684 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

Spheroid, on 09 June 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

I will tell you what does need to be nerfed, the terrain following ability of LRMs once they lose lock. Why was this even programmed in for a game that is so poorly optimized as it is?

Can some computer science guy tell how this more efficient than a simple ballistic trajectory routine?

If I am using cover as everyone says I should, why should I take damage from an unguided missile that will not stop until it hits something other than the ground? Zero skill was used for that damage. Many assaults on caustic cannot achieve sufficient lateral movement in reverse to move out of the way when the missiles follow the terrain down the caldera.

That's because it hasn't lost lock and it's still tracking you. Firer probably has a Target Decay module and the locks are still on the missiles, and it's following your CT along and looking like it's following terrain. It's not. It's still tracking you. Properly dumbfire missiles are very stupid and is ballistic in nature -- you'll learn to differentiate the two once you have seen some stupid muck in a LRM boat just spraying missiles.

EDIT: Just for maths.. If you break lock on a Target Decay-enabled firer, his locks still stay for 3s. At a missile speed of 160m/s, that's nearly 500m that the missiles would still home, tracking you. Do you have that much distance from the missiles at the point of breaking locks? And if you broke locks while evasion, one common problem is that evasive movement would accidentally expose you to locks again. If the firer locks you up again, missiles in the air that had you as a target previous would start to track you again.

Edited by Lynx7725, 09 June 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[KharnZor]

What hes talking about is after a flight of missiles loses lock the follow the contours of the terrain to explode when they hit the ground. When a missile loses lock it shouldn't do that at all..

[Lynx7725]

KharnZor, on 09 June 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

What hes talking about is after a flight of missiles loses lock the follow the contours of the terrain to explode when they hit the ground. When a missile loses lock it shouldn't do that at all..

I've never actually seen that happen. I've seen lockless missile gone ballistic into the ground, pretty normal stuff, and missile doing NoE flying after a fast mover, usually is because the fast mover is still locked, but I've not seen lockless LRMs do NOE flying.

Not saying it can't exist, but anyone has a video of it?

[Gyrok]

Bobzilla, on 09 June 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

Here's a question for those saying LRMs take no skill.

Would you prefer they act exactly like PPCs or ACs or lasers?

You point your cross hairs on the target (even for a split second) then click and those missles would track to the target your cross hairs were over (even the section they were pointed at). No waiting for a lock, no maintaing a lock, they just track.
All other current rules would apply, like ECM.

Would they then take skill? Seriously asking if that's how you feel.

I would prefer they act like regular old SRMs with more range, just like they are supposed to...honestly. Streak LRMs are not in this timeline or any time in the near future of this timeline. That is what we have, streak LRMs. So...yeah...they should be dumb fired weapons with range...no firing without LOS through a magic C3 targeting system that most mechs in this game would not otherwise have and costs no tonnage to use.

Not saying that 1 LRM boat is an issue, it is not. My issue is when you get 2 lances that run LRM boats for lolz and take 2 spotters and sit back behind a hill and spam LRM300 at any target that is spotted or even remotely away from any cover.

Some maps, in order to close to them, you must leave cover. I know that sounds like it has to be impossible...but on maps like Alpine, Caustic, and to lesser degrees other maps, there are times when you must either leave cover and take them down to break the otherwise boring stalemate, or sit back and take a draw 0-0. I do not like to lose...so I eventually lead a push and get wasted on the way in because angles of approach simply suck on some maps...

This game has the following stuff that is WAY in the future:

Angel ECM (Guardian ECM is FAR simpler than what we have now...)
C3 Computer (No target sharing in 3050 without C3 or some semblance of it)
Streak LRMs (A 3060 weapon in 3050?)
Artillery without attackable artillery emplacements.
A WAY overpowered NARC beacon that has no parallel in TT

Meanwhile...

This game has the following IN TIMELINE things that are BROKEN:

SRM hit detection
pinpoint damage
DHS (1.4 with increasing heat caps)
Command Console(sort of fixed soon-ish)
Streak4 and Streak6 missiles that chain fire in 2s
Ripple fire Clan LRMs that have a minimum range
Gauss Rifles with less range than ERLL and WAY less than ERPPC (seriously?)
AC2 with less range than ERPPC...(what?)
JJs that do not have an accuracy penalty while firing mid air

I could go on and on...I have not even gotten onto ghost terrain hitboxes and other things yet...

Edited by Gyrok, 09 June 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 09 June 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

I would prefer they act like regular old SRMs with more range, just like they are supposed to...honestly. Streak LRMs are not in this timeline or any time in the near future of this timeline. That is what we have, streak LRMs. So...yeah...they should be dumb fired weapons with range...no firing without LOS through a magic C3 targeting system that most mechs in this game do not have and costs no tonnage.

Both Streak LRM and the regular LRM have the homing ability in the first place. Regular LRMs are not dumb fire only.

You have no idea what Streak LRMs are for. Streak LRMs are used for ammo saving, because it will not fire unless you lock.

The indirect lock aspect of the LRMs could use some tweaking but not before ECM rework. ECM is currently the chief culprit of LRM balancing. Make current GECM function as the canon GECM and PGI can get rid of indirect fire for all I care.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 June 2014 - 04:02 AM.

[Lynx7725]

Gyrok, on 09 June 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Some maps, in order to close to them, you must leave cover. I know that sounds like it has to be impossible...but on maps like Alpine, Caustic, and to lesser degrees other maps, there are times when you must either leave cover and take them down to break the otherwise boring stalemate, or sit back and take a draw 0-0. I do not like to lose...so I eventually lead a push and get wasted on the way in because angles of approach simply suck on some maps...

It's true. Alpine, Caustic are openish maps that does require exposure to some degree. You can take cover in them, and take cover well, but the setup is such that there are places where there is too much exposure.

Thing is, it's supposed to be a team game, even in PUGs. Coordinated pushes on Alpine up slope without cover has worked for me before, but that's because I'm in front raining LRMs on exposed targets and driving them back... and the rest of the PUG team sees the opportunity and push up after me. On Caustic it's a bit more difficult, but moving as a team spreads damage out and allow my team to close to effective brawl range to be decisive.

Alternatively, there's the usual "I'll distract them here, you circle around" gambit, which incidentally is great on Caustic, not so great on Alpine (but still workable -- had one game last night where I was cheekily holding the attention of most of an enemy team while the bulk of mine went around the hill to punch faces.).

There are options on most if not all maps. The problem is getting PUGs to recognize such. If you are fortunate to be in a team that does recognize alternatives, LRMs are rarely a problem, as the team is able to flow and reorganize fluidly. I find the teams with the most problems tend to be teams that decide to become static, and refuses to find alternatives to break a stalemate.. but that has little to do with LRMs as a weapon systems.

[Gyrok]

Lynx7725, on 09 June 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

[/size]
It's true. Alpine, Caustic are openish maps that does require exposure to some degree. You can take cover in them, and take cover well, but the setup is such that there are places where there is too much exposure.

Thing is, it's supposed to be a team game, even in PUGs. Coordinated pushes on Alpine up slope without cover has worked for me before, but that's because I'm in front raining LRMs on exposed targets and driving them back... and the rest of the PUG team sees the opportunity and push up after me. On Caustic it's a bit more difficult, but moving as a team spreads damage out and allow my team to close to effective brawl range to be decisive.

Alternatively, there's the usual "I'll distract them here, you circle around" gambit, which incidentally is great on Caustic, not so great on Alpine (but still workable -- had one game last night where I was cheekily holding the attention of most of an enemy team while the bulk of mine went around the hill to punch faces.).

There are options on most if not all maps. The problem is getting PUGs to recognize such. If you are fortunate to be in a team that does recognize alternatives, LRMs are rarely a problem, as the team is able to flow and reorganize fluidly. I find the teams with the most problems tend to be teams that decide to become static, and refuses to find alternatives to break a stalemate.. but that has little to do with LRMs as a weapon systems.

Agreed. Entirely.

However when your team comp looks like this:

Pro
Pro
Pro
Pro
Scrub
Scrub
Scrub
Scrub
Scrub
Scrub
Scrub
Scrub

Then your enemy looks like this:

Average
Average
Average
Average
Average
Average
Average
Average
Average
Average
Average
Average

Then you end up with 8 twits who sit back scared to death that they will lose an arm if they step out from behind the rock they are pinning you to because they do not care you cannot move while they are trying to force their way into YOUR cover.

Trying to get them to do anything ends up with team chat like this:

"Bravo lance push around while we come from the other side"
"NO WAI! You do it!"
"You must be crazy, at least I am not dead...yet!"
"That will not work"
"How do we kill lurmz boatz plz?"
"I can haz cheezburger!"
"BACON LORD SAYS NO"
"WE LOSE...FAIL!!!"
"LURMS ARE OP, NERF LURMZ!!!!"

It is honestly hopeless...I prefer to drop 12 mans these days because PUG matches are so frustrating when you get matched with twits...honestly, I prefer when the HoL, 228th and SJR guys are on in the pub queue...competition is stiff, but they work together. I would rather do 300 damage and 1 kill with 5-6 assists against the best in the game and win, than do 1200 damage with 5-6 kills and lose trying to carry 8 players with a 4 man.

[Sephlock]

Gyrok, on 09 June 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

stuff

Always listen to the Bacon Lord. He'll never steer you wrong.

[Lynx7725]

Gyrok, on 09 June 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

Then you end up with 8 twits who sit back scared to death that they will lose an arm if they step out from behind the rock they are pinning you to because they do not care you cannot move while they are trying to force their way into YOUR cover.

Trying to get them to do anything ends up with team chat like this:

"Bravo lance push around while we come from the other side"
"NO WAI! You do it!"
"You must be crazy, at least I am not dead...yet!"
"That will not work"
"How do we kill lurmz boatz plz?"
"I can haz cheezburger!"
"BACON LORD SAYS NO"
"WE LOSE...FAIL!!!"
"LURMS ARE OP, NERF LURMZ!!!!"

It is honestly hopeless...I prefer to drop 12 mans these days because PUG matches are so frustrating when you get matched with twits...honestly, I prefer when the HoL, 228th and SJR guys are on in the pub queue...competition is stiff, but they work together. I would rather do 300 damage and 1 kill with 5-6 assists against the best in the game and win, than do 1200 damage with 5-6 kills and lose trying to carry 8 players with a 4 man.

Dude.. if you get that much response from PUGs in chat, wow.

Agreed also on the PUGs. But at some point we all have to PUG, and at some point those newbies have to learn. I take LRM also in a way because that's about the lowest form of teamwork you can expect to actually semi-work in a PUG... and I'm taking the LRMboat because at least I'm assured the support fire know what it's doing. Spotters... not so much, but I got 11 spotters compared to maybe 2 or 3 LRMboats at best in any PUGs.

Hopefully, after they been in a few games where their "teamwork" got good wins, they'd remember to actually do the right things in future matches. That's all I can hope for from PUGs, really.

[ColonelMetus]

LRM have killed the fun of the game

[Sephlock]

ColonelMetus, on 09 June 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

LRM have killed the fun of the game

The LRM speed buff put some of the fun back into the game. Too bad it got toned down a bit.

All we need now is to get knockdown back, and then for them to introduce DFA.

AND AXES!

[Lykaon]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

Wow now the real way to use LRMs.

Select a possition that is within 500-600m of the targets this will reduce flight time and as a result reduce enemy reaction time.Extreme range launches are not an ideal use of ammo and should mainly serve the purpose of area denial and covering fire allowing your direct fire team mates to set up in more advantageous ground or close distance with less incoming fire.

An idea target would be within 600m-300m of your possition .Larger and slower are better.Larger means more ordnance on the target (the LRM cone is only so big or so small so big area means more missiles hit).Slower means less of a chance of finding hard cover or breaking line of sight and locks.

This is not to say that there are no reasons to engage smaller and faster mechs I'm just saying if given a choice between a 70 ton CTF running at 75 KPH or a Jenner moving at 130 KPH take the CTF out.

The most important thing is Location Location Location.Many newbie Lurmers think in the back always and the further away the better.
WRONG!
If you are to far back you risk being cut off from support and with a 180m min range you are more than likely dead meat when attacked by a mech less than half your size.So don't be to far away from the "front" lines.

And as I said if you are 900m away you have given the target twice the time to react than being 450m away.I recommend 500-600m as a good "close support" distance.

Another important factor is trajectory of your ordnance.If you are firing from directly rear of the rest of your company's advance you run the risk of showering ordnance on friendlies that happen to get between you and your intended target.
This is why I say the outer flank or "wings" are the place to be.Setting up slightly offset from the center of advance will give you clearer lines of fire and,since the enemy will also be advancing along a front opposite your teams you will reduce the chances of ECM and AMS concentrations.(ECM is another issue all together)

Then we have the choice of specific location after you have found your general location (600m or so back on a side)
Specificly you want a spot that provides two sides of hard cover and some sort of soft cover to your front and/or sides.

This will shield one side and your rear from counter battery fire from enemy lurmers while providing you with a clear lane of fire along the flank you decided to set up on.The forward soft cover can be used to slink behind to avoid direct fire and reduce the effectivness of enemy missile locks.

You may have noticed I differentiated cover as "hard" and "soft" wel here's what that is about.

Hard cover blocks line of sight to you 100% the obsticle used for cover is about 50% taller than you or at least the same height as your mech if you are within 15 m of the object.This negates direct fire threats and vastly if not entirely stops enemy LRMs.

Soft cover is either broken up with openings or not taller than your mech.Soft cover can be the opposite side of a hill with the crest being the cover or a couple of boulders you can quickly get behind.

Also MOVE! do not hold one spot for very long once the battle is joined,eventually someone will get sick of you and send in a striker or ECM to knock you out.Or if you are a big enough threat the battle line may actually swing to place you at the objective center of attention.

Anticipate the flow of battle! it does no one any good if you failed to pay attention to how the battle is unfolding or where the enemy is moving to. A lurmer that is 1200m out on the wrong side of the map is slightly less useless than a disconnect at the LZ.


As you can see this incomplete list of tactical advise on LRM use is a fair share more skill oriented than lock/spam/repeat that you think is happening.Or did you actually get KO'ed by a Lurm spamming noob? then in that case LTP!

[PhoenixFire55]

El Bandito, on 09 June 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

LRMs are only as powerful as YOU let them be.

That goes for every weapon, doesn't stop people from b!itching about LRMs, PPCs, ACs, Gauss, SSRMs and any such. Meta is born by cowardness and hiding behind corners and teammates. When a team loads up on SRMs/AC20s and charges the enemy together, all those meta jumpers and LRM spammers die within seconds.

[zortesh]

PhoenixFire55, on 09 June 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

That goes for every weapon, doesn't stop people from b!itching about LRMs, PPCs, ACs, Gauss, SSRMs and any such. Meta is born by cowardness and hiding behind corners and teammates. When a team loads up on SRMs/AC20s and charges the enemy together, all those meta jumpers and LRM spammers die within seconds.

Well said, although srms flatout do no damage for me or against me...

There been so many battles i can't count where I've been running a coordinated lrm lance and held up the entire enemy team long enough for the friendlies to arrive merely because there too cowardly to take some damage.



Thats a perfect example, there was a brawler directfire heavy team, within 300 meters of a lrm boat heavy team who had no cover, victory was as easy as rushing over the hill in a blob, they even had 3 overlapping ecm bubbles.

Instead they stayed back, traded shots for pititful damage, and let me narc them into oblivion.

A rush there would of crushed us, destroyed any ability for the lrm boats to coordinate fire.. generally lead to a easy victory.

Caution is good, cowardice is death, ie the cicada i narced, he ran strait away from the battle, and died by lrms, when he could of ran about 80 meters towards the battle and been 100% safe under ecm unbrellas.

Charging meta lances is alot more risky and there is a respectable chance of failure, but it also works.... works especially good if there not premades and or panic and cease coordinating fire.

[Reitrix]

MechB Kotare, on 09 June 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

You see, there are 2 kinds of Lurmers. Those packing very classy builds featuring double Lurm 10/15/20 along with some lasers, acs or whatever. These builds are so balanced, that with very limited ammo for LRMs, they need to reconsider range, position of enemy mech and its surroundings before they actually launch LRMs with biggest chance of hitting.

= Skill.

Then, there are builds, packing quad lrm 10/15s, or 6x lrm5 (+artemis) packing shitload of ammo, which is basicly almost impossible to deplete, shooting every lock like a brainless tard, mostly in chain fire to add some trollish suppressing screen shake. Gets even batter on unballanced map such as caustic, along with nice narc beacon.

= no skill brainless spamming.

My "brainless" 6xALRM5 Catapult works best in conjunction with front line Assaults ... My rain limits the damage they recieved, and launching salvo after salvo at a target my paired Assault 'mech (i like to find an Assault who isnt afraid of wading in and stick near him) softens them up so much that my Assault buddy can blow it away that much sooner.

[Reitrix]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Which should be fixed. LRMs should be effective at all levels of play.

They technically are. a competent LRM boat with a good spotter will decimate poptart lines.
The liklihood of finding and solidly communicating with said spotter in PuGland is somewhat lacking though.

[PhoenixFire55]

zortesh, on 10 June 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Well said, although srms flatout do no damage for me or against me...

Not holding my breath, but maybe it'll get fixed on 17th.

zortesh, on 10 June 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Instead they stayed back, traded shots for pititful damage, and let me narc them into oblivion.

A rush there would of crushed us, destroyed any ability for the lrm boats to coordinate fire.. generally lead to a easy victory.

My point exactly ...

Reitrix, on 10 June 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

My "brainless" 6xALRM5 Catapult works best in conjunction with front line Assaults ... My rain limits the damage they recieved, and launching salvo after salvo at a target my paired Assault 'mech (i like to find an Assault who isnt afraid of wading in and stick near him) softens them up so much that my Assault buddy can blow it away that much sooner.

And my "brainless" 5xALRM5 + Narc Catapult is a front line assault. Because you won't believe how many people can't shoot back because of the incoming missiles and just choose to turn around and run from you when they were 250m away ...

[El Bandito]

Reitrix, on 10 June 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

They technically are. a competent LRM boat with a good spotter will decimate poptart lines. The liklihood of finding and solidly communicating with said spotter in PuGland is somewhat lacking though.

No they are not. No LRMs were used in any serious tourneys. Any NARCer that tries it will eat plenty of PPC+AC rounds in the face.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 June 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[zortesh]

Speaking from experience, narcing vs organized meta teams is a suicide run, it can be done... but is risky beyond all bleif, 450 meters is extremely short range, usally the enemy will be atleast 500+ meters away from the nearest cover you can use, and dont even think about attempting to close that 50 meters and run back again.

Lrms can rule pugland due to cowardice, lack of communication, and generally mismatched forces.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

According to the ingame situation LRM are Suprise mechs. You enter a game. You have luck. Enemy no ECM, Alpine piks, PUG stay s together. plenty meatshields and spotter....LRM boat deal plenty opf damage and kills.
.....
On 2/3 drps....LRM boats just die. Cover ECM whatever.

PPC do their damage on all maps....LRM not.

Just give it a try. Ist not as easy as 3 month ago.

LRMs are fine as they are. Wait for Clantech...Then you can cry again.