Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 June 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:
No offense, but LRMs without Artemis/TAG suck for damage. There is only one instance where that works, and it's 5+ LRM 5's being chained, because their spread is already tight enough.
But the Cat version of that build is totally countered by ECM and the Kintaro version frankly sucks.
Anyone complaining about that is truly the baddest of the bad.
No offense taken. I was looking for clarification on your position and I understand where you are coming from.
Except I didn't google it. I literally picked up a paperback Merriam Webster dictionary, looked up the word, and wrote down the listed definition.
Pics or GTFO.
Not intending to razz you over this too much. It's just interesting that your dictionary has a much more specific definition for the word than any other source I've come across.
Most of proposed changes in this topic are great and would go a very looong way in MWO, but I still can't agree to LRMs being "skill-less". Agree with Johanssen, they require a lot of brains to make work, but basically they require the same skill as any weapon system does - aim and shoot. Granted, you don't have to aim at specific part of the Mech, but that is made up by having a lot of brain power that must go to general performance of player. No matter if you call it brains or skill though, LRMs are very needy of it, and I'm not that sure those two terms differ that much.
You say "you don't have to aim" which is a plus. I say "you can't aim" which is a minus.
Being able to lock on isn't there to make the weapon easier. It's because trying to dumbfire LRM's at their travel speed is almost pointless, unless shooting at an Atlas piloted by someone with very slow reflexes. Though with the amount of ECM around sometimes you have no other choice.
Not intending to razz you over this too much. It's just interesting that your dictionary has a much more specific definition for the word than any other source I've come across.
Not intending to razz you over this too much. It's just interesting that your dictionary has a much more specific definition for the word than any other source I've come across.
Pocket dictionary maybe? It's pretty small. Like wallet sized. Lol.
Exactly. They are skill-less more or less. I don't have to prove it. They are the easiest weapons to use and that's just a fact; okay,
No it's not a fact, it's your opinion. I find direct-fire weapons much easier to use. Does that mean it's a fact that direct weapons are skill-less?
Quote
...there is simply nothing you can do having looked at the sky and seeing around 160-200 missiles coming your way. (It literally looked like an arc of fire coming at me from 1km away.. was in a boars head and just quit the game as my match was over.)
There's your problem then. You stood in the open in an Atlas watching missiles fly at you from 1000m away. That's not an LRM problem.
One, it makes LRMs even more binary: catch a guy out in the open and flay his 'Mech; or spend a lot to time, heat and stores on targets that escape behind cover. Two, half-pace firing quickly becomes irrelevant if a team has enough missile boats, especially if direct combat or other tactics provide spotting for constant firing. Three, lower missile counts per ton encourages boating, since one or two tons on a support rack is harder to justify.
Part of the problem is a matchmaker often allowing 9+ assaults and heavies on one team -- when players can bet that someone else will provide more balanced firepower, they can sit in the back and boat. With limited slots per 3/3/3/3 -- and six lights and mediums than can wolfpack -- there will be some psychological pressure against being an LRM Atlas.
I do think one problem is ammunition -- not counts per ton, but tons per 'Mech. Boating should be about burst at the expense of endurance.
For your first issue; that's correct. Because right now you can catch someone out in the open, and as I said 3 LRM-15s took 39 seconds to get a kill in the open without Artemis. I had essentially given up because my computer locks up on DX 11 with MSAA every time the blur effect comes into play. I can't see, I can't move, I can't do anything. It's just a hiccup, but it's enough to ruin the experience. (I've since gone back to DX9). But 39 seconds to die from Missiles. That's 49.5 damage per volley of 3 launchers. Did you know 6 machine guns can do 60 damage in 10 seconds, and kill much faster than the "148.5" damage in 10 seconds that the 3 LRM-15s would do? Getting killed while moving and fighting by two 6 MG Jagermechs only takes 7 seconds.
Taking 39 seconds to die is boring as hell. To a new player that gives the feeling of complete and total helplessness because it's constant and nothing can be done about it. Many new players in the new player help wind up leaving or sharing their frustration and hoping for some help to turn them around from leaving because they feel absolutely powerless.
Then, when you go to use an LRM boat... it feels completely worthless. And it really is.
Spoiler
What makes players hate LRMs so much is that even when you get behind cover, the LRMs will still hit you -- because you have no idea that someone just NARC'd you. So in that constant spam, you try to go for cover. Welp you lost an arm. And quite a bit of armor. So now you decide the only thing you can do is rush out there and get him (we're talking about a new player mind you), so you rush out there... and you die. Or the more skilled player will hide back into cover, then change cover, then change cover, and never move until someone else keeps it busy -- because that's the only way you'll ever get close. It's constant spam.
So back to issue number one. On the boat's side of things, the LRM boat pilot is drinking coffee, reading up on a celebrity gossip rag, and holding down a button after making everyone else do his work for him. This is essentially a method for farming cbills and doesn't even require the player's interaction It is not engaging, it is in fact boring to play and boring to watch.
But, then we intensify the reward for making a hit! BOOM! That guy is FRIED! Wait, LRM use just got exciting!
We also intensified the risk. Fwoosh! Miss! Now that guy you were just messing with and his friends are coming for you. ...Are you still gonna boat those missiles? Or are you gonna bring yourself some backup weapons? Because right now, you're completely screwed!
Said Atlas with no backup weapons.
But wait... LRM Atlas with backup weapons! (Back in R&R days or close to them).
Well now, looks like the dedicated LRM boat would get smarter. Back then missile reload times took longer and were 1.9 damage. Pretty useless back then too, but, I'm only asking for between 2.0 and 2.2 damage per missile.
Anyway back to "issue 1." The player is now engaged. Playing the LRM boat is not boring and is now more tactical. It requires thought, positioning, and choice. Do I spam now and lose the ability to fire later when a better opportunity comes, or do I wait?
Is running an assault mech with LRMs really such a good idea? Or should I be doing this with a medium mech so that I can be highly mobile while firing missiles and able to relocate at a moment's notice?
Should I fire from all the back here? Or should I flank around and hit them while they are busy?
Instead of asking people to find me targets, should I ask them to escort me?
Role warfare! We just created a new role! Escort!
Epic win, we just created a reason for the Trebuchet + Centurion duo of lore; Trebuchet LRM boat + LRM Centurion escort!
After all one LRM-10 would = 2 LRM 10s in effectiveness and 1 ton of 120 missiles would be equal to MWO giving you 240 missiles. We also doubled the risk to go with the reward, meaning that spam is gone and those missiles are valuable to the point that other players will protect the missile boat (if the missile boat appears to be competent).
Know what else we just did? We just gave people a reason to stop camping. Why? That missile boat only needs to catch you off guard and hit you to devastate you.
It'd be enough to provide this warning system once again.
Warning: Targeted.
Warning: Missile Lock.
Warning: Incoming missile. (Prefer to replace this one with a klaxxon like MW2.)
Vid with it.
Issue 2:
Spoiler
A group would negate some of it. But instead of 100+ missiles being fired 3 times per 10 seconds, it's 100+ missiles fired twice per 10 seconds. This means that there are gaps in time, reaction, etc.
If all the boats fire on this guy on the right, then you on the left have a window of opportunity that on average is 8.5 seconds long.
Even if they chain fired every launcher and had multiple launchers, you'd have at minimum 6.5 seconds assuming they all started firing in one coordinated effort.
Versus 1 second for the same 4 LRM-15 launchers chain fired right now regardless of whether they were coordinated or not.
In the end, no matter what, you have significantly more time to act. More time to coordinate, more time to bait and switch, more time to get in there and do something. Ultimately, everything is about having more time.
Issue Three:
Spoiler
Less ammo encourages boating? Well boat 4 LRM-15s that take 8.5 seconds to reload and fire again... and tell me if less ammo will encourage you to boat?
Because it would make carrying those weapons and that ammo harder.
You'd go through it faster.
You'd screw yourself on backup weapons, leading back to "melancholy of the missile boat" issue.
That was 6 minutes of helplessness. Too slow to get away. No backup weapons. No help from the team. Yeah, I never boated again without backup weapons. Never again.
So...
Less ammo makes boating the weapon systems themselves harder. Lets say you boated 4 LRM-15s.
One use = half a ton of ammunition. Two uses = 1 ton of ammo. So you make a 4 LRM-15 boat with 12 tons of ammo.
Congrats, you can use it 24 times. At what tonnage? 28 tons in launchers (without Artemis, with artemis it's 32 tons). 12 tons in ammo. That's 40 to 44 tons for something you can use 12 times. Gotta say in comparison...
This ROFLpult right now is more effective than the typical LRM boat will be after the change.
It's built with 6 LRM-15s and only 6 tons of ammo. It gets 12 shots total out of 48 tons and deadlier spam.
Or even this Roflwalker, which has 5 LRM-15s and 12 tons of ammo for 2160 missiles or 28.8 firings.
Gotta say, it seems to pay a LOT more to boat now, then after. Especially when you consider Paul's statement in one of the last 3 AtDs which said: "Repair and rearm is not off the table. It is on the backburner."
You're gonna pay for that ammo. That worthless ammo. Those worthless missiles.
Then you'll want some free. And when you get it PGI is DUMB enough to do a percentage, which means the more you boat the more you get free the heavier you boat.
Instead, after the changes you'd drop the number of launchers (because 2 LRM 20s = more efficient than 5 LRM-15s) in order to carry ammo.
Maths..
Spoiler
1.1 damage * 15 * 5 = 82.5 damage. * 3 firings = 247.5 (but most of this will miss).
2.2 damage * 20 * 2 = 88 * 2 firings = 176, but in skilled hands this will always hit.
2.0 damage * 20 * 2 = 80 * 2 firings = 160, in skilled hands this will always hit.
In the end, we made them matter more, but we didn't do anything overpowered at all.
And since that ammo is twice as valuable to you than the current ammo and reloading is half the cost of total cost (or it was), you'd pay 30,060 /2 = 15,030 per ton of ammo. You wanna pay that for 180 missiles of 1.1 damage, or for 120 missiles of 2.0 to 2.2 damage? Because back when they first did this, missiles did 1.9 damage + splash which could get any single individual missile to do up to 27 damage (due to a bug, evidently the cap was supposed to be 5 damage?)
Even without that argument, no matter what, twin LRM-20s after this is a LOT more efficient than 5 LRM-15s, there isn't a need to boat so much to be effective. You can now concentrate on some ammo and much more tons in backup weapons or engine power or armor, because when you give away your position, it will matter that much more.
We've essentially negated the need to boat at all. And those who do just got on the top of everyone's "to kill" list.
The game will be engaging.
And engaging games have much more player retention.
With 'minor' LRM boats instead of 'major' boats, they will be faster, more cunning, and perhaps popular even on mediums and lights. Mixed boats will definitely appear.
Now consider this.. With a new and very real threat, new metas will have to develop to counter them.
This means poptarting which translates to camping is probably screwed since dumb firing missiles will be incredibly valuable.
Camping in general.. a strong risk.
Take the high ground? Just wait until the LRMs can see you from afar.
"I do think one problem is ammunition -- not counts per ton, but tons per 'Mech. Boating should be about burst at the expense of endurance."
Spoiler
Well, the only way to limit that is to make the tons less effective. If 12 tons can give me 2160 missiles, yeah I'm gonna slap it on with 5 LRM-15s.
If 12 tons only gives me 1440, I'm not gonna be so eager to slap on 5 LRM-15s and 12 tons of ammo.
I'll be trading some LRM-15s for some lasers and more heatsinks, and maybe carry 2 LRM-15s and 6 tons of ammo for 720 missiles. After all, I can't fire them anywhere near as often, I won't need so many anyway.
Just solved your missile tons per mech problem without any convoluted systems. In fact, I did absolutely nothing but let the idea I had run its course.
Besides in TT, it's only 120 missiles per ton. But those missiles that do hit were 1 damage to 1 armor, where here we're doing 1.1 damage to 2 armor. This would change it to anywhere from 2 to 2.2 damage to 2 armor, giving us a 1 to 1.1 ratio to 1 with the source material. And while every gun except the Gauss Rifle can fire three times or more, most LRMs will only fire twice and require just as much if not more skill than any direct fire weapon.
WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:
LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!
your one of those slow atlas pilots without ams waddling across caustic valley alone and expect to eat 2000 lrm's and have only yellow armer are you
I am entitled to give my opinion as much as others. *Shrug* I been playing these games since the late 70s... Skill in the proper sense of the word does not exist here.
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I do this all day long posting on this forum! Is that "skill"???
I am entitled to give my opinion as much as others. *Shrug* I been playing these games since the late 70s... Skill in the proper sense of the word does not exist here.
Drag point and click
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Point Click and drag
I do this all day long posting on this forum! Is that "skill"???
You are somewhere near the bottom. I know this, because LRMs aren't a problem once you're even into average land.
True. I think i recently moved up into very slightly higher than average land, and it's a PITA trying to find people stupid enough to stand in the open
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Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 June 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:
