that having been said, I would LOVE for the IS to get the same treatment down the road. If the clans are underpowered, it would be FAR better to nerf FLD on the IS side than buff clan weapons/mechs.

[Xeno Phalcon]

I wonder what the Cerppc damage transfer will treat cockpit shots or leg shots.