458 replies to this topic

[J0anna]

Mcgral18, on 09 June 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

Correction, pinpoint FLD is better to a point. I know for a fact if the WubShee closes, your PP FLD will never win, because A, I have 25 tons on the CTF along with all the armor that comes with that, and B, you lose 20 PP FLD when I close to 90M. The 95 tonner can fire 52 damage at your 10, and you'll be cored within 10 seconds. Of course, I have to close first.

As for the Thor...That B variant can mount 5 SSRM6s...AKA, 75 damage. 250% of your alpha at 360M. Along with some extra armor, although I'm not sure 5 tons of ammo would be enough...but 1250 damage should suffice for most matches. But I guess that's only two atlai.

There is a point spread damage will overwhelm pinpoint damage. For less random results, you can also go the laser route...and honestly the stock D loadout isn't half bad. 2 ERLL, 2 ERML, 2 MG and an AMS. Remove AMS, CTC add armor and another heatsink or two. But the 34 damage won't overwhelm your CTF until it closes...which is risky.


I'm going to say if we can max armor, the Thor's will actually be half decent...or at least not terrible. SRM18, 2 ERLL, 21 DHS and 3 tons of ammo fit fine, remove 2 DHS and max the armor, you'd still be fine. With a 56 point alpha strike. At the 50 threshold, it doesn't matter if it's spread or not, two of those can remove a leg. Good luck spreading damage after that.

You're not actually arguing that a 95 ton mech might be better than a 70 ton mech some of the time?

First off who cares about a 1 v 1? This is organized 12-mans I am talking about. You bringing a 95 ton mech without pinpoint damage while I bring a 70 ton mech, means my team has 25 tons to spend elsewhere. Even if I were interested in 1 v 1, I would have to be completely braindead to let you get anywhere close to me - so your successful plan hinges on me making a mistake.....

Stop wasting everyone's time with theory crafting. You're trying to fill out a dropdeck for a 12 on 12. Lets look at the choices:

1) At 100 tons, you can bring an Atlas or a Dire Wolf. At first it seems complicated, the Atlas is faster (able to mount a 335) and brings a good range of weapons. The dire wolf brings much higher DPS (abet spread damage) but with a TC (Targeting Computer), you have good ability to get crits, but is much slower...Oh wait the Atlas gets ECM - Choice Atlas.

2) At 85 tons you can bring a stalker or a Warhawk, the Stalker gets 2xPPC's and an AC-20 - so a very nice 40 point Alpha. The Warhawk can also reach a 40 point alpha, but firing 4 ERPPC's brings in a lot of ghost heat and probably won't work, nonetheless it can fit 2xERPPC's and a Clan Gauss for a nice 35 point Alpha and better heat control, both have good armor and speed - the wild card here is the TC, in any case it might be worth it. So this one's a tossup (\o/, proper balance).

3) At 75 Tons you can bring an Orion or a Timber Wolf. The Orion really isn't a great mech in completion, so the Timber Wolf S will probably be a better choice (though against a Victor, it's going to lose to the 2xPPC 2xUAC-5 setup). The Orion can brawl very well (standard engine and AC-20) but it's pretty easy to strip the AC-20 - so Timberwolf gets the nod here.

4) At 70 Tons you can bring a Cataphract 3D or a Summoner. Do we need to analyze this one? 2xPPC's 2xAC-5's, 300xl, JJ and better armor....this one's not close at all. 3D ftw.

5) At 55 Tons you can bring a Shadow Hawk or a Stormcrow. Both are great mechs. The Shadow Hawk can sweep, poptart and brawl (AC-20), the Stormcrow can sweep very well, but can't bring the pinpoint damage like a Shadow Hawk. Nonetheless, the TC might equalize this matchup. I would give a slight nod to the Shadow Hawk due to it's versatility, but if you wanted a dedicated sweeper, the Stormcrow won't hurt you.

6) At 50 tons you can bring a Nova or a YenLo. Lets see, the YenLo is significantly faster, can carry an AC-20 and 2x ML's and can easily bring down lights with it's arm mounted AC-20. The Nova is very slow and can't match the firepower of a Yenlo. Oh, but it can jump.... Sure I could put 2xERPPC's on it and try to snipe - but the cicada does that better because it has ECM and speed. YenLo clear winner.

7) Lights - really no reason to use slow, non-ecm, sniping lights when fast ECM sniping lights exist, especially since you don't do anymore pinpoint damage. The Jenner and the Ember are some of the best brawling lights in the game, The Raven is much faster and can snipe, and the spider is also much faster and has ECM. Game, set, match.

If the clan mechs were balanced these decisions would ALL be hard. As it is Freebirth mechs 5, Clan Mechs 1 with 2 ties.....Not very good balance here.

[Mcgral18]

Moenrg, on 09 June 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

You're not actually arguing that a 95 ton mech might be better than a 70 ton mech some of the time?

You seem to have ignored everything but the first paragraph...excellent work.

Not to mention...I'm placing my money on the Nova every time for the 50 tonners. 89 isn't very slow, and it can carry so much more firepower...Long range or short range.

For lights, you're probably right. But SSRM20s are nothing to ignore either. But too slow to be played like normal IS lights.

[J0anna]

Mcgral18, on 09 June 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

You seem to have ignored everything but the first paragraph...excellent work.

Not to mention...I'm placing my money on the Nova every time for the 50 tonners. 89 isn't very slow, and it can carry so much more firepower...Long range or short range.

Actually I did not, but I am looking at equal 12 man teams. 1 v 1 means very little to me which is what your argument hinges upon.

The Yenlo has more speed, max armor, and more tons available for weapons (not to mention 4 module slots). Yes, the Nova can carry 12 ERML's, but it cannot use them with only 14 double HS. If the Nova tries to mount a UAC-20, it can't carry any ammo - so that's out. And 89 might be fast in theory, but it's far too slow for mediums in reality (YenLo does 106).

[IraqiWalker]

Sable Phoenix, on 09 June 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Pretty much all of this.



Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I recall them specifically saying they will not be doing that. The IS ACs are and will remain pinpoint slug-throwers, in spite of the lore inaccuracy and the inherent balancing it would lend to the game (just try to pop-tart that AC-5 when it's firing 3 slug bursts).

This decision is purely meant to "balance" the Clans against the Inner Sphere, rather than worrying about the balance of the game as a whole.

Actually, there is some talk in the twittersphere and whatnots about the clans being a test-bed for this coding and tech, and once it's stable, they will move it to IS. As for the slug thrower option, we'll see what happens. Honestly unless they add specialized ammo, no one will bother with taking ACs over LBXs, that was the trade off. ACs could fire specialized ammo, while LBXs could switch between the two firing modes, and were lighter and -1 slot.

[Mcgral18]

Moenrg, on 09 June 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

Actually I did not, but I am looking at equal 12 man teams. 1 v 1 means very little to me which is what your argument hinges upon.

The Yenlo has more speed, max armor, and more tons available for weapons (not to mention 4 module slots). Yes, the Nova can carry 12 ERML's, but it cannot use them with only 14 double HS. If the Nova tries to mount a UAC-20, it can't carry any ammo - so that's out. And 89 might be fast in theory, but it's far too slow for mediums in reality (YenLo does 106).

My theoretical Nova is 8 ERSL, 4 ERML, 4 MG and 20 DHS.

So, 66 alpha or 88 firepower which can output quite a bit more damage than the Wang, more than enough to leg or/and disarm it before it overheats. But they both have the same armor values, so disarming is a risk for both of them. It just so happens the nova can do it in a single alpha strike.

And, it can carry a UAC20 with 2 tons of ammo and 2 ERSLs. Better builds are with the UAC10, but laser and MG centric is much better for only 16 tons of pod space, but missiles aren't an option for any of the launch variants.


12 mans are different than duels, that much is true. Although...I can't safely say the Thor's are DoA vs the CTFs with missile and energy loadouts, assuming missiles are indeed fixed at launch, if armor levels being adjustable. Brawlers spell death for poptarts, assuming they can close. Coordinated pushes can work, but I guess it depends on the skill of said poptarts, and their ability to focus fire.

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 June 2014 - 09:35 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Mcgral18, on 09 June 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

12 mans are different than duels, that much is true. Although...I can't safely say the Thor's are DoA vs the CTFs with missile and energy loadouts, assuming missiles are indeed fixed at launch, if armor levels being adjustable. Brawlers spell death for poptarts, assuming they can close. Coordinated pushes can work, but I guess it depends on the skill of said poptarts, and their ability to focus fire.

I don't know why people are focusing on the LRMs, who cares about that. we're getting SSRM6s!
A Thor with 5 or so SSRM6s, will absolultely destroy opposition within 300 meters. Especially when all SSRMs are on chain fire. You'd honestly need about 7 tons of ammo to sustain fire, though, it would be worth it to have about 1200 damage if you empty the magazines..

[Mcgral18]

IraqiWalker, on 09 June 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

I don't know why people are focusing on the LRMs, who cares about that. we're getting SSRM6s!
A Thor with 5 or so SSRM6s, will absolultely destroy opposition within 300 meters. Especially when all SSRMs are on chain fire. You'd honestly need about 7 tons of ammo to sustain fire, though, it would be worth it to have about 1200 damage if you empty the magazines..

You can fit 5 tons and some extra armor. Heat might be an issue though...but maybe not.

You can always downgrade a couple launchers for an extra ton, on top of being more ammo efficient.

Although I don't think you can have anything other than a single ballistic slot if you take the 5 M slots. It might be wiser to take 3 missile and 2E. But give both a try, at any rate.

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 June 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Felio, on 09 June 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Even if dual gauss mechs aren't topping the charts and winning all the matches, what they do detracts from the fun of the game.

Whining and constant nerfing of everything is what detracts from the fun of the game.

[Ari Dian]

Quote

... to help us keep Clan tech somewhat in-line with the IS tech ...

May i ask why? Why are you castrating the clans like this? Why do you have to try to balance it?
Clans were never meant to be balanced to the IS. And if you try it here, it will end in a joke or just not work.

Why dont you just stay canon? Balance IS vs Clans via quantity vs quality.
Matchmaking by: battlevalue, balanced weight, fixed 12 vs 5 or Batchall, ...
Hell, you had everything. The battlevalues are there. You just had to use these. Take 12 random player from the IS, take the battlevalue of the 12 mechs, take the averge Elo, and find similar player from the clans to match these.

But NOOOO. You have to use the must stupid way to try to balance it. By totally messing up the weapons, systems and mechs.
Currently the IS mechs are more Omni as the Clan Omni mechs ever will be.


Just show me how you are going to balance the ER med laser versus the IS med + large laser (without total ruining the stats).

basicly (canon) the clan ER med laser is a IS large laser with way less weight, less crits, less heat and 1 less damage.
How are you going to balance this, without total ruining the weapon at all? And what do you try to balance on the weapons? The DPS, the DPH or the DPT? because you will never be able to balance all 3.

You will not be able to get the clans and IS weapons to be "equal". Just see the change to the ER-PPC. Nice idea, but the clan one remain way better compared to the IS one. And because of this, you have to "balance" the mechs as well.
The Clan ER-PPC will still be 1 less ton, 1 less crit, and will always do more damage. What do you want to do as well? Increase the cooldown time of the weapons to an insane value (like 8+ sec)?


I dont think it will work. You spend way to much time and manpower into this. Trying to balance a system that was working (in the TT).

[wanderer]

Quote

May i ask why? Why are you castrating the clans like this? Why do you have to try to balance it?
Clans were never meant to be balanced to the IS. And if you try it here, it will end in a joke or just not work.

Too late for that.

And yes, that's the $500 joke. PGI wanted new robots that could easily be slotted into the existing MM setup. The only way to do this easily is castrating Clan 'Mechs, turning them into Clan-in-name-only.

Enjoy your CINOs.

[IraqiWalker]

Ari Dian, on 10 June 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

May i ask why? Why are you castrating the clans like this? Why do you have to try to balance it?
Clans were never meant to be balanced to the IS. And if you try it here, it will end in a joke or just not work.

Why dont you just stay canon? Balance IS vs Clans via quantity vs quality.
Matchmaking by: battlevalue, balanced weight, fixed 12 vs 5 or Batchall, ...
Hell, you had everything. The battlevalues are there. You just had to use these. Take 12 random player from the IS, take the battlevalue of the 12 mechs, take the averge Elo, and find similar player from the clans to match these.

But NOOOO. You have to use the must stupid way to try to balance it. By totally messing up the weapons, systems and mechs.
Currently the IS mechs are more Omni as the Clan Omni mechs ever will be.


Just show me how you are going to balance the ER med laser versus the IS med + large laser (without total ruining the stats).

basicly (canon) the clan ER med laser is a IS large laser with way less weight, less crits, less heat and 1 less damage.
How are you going to balance this, without total ruining the weapon at all? And what do you try to balance on the weapons? The DPS, the DPH or the DPT? because you will never be able to balance all 3.

You will not be able to get the clans and IS weapons to be "equal". Just see the change to the ER-PPC. Nice idea, but the clan one remain way better compared to the IS one. And because of this, you have to "balance" the mechs as well.
The Clan ER-PPC will still be 1 less ton, 1 less crit, and will always do more damage. What do you want to do as well? Increase the cooldown time of the weapons to an insane value (like 8+ sec)?


I dont think it will work. You spend way to much time and manpower into this. Trying to balance a system that was working (in the TT).

Aside from your screaming there, your statement about the IS mechs being more omni than the clan mechs is just completely and absolutely wrong. There's no way around it, it's just wrong.

IS mechs stick to the hardpoints they have, while clan get to swap, and pick and choose which hardpoints they want on their chassis for this Tuesday afternoon. Also, a lot of people seem to just absolutely not understand what the omni system was.

Customization was a by-product, not the actual feature of omni pods. They were designed to make it easier to replace parts quickly. Unlike IS mechs which functionally could do the same thing, even change hardpoints, the clans only needed a few hours/days in the mechbay to do it, while IS needed months and a whole lot more money.

As for the clan mech balance, they did mention they are working on asymmetrical warfare, and having set ups like 10 v 12. I swear, if people would just READ the CC posts, and listen to the dev vlogs, so much complaining would just disappear from the forums.

As for the ERMLs, they will still have their range, and they will still deal high damage, the only difference is that their beam duration is longer, they might even generate a bit more heat than IS MLs. Which would make sense, since it's technically a large laser with less slots, tonnage and heat.

[Alex Warden]

BigTaeng, on 07 June 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Ironically Clan pinpoint damage will be mitigated while IS pinpoint damage will be even deadlier against Clan 'Mechs because of their weak armor values.

It seems PGI wants to stop this invasion before it even starts.

makes my job easier

[wanderer]

BigTaeng is incorrect- Clan 'Mechs can add/subtract armor and move it around- they just can't change the armor TYPE.

You've got a Clanner with Ferro-Fibrous. You can't change to standard armor, but you can max out/move armor points as much as you wish.

Edited by wanderer, 10 June 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[J0anna]

Mcgral18, on 09 June 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

My theoretical Nova is 8 ERSL, 4 ERML, 4 MG and 20 DHS.

So, 66 alpha or 88 firepower which can output quite a bit more damage than the Wang, more than enough to leg or/and disarm it before it overheats. But they both have the same armor values, so disarming is a risk for both of them. It just so happens the nova can do it in a single alpha strike.

And, it can carry a UAC20 with 2 tons of ammo and 2 ERSLs. Better builds are with the UAC10, but laser and MG centric is much better for only 16 tons of pod space, but missiles aren't an option for any of the launch variants.


12 mans are different than duels, that much is true. Although...I can't safely say the Thor's are DoA vs the CTFs with missile and energy loadouts, assuming missiles are indeed fixed at launch, if armor levels being adjustable. Brawlers spell death for poptarts, assuming they can close. Coordinated pushes can work, but I guess it depends on the skill of said poptarts, and their ability to focus fire.

That's an interesting Nova setup and could be a good sweeper, its just that the Hback w/a 250 is fairly sluggish and I expect the Nova to suffer from the same issue. Once in a brawl it certainly could work, but unlike the ember it would probably draw a lot more fire since it takes quite a bit longer to get into position. It is a closer matchup than others but I still like the YenLo because of the speed and concentrated damage.

The Summoner with 5xSSRM 6's is actually beaten by the Stormcrow (which can also mount 5, has the same armor, moves faster, and actually has more weight for ammo). Bringing a 70 ton sweeper really isn't good when you can bring a 55 ton one. Lets remember that both of them have a narc launcher, so one of those launchers will actually be firing one missile at a time (while the others fire 2 at a time). I will admit that with the addition of multiple SSRM-6's the days of brawling lights could be coming to an end.

As I have said before, I think the Clan weapons changes are good for the game overall, but leaving the Freebirth weapons able to do pinpoint damage is not balanced, period. Freebirth mechs have significant advantages with their infinite customization. If they included the ability to customize Omnimechs to that extent and left the weapons as is w/TT values it would be completely unbalanced - and I do not want that. I want a balanced game where commanders have actual choices to make over what mechs to bring on their teams - we are not there (and before you say - give PGI some time - they had 6 months to get it right). Their "balance" designer had 6 months to analyze weapon use and data - figure out what players have found works and what does not, not theory but practice. They even ran a tournament and have that data to analyze.

If (and I mean IF) the plan is to make all AC's burst fire weapons and all PPC's spread damage weapons, then fine, but why do we have to wait for it? Why do we have to test weapons on a "finished", non-beta game, for who knows how long before we get balance? When CW comes out, I truly hope you can ONLY use clan mechs on the clan side and freebirth mechs on the freebirth side. That is why I want balance. Maybe you are not there yet, but dropping for no other reason but to kill some random people gets boring fairly fast. I hope CW actually gives us a good reason to drop, and I hope we have better balance at that time. Sure I will use clan mechs in random matches, but when going up against another team many of them won't make the drop.

[Ngamok]

ScarecrowES, on 08 June 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

The problem (again, I suspect) is one of variable statistics dependent on conditions which are, themselves, variable - and of course being able to account for all of that variability in predictable ways that lead to the desired result.

It's an easy thing to say that, below 180m, you do no damage. Relatively simple from a coding perspective. It's also an easy thing to adjust tracking strength. What you're looking at here are simple statistics that are fixed and do not vary or change state. Even if you technically have different rules between 1000-180m and 180-0m, the result at those distances never changes. But when you have to now compensate for an infinitely variable state between 180-0m, and a second state between 1000-180m that does not change, things get more than a little wonky. Especially with PGI's chosen system for netcode.

They can just make it that clan LRMs don't lock under 180m and you will just have to dumb fire them instead. Keep the damage at 1.0 or 1.1 as not all missiles will hit anyways.

[Ngamok]

Ronyn, on 08 June 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I was trying to explain the way Clans vs. Inner Sphere will work to my son, he doesn't play MWO.

I said, imagine you're in a giant robot running 70kph, you are in an IS mech with the same loadout as me.

2 PPC's, 1AC/20
vs. my
2ERPPC, 1 UAC/20

We are circling each other in a brawl. You shoot me in the center torso. I take ALL of that damage in 1 spot, my CT. I take 40 damage directly to one spot, my CT, you gain 10+10+6 heat = 26

I return fire, hitting in the same place. My damage is split across your CT, RT and LT. The PPC splashes and the UAC/20 spreads across via the shells not firing 1 single shell. you take between 25-40 damage on your CT, depending on how well i can hold the reticule on your CT during the brawl. I gain 15+15+6 heat =36 I can fire again with the UAC/20 because of Ultra AC mechanics, but I could also jam, or you could simply ya know, torso twist away.

Who is going to kill whom faster? The IS mech every time in this situation. Unless the UAC's have a much less jam chance than the current IS UAC/5's do, they are going to flop.

The 16 year old declares this as stupid.

Weapon normalization only works if BOTH sides receive the normalization.

I will just circle you at under 90m. I win.

[Ngamok]

Xeno Phalcon, on 08 June 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

I wonder what the Cerppc damage transfer will treat cockpit shots or leg shots.

Leg shots will go to the R/LT same as ammo explosions. Not sure on head.

[Butane9000]

Any chance we can get a video of clan weaponry in action?

[Ngamok]

Cest7, on 08 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

So you're gimping gauss boating, understandable.
Can we change the recycle to 3.25s yet?

Not sure I'd say gimping Gauss boating as currently only 1 variant of 1 chassis can do it and it's rarely seen doing it.

[Ngamok]

7ynx, on 08 June 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

I'll keep my opinion to myself until the clan tech is out.

Right? Shadowhawk too tall in picture thus DOA.