458 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

Looks pretty reasonable on a whole, but the "Clan Autocannon" looks pretty crappy. Why not just make it function as an autocannon?

[ScarecrowES]

Sprouticus, on 08 June 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

4) You are ignoring ALL of the other advantages clan mechs have.

Just to issue a correction here. HAD... in the table top. As represented in MWO though? Looking at it objectively, while certainly there are SOME advantages present in terms of space management, Clan mechs appear to be, overall, significantly less customizable than their tabletop counterparts, and thus less than the current IS mech setup (which are significantly MORE customizable than the TT). As such, the ability to min/max clan mechs is feasibly less than comparable IS mechs of the same weight classes. It's unlikely we'll have the variety of optimized builds we see in IS mechs, and the meta ones will likely be the only real viable ones for this reason.

Further, while it would appear that, shot for shot, Clan weapons will still outdo their IS counterparts, the specific efforts made to balance them appear to maintain the inherit disadvantages of the TT weapons while utterly killing any advantages those weapons may have had in damage or range. From a practical perspective, Clan weapons are a a significant disadvantage now, if only for the factor of increased heat. As several years' worth of gameplay time shows us, a cool mech is a winning mech... every time. Also, the comparitively pin-point, cool, and short duration damage of IS weapons versus clan weapons demonstrate a preference more competitive players choose. If you want to come out on top more often, do your damage fast, to one place, and keep heat low. This is the opposite of the philosophy behind clan balancing, and even goes so far as to make it difficult for even skilled players to keep pace in clan mechs.

[Sprouticus]

Xeno Phalcon, on 08 June 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I wonder what the Cerppc damage transfer will treat cockpit shots or leg shots.

It is kind of birued in the wall of text

Quote

torso. If you hit a component that does not have an adjacent component, the 2.5 damage will dissipate into nothing. An example of this is if the Clan ER-PPC hits an arm, 10 points of damage will be applied to the arm and 2.5 damage to that side's torso. The other 2.5 damage will be negated so total damage done on the shot is 12.5.

I would have preferred either:
Spread 'across'; hit the arm/leg and it does 2.5 to the Torso and CT
Spread 'down/up': hit the arm/leg and it does 3.5 to torso and 2.5 to the arm/leg(whichever you did not hit) on the same side.

Not how I would have preferred it done, but I can live with it.

[Goose]

Soooooo where does head armor fit in with the C-ER-PPC mechanic?

[Cavendish]

Xeno Phalcon, on 08 June 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I wonder what the Cerppc damage transfer will treat cockpit shots or leg shots.

Since the head is connected to the front and rear central torso, and the leg is connected to the same you would hope that there is where the damage go....

[Mcgral18]

Moenrg, on 08 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

How about you stfu? I don't want them overpowered, I want them competitive, period. And without pinpoint damage they are not. You can't have game balance where one side has the ability to do pinpoint damage and the other side cannot. This attempt an "balancing" weapons is a complete joke, and is what you get when the "balance" designer is unwilling to even play the game. They had 6 months to get it right.....

Obscene amounts of firepower might balance them out. My Nova can carry 88 "Firepower" while still bringing 20 DHS to the table, and it might not even have ghost heat. They won't have PP FLD, but they will be able to carry quite a bit more destruction, and while it can't be focused, there is a point you just can't ignore spread damage.

SRMs and LRMs at half the weight, SSRMs at the same weight as IS SRM launchers.

I'm willing to bet they won't be DoA, but they aren't really meta compliant.

Edited by Mcgral18, 08 June 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Cavendish, on 08 June 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

Since the head is connected to the front and rear central torso, and the leg is connected to the same you would hope that there is where the damage go....

By that same reasoning, all components are theoretically connected to at least 2 seperate components, if only to the front and rear of a side torso... thus negating the need to have 2.5 damage disappear into thin air. I'm more inclined, based on experience, that PGI just isn't very good at this sort of thing and possibly "forgot" what parts of the mech connect to others.

[ackstorm]

RE: Clan LBX vs AC

May I suggest that when you buy/own a LBX model the AC model comes free at no charge and vise-versa? Otherwise we will be paying extra money for something we should not be.

[ScarecrowES]

ackstorm, on 08 June 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

RE: Clan LBX vs AC

May I suggest that when you buy/own a LBX model the AC model comes free at no charge and vise-versa? Otherwise we will be paying extra money for something we should not be.

And what happens whenever they DO figure out how to swap ammo types? Do we get a refund for the standard clan autocannons we had to buy?

[ackstorm]

ScarecrowES, on 08 June 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

By that same reasoning, all components are theoretically connected to at least 2 seperate components, if only to the front and rear of a side torso... thus negating the need to have 2.5 damage disappear into thin air. I'm more inclined, based on experience, that PGI just isn't very good at this sort of thing and possibly "forgot" what parts of the mech connect to others.

With arms and legs that logic isn't very sound. Hitting someone in the arm from their front should not spread damage to both front AND back side torso. They didnt hit you from behind, after all, and since arms and legs have no front/back it would be impossible to determine which direction it was coming from anyways. That would allow them to hit your rear armor when they are directly in front of you - not fair.

[Vanguard319]

my thoughts:

On Gauss - I can live with the 2 charging rule.

On Clan ER PPCS - Stupid, just stupid and unnecessary. between Ghost heat and gimped DHS, you'd think there were enough limitations to justify 15 dmg. If you are going to insist on nerfing them even further, at least give us the full 5 dmg to a side torso when we hit an arm or leg.

On Clan LRMs - I like that the minimum range is temporary, but they shouldn't have scaling damage. When was the last time you heard of an explosive weapon that could selectively choose how much if it's warhead is going to detonate? They should launch with the full damage or not at all. (Justified by the fact the clans will have virtually no ECM cover starting out whereas the IS can practically blanket the map with it if they want to.)

The whole point of the clans is that they are an enemy with vastly superior weaponry, who have to be beaten through shrewd tactics. Considering all the advantages that the Inner Sphere already has, I don't see why clan weapons have to be balanced to IS weapons, as by this point, better weaponry was the only real advantage they had.

Edited by Vanguard319, 08 June 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Without reading all, it stands for it self that the clan ER PPC is down to 10 heat with this perversion. Right? RIGHT?!

Because this is a ******* joke. The ER PPC is just like a normal PPC of the IS. All you needed to do was to increase the cooldown to 7 seconds. Less pinpoint? Ok but then also reduce the ******* heat on your bad as **** heat system.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 08 June 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

ackstorm, on 08 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

With arms and legs that logic isn't very sound. Hitting someone in the arm from their front should not spread damage to both front AND back side torso. They didnt hit you from behind, after all, and since arms and legs have no front/back it would be impossible to determine which direction it was coming from anyways. That would allow them to hit your rear armor when they are directly in front of you - not fair.

What's not fair, I think is to have 17% of your weapon damage magically disappear because you decided to leg a light that was harassing your team, rather than aiming for it's torso. Besides, we're talking about damage "arching" from one component to another - which is to assume this arching is electrical in nature. Thus, it's perfectly plausible that you could, in fact, hit the arm in the front and have damage transfer (via electrical, heat, radiation, conduction, convection, induction, or most any other energy transfer method) to the rear torso. What's not perfectly plausible is that said energy would simply disappear into thin air.

[Fastwind]

Khobai, on 07 June 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

Completely agree. Its actually better than the IS PPC. Because even though its doing the 5 arcing damage, it has no min range, and a better max range. Plus it takes up less tonnage and crits. And on top of that clan mechs can slot more heatsinks. CERPPC is 100% fine at 15 heat. However the IS ERPPC needs its heat reduced to 13-14.

rofl
Have you ever fired a ERPPC with 15 heat?
Its simply absolutely not viable.
Have you ever seen a IS mech carrying more than one ERPPC? There is a reason why.
It's to hot!
There is no alternative for clans to the CERPPC.So it's max heat shouldn't be over 12,5.
The IS still has the standart ppc as an alternative with 10 heat 10 dmg,which is viable

[ScarecrowES]

JohnnyWayne, on 08 June 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Without reading all, it stands for it self that the clan ER PPC is down to 10 heat with this perversion. Right? RIGHT?!

Because this is a ******* joke. The ER PPC is just like a normal PPC of the IS. All you needed to do was to increase the cooldown to 7 seconds. Less pinpoint? Ok but then also reduce the ******* heat on your bad as **** heat system.

This is PGI... I mean, come on. "Balance" has always been synonymous with "nerf." It's about the highest level of thinking they can attach to a problem.

[Dalorante Corbanis]

NO META PPC

[JohnnyWayne]

ShinVector, on 08 June 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Geee... Why don't we reduce the IS ERPPC heat while your at it ?? Clan version weighs less, takes less critical slots and does MORE damage than IS ERPPCs.. Reduce the heat too ?

[redacted] Clan mechs are highly uncostumizeable (even though they should be the exact OPPOSITE compared to IS mechs). You have mostly less space in crit slots and tonnage to play with so you dearly need lighter smaller weapons. You are not more armed especially with these nerfs you are less armed that IS mechs.

Considering the clans actual numbers, when they invaded the IS in lore with these jokes they could have also used loincloth and stones.

I don't want clans mechs to be OP but this is taking it too far.

Edited by Egomane, 09 June 2014 - 08:56 AM.
insults

[Fastwind]

ScarecrowES, on 08 June 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Just to issue a correction here. HAD... in the table top. As represented in MWO though? Looking at it objectively, while certainly there are SOME advantages present in terms of space management, Clan mechs appear to be, overall, significantly less customizable than their tabletop counterparts, and thus less than the current IS mech setup (which are significantly MORE customizable than the TT). As such, the ability to min/max clan mechs is feasibly less than comparable IS mechs of the same weight classes. It's unlikely we'll have the variety of optimized builds we see in IS mechs, and the meta ones will likely be the only real viable ones for this reason.

Further, while it would appear that, shot for shot, Clan weapons will still outdo their IS counterparts, the specific efforts made to balance them appear to maintain the inherit disadvantages of the TT weapons while utterly killing any advantages those weapons may have had in damage or range. From a practical perspective, Clan weapons are a a significant disadvantage now, if only for the factor of increased heat. As several years' worth of gameplay time shows us, a cool mech is a winning mech... every time. Also, the comparitively pin-point, cool, and short duration damage of IS weapons versus clan weapons demonstrate a preference more competitive players choose. If you want to come out on top more often, do your damage fast, to one place, and keep heat low. This is the opposite of the philosophy behind clan balancing, and even goes so far as to make it difficult for even skilled players to keep pace in clan mechs.

^^ this a thousand times
All i read about the clan mechs so far is that they are simply totally gimped compared to IS mechs
except maybe the mediums Nova,Stormcrow,and maybe the Direwolf<-- because of possible brawler builds and the only ones having enough tonage to do them.
Light mechs,to slow to skirmish/brawl,long range weapons gimped
Heavy mech,not enough tonage,long range weapons gimped

Dalorante Corbanis, on 08 June 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

NO META PPC

no PPC's at all you mean
One side gets em,one simply doesn't
THATS LOGIC BALANCE

[Cavendish]

ackstorm, on 08 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

With arms and legs that logic isn't very sound. Hitting someone in the arm from their front should not spread damage to both front AND back side torso. They didnt hit you from behind, after all, and since arms and legs have no front/back it would be impossible to determine which direction it was coming from anyways. That would allow them to hit your rear armor when they are directly in front of you - not fair.

It arcs to nearby locations, its a charge, why would it not be able to hit something physicaly connected to the area that you hit? Think of it as massive electric field that arcs to the next location, bringing the charged particles to it since the PPC tech is particles directed by a electromagnetic field /shrug, It sure beats losing 17%+ of your damage due to lazy design.

Edit ScarcrowES beat me to it.

Edited by Cavendish, 08 June 2014 - 12:44 PM.

[Khan Warlock Kell]

I'm not going to comment one way or the other on the weapon changes for the clan weapons yet. Lets get the mechs and weapons in game and see how they function and give the devs time to get some data and the fixes they are working on in game, and then they can start to balance the weapons using real figures rather than just assumed values.


Don't cry about spilled milk until, its actually on the floor. Give the devs a chance to do the right thing.

I might not agree with what the devs have to say. But lately they have been communicating with us in a much better way. Lets applaud them for that.