684 replies to this topic

[ecued]

if i had my way all my opponents would be allowed to bring is lrms, you just cant stand their and let them hit you, but even in the slowest mechs between ecm ,ams, and cover, they are really just good for crowd control, of coarse, unless you get hit by 300 at the same time, then you have issues.

Edited by ecued, 15 July 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[Zerberus]

Mavairo, on 14 July 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

There can't be THAT many on Team Derp in this game, if with next to no effort on my part, I've climbed up high enough that LRMs that are fielded in heavy numbers are as rare as seeing Awesomes.

Think of how good the average player is.

Now realize that approximately half will be worse.

This was statistics 101 for today.

[Lexx]

Every time I've died to massed LRM fire, it was because I made a mistake and I knew it. There are lots of things you can do to avoid getting hit by LRMs. I just love that new radar deprivation module!

[MeiSooHaityu]

C-LRMs are getting a nerf...Their minum range is being lifted! Oh wait...NM.

I guess LRMs aren't powerful enough (especially Clan).

[Zerberus]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 July 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

C-LRMs are getting a nerf...Their minum range is being lifted! Oh wait...NM.

I guess LRMs aren't powerful enough (especially Clan).

Well, when you think about it clan LRMs ARE weaker that IS LRMs due to the ripple-firing, at least when viewed on a missile per missile basis. Target has more time to find cover, easier to see where they`re coming from, easier to counter with ams.

In theory this is balanced out by the ability to carry more larger launchers.

However, in practice the clan mechs that have enough missile hardpoints to do so don`t have the tonnage to use them effectively. The LRM 100 Summoner is an armorless jokebuild with 7 tons of ammo max, the most you can get realistically on something and still use it effectively is 3 Artemis 15s or 55 non artemis tubes and 4 MPL on a warhawk. You can get 70 tubes on a warhawk (IIRC the B CT)and fill the rest with ammo, but you`ll still be underweight.

So the reduction of the minimum range drawback actually kind of makes sense with the clan LRMS just to bring them in line with IS LRMs without turning them into IS LRMs.

[Xyroc]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

Please ... have you seen LRMs chase light mechs ( that are actually fast )? Most of them hit the ground.

Dont walk in open ground stick to walking next to cover. Just like IRL in a combat situation you dont walk down the middle of the street you hug the sides of the street to minimize exposure and know where to keep your weapons aimed.

Edited by Beliall, 15 July 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

No cover on Caustic Valley. Very little on Canyon. Most maps actually have large areas where there is absolutely no cover. LRMs are starting to get a bit out of control. They should be pretty bad since they take absolutely no skill to use. Mechwarrior 4 LRMs at least tracked to where you were aiming so a good LRM boater would hold on the target where he/she was aiming. MWO LRMs just hit the CT and arc over nearly all but the highest and steepest forms of cover.

[wanderer]

Quote

No cover on Caustic Valley. Very little on Canyon.

Anyone stupid enough to go center finds no cover in Caustic, but there's abundant cover around it towards the edges of the map.

Canyon walls are enough to stuff missiles if you hug them, also boulders a-plenty.

People who circle the caldera without ECM are missilebait. People who waltz along atop the canyons in the open? Missile bait. PUG lemmings that routinely hit the same map areas and get pummeled, followed by going "Buuuuut the LUUUUUUUURMS!". The only way to change that is to learn the map and stop using the same "charge at them by the shortest straight line and get bombed" tactic.
Then you can get up said missile boat's nose and blow their mechanical brains out and stop being bad about LRMs.

Edited by wanderer, 15 July 2014 - 08:49 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Zerberus, on 15 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well, when you think about it clan LRMs ARE weaker that IS LRMs due to the ripple-firing, at least when viewed on a missile per missile basis. Target has more time to find cover, easier to see where they`re coming from, easier to counter with ams.

In theory this is balanced out by the ability to carry more larger launchers.

However, in practice the clan mechs that have enough missile hardpoints to do so don`t have the tonnage to use them effectively. The LRM 100 Summoner is an armorless jokebuild with 7 tons of ammo max, the most you can get realistically on something and still use it effectively is 3 Artemis 15s or 55 non artemis tubes and 4 MPL on a warhawk. You can get 70 tubes on a warhawk (IIRC the B CT)and fill the rest with ammo, but you`ll still be underweight.

So the reduction of the minimum range drawback actually kind of makes sense with the clan LRMS just to bring them in line with IS LRMs without turning them into IS LRMs.

I was kidding more than anything in my post, but good reply regardless.

[Wolfways]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 15 July 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

No cover on Caustic Valley. Very little on Canyon. Most maps actually have large areas where there is absolutely no cover. LRMs are starting to get a bit out of control. They should be pretty bad since they take absolutely no skill to use. Mechwarrior 4 LRMs at least tracked to where you were aiming so a good LRM boater would hold on the target where he/she was aiming. MWO LRMs just hit the CT and arc over nearly all but the highest and steepest forms of cover.

A good example of how to get everything possible wrong. You should work for PGI.

From the patch notes:
"To keep some balance in keeping these Long-Ranged Missiles as Long-Ranged weapons,"
Does anyone at PGI actually use LRM's ever? How is a weapon that is practically worthless at more than about half its max range a long range weapon?! Especially a weapon that didn't get a full range increase in the first place!

[Zolaz]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 15 July 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

No cover on Caustic Valley. Very little on Canyon. Most maps actually have large areas where there is absolutely no cover. LRMs are starting to get a bit out of control. They should be pretty bad since they take absolutely no skill to use. Mechwarrior 4 LRMs at least tracked to where you were aiming so a good LRM boater would hold on the target where he/she was aiming. MWO LRMs just hit the CT and arc over nearly all but the highest and steepest forms of cover.

If you want cover run an ECM boat or get a Radar Deprivation module and dont over extend. I would give you more advice but I dont think you would listen. With just a little effort on your part you could read the NUMEROUS other threads that tell you how to handle LRMs. Well, real world solutions that dont include QQ on the Forums because the game is too hard for you.

[Mavairo]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 14 July 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

You can circle jerk all you want pretending to be great players and everyone who disagrees it awful but the facts will remain facts despite your bias. In the PUG queue (which is a pretty good majority based on the only official stats i have seen) multiple lrms racks from multiple mechs (talking about 60+ volleys at a time) with spotter(s) will win the game nearly every time with little effort required beyond looking at a person but thankfully aren't common enough anymore thanks to separate queues. In the group queue balance is a pile of crap anyway because people min/max to hell and mostly just pop tart/snipe/FLD/NARC&lrmspam their way to wins anyway.

The PUG queue is the funnest it has ever been, despite some mostly lrm induced cover humps, now that the tryhards can't ruin it with abusive compositions and far superior coordination compared to people just looking for some stompy robot action without all the commitments. You can actually try fun and interesting builds without abysmal results because everyone isn't using cut and paste cookie cutter builds developed to be least risk/highest reward in coordination with dozens of people and forums. The simple fact is premades were the reason we can't have nice things all along, just like I tried to tell everyone.

I mention all the to counter the arguments that the lrms lack of representation at high level play means they shouldn't be changed. The natural predator to lrms is ECM which is abundant and intelligently used in group play. Good coordination and communication are also key in countering lrm fire. Guess what can be controlled and accounted for when you know who and what your teammates are dropping with. The fact of the matter is lrms need a fundamental change such that they are never overpowering and never utterly useless. This means both buffs and nerfs. Both high level and lower levels of play need to be considered and really the one with the most people playing in it should be the primary concern as far as balance goes. IF YOU WANT A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS YOU APPEAL TO THE MAJORITY OF CUSTOMERS (players) that's kinda business 101.

TBH if they really want to alleviate some of the balance concerns they should put in a game mode with multiple mech (different mechs preferably, not so much just respawning, and preferably with ejecting implemented and required) drops per match with an objective that requires spreading out and takes less time to complete than killing all the enemy team's "lives." Then simple mistakes don't take you out of the match permanently and newer players aren't such a drag on the team as they can still come back to prevent stomps caused by 2-4 dumb teammates running off to die alone leaving their teammates without meat shields or additional firepower.

First, no one's circle jerking. That's just messy. Especially without someone standing in the center to be the "catcher".
Back before the match maker put 2 to 4 mans in right along with the 12s, it was VERY common for me to go entire nights without seeing a single LRM Boat. Now that there is simply the Group Que, it's been pretty much since the group ques existence since I've seen a full on dedicated lrm boat. Like I said, I'm middle high, or maybe a low high ELO player. I don't even see (C) mechs really anymore in my matches. After a certain point people move beyond certain things, one of which is LRM use. The playing population that advances will favor weapons that are at least functional if not exceptional in 99 percent of circumstances once they understand core mechanics. Something most people can and will eventually pick up on in my experience.

The only time LRMs become a dominant factor is when there aren't people on the field who are willing to counter them and wipe them cleanly off the field. This is why their use was so spartan in my ELO bracket range BEFORE the group que, and why they're nearly non existent now in the Group Que. For the record you don't even have to go Meta to get to the range I'm in. I still see quite a few laser boats, mixed loadouts (usually SRM and AC, or SRM and Lasers), and quite a few mech chassis. Hell I'm still chugging along with a solid win rate in my TDRs that are laser and SRM boats, one of which even has 2 MGs on it and I fielded it a tournament, against Two Different Teams.

There aren't many Dedicated Teams running LRMs, certainly not in my bracket range in the group que. If there are I've yet to see them. Even Seeing them, this far past ELO's introduction says more about YOUR ability than it does the game balance, because frankly? LRMs are pretty pathetic weapons.

There is not a Single aspect of LRMs that are not out right inferior to nearly every other weapon on the field. (the Flamer is the only exception I can really think of, maybe the small pulse laser?) There's nothing to Nerf. You don't even need ECM to wipe an LRM team right off the board, hell just 2 guys out of 12 in 80 kph or better mechs willing to go and hunt them down and put an end to the rain is all it takes in 90 percent of circumstances.

If anything they should do, is make a proper damn Tutorial. The one that currently exists, is a complete farce. I also firmly believe in a "mentor Program" which is something we as a community could do easily enough, if PGI would sponsor it and advertise it.

Sorbic, on 15 July 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

I thought you started with an middle of the road, not low elo rating.

Mid tier is low, due to the fact that is where the newbies start at. With a 1400 ELO spread, there are very good odds that you'll get the Underhive in your matches in a mid ELO mech. Sure there's odds that you'll get people like me who are likely upper middle or low high in your matches once in a while but the MM seems that every time I've leveled a new weight class, that it favors putting mids and Low ELO together more so than High and Middles when you yourself are a middle. Mid to low ELO, is where you'll see LRMs the most. Once you get to the point that you go from "wow that's alot of LRM boats" to, "oh wow, hey guys there's an actual LRM boat over there" due to rarity You can pretty safely say where you've found yourself.

Edited by Mavairo, 15 July 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[Karamarka]

LRM got buffed big time

caustic valley is a nightmare, 20% in 2 seconds

[El Bandito]

Karamarka, on 15 July 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

LRM got buffed big time

caustic valley is a nightmare, 20% in 2 seconds

Then you have made a serious derp mistake. Never in my MWO experience over 2 years, I have seen, or been brought to 20% in 2 seconds by anything. Now if you mean you took 20% damage in 2 secs, then that is more reasonable but still means you derped.

And how is LRM splash being removed makes it a buff? It is a nerf. Only the Clan version of the LRMs now have bit of damage under minimum range. If you want to cry about LRMs, then cry about Clan LRMs. Be more specific. Clan LRMs and IS LRMs have very pronounced differences.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 July 2014 - 12:43 AM.

[627]

getting down to 20% is a quest on it's own, most mechs die with 50-30% overall health.

Best bet would be a cent or another tanky mech, but with LRMs in 2 seconds? doubtful that you didn't die. They home for CT, in the end...

[Karenai]

LRMs are where they should be in the case of IS versions. Sometimes you are usless, sometimes you do more then 1k damage. What the direct damage only patch did, was making dumbfire even worse and Artemis IV even more mandetory. For lock on LRM nothing much changed, maybe less random shoulder destruction.

Also cover is now even more effective.

Edited by Karenai, 16 July 2014 - 12:55 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Still waiting for LRMs to have their appropriate 1.0 damage per missile values ... nuff said.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Zolaz, on 15 July 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

If you want cover run an ECM boat or get a Radar Deprivation module and dont over extend. I would give you more advice but I dont think you would listen. With just a little effort on your part you could read the NUMEROUS other threads that tell you how to handle LRMs. Well, real world solutions that dont include QQ on the Forums because the game is too hard for you.

Find me a mech that goes between 60 and 100+ that can use ECM and isn't a joke build. I can wait. you can't just walk laterally and magically a dome shield appears and guards you from the rain of missiles unless you move very fast. All I know is it doesn't do sh*t in a warhawk going 71 kph but cause all the missile to hit one side and blow it off quicker.

Btw I don't care much at all about the min range removal because they don't live long enough at that range to cause significant damage with the lrms usually (unless it's late game and you've taken a good bit of damage already) and it would be his other lrm supporting teammates that do all of the damage to me since he would be spotting for them. The added impulse from the registered missiles hits would be the primary concern but generally not a big enough impact at <180m ranges for the builds that want to get that close. I still think the impulse for an lrm 20 missiles hitting at once should be close to an ac/20 and each individual missiles should have 1/20th of that such that streaming missiles would do less overall impulse than packs of them.

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 16 July 2014 - 01:50 AM.

[Sorbic]

El Bandito, on 16 July 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

Then you have made a serious derp mistake. Never in my MWO experience over 2 years, I have seen, or been brought to 20% in 2 seconds by anything. Now if you mean you took 20% damage in 2 secs, then that is more reasonable but still means you derped.

This is a common issue with folks talking about things. They read with the intent to respond instead of listening, and dismiss others points without giving them a moments thought. Caustic simply doesn't have much effective cover where your team usually congregates. However LRMs aren't USUALLY too bad because the nature of the map makes breaking los easy. However if someone drops a UAV (at least lrm love is spread with this one) or if you get narc'ed... well you better hope the enemy doesn't have a lot of lrms because you are probably going to get chewed up by a bunch of people who can't even see you. How does that translate to him derping? Maybe he did, or maybe there was an enterprising scout... Hell, I've burned through 2 tons of AMS ammo in 2 minutes while it tried to mitigate damage to my team.

For the most part LRMs are fine. Except for running out of ammo I can do about the same damage as I do on my other mechs and don't tend to have a big problem with damage from them. However it's a simple fact that getting nuked by a ton of indirect lrms can ruin folks gaming experience. Really, I'd like to see indirect damage reduced (or just reduced when multiple mechs are shooting the same target) but remove the ECM hard counter when you have LOS. Maybe just make it slow LOS lock time and continue working the same for mechs you don't have LOS on.

[Zerberus]

Karamarka, on 15 July 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

LRM got buffed big time

caustic valley is a nightmare, 20% in 2 seconds

The only way this is mathematically possible is if you mean 2 seconds from when you stood perfectly still 200m infront of at least 2 lrm 60+ boats in a low-armored locust.

Because even a locust has 138 AP and 69 IS, meaning you should still even have more than 20% left or already be dead. 2 seconds -.7 seconds average human reaction time = 1.3 secionds launch and flight time (assuming full alphas which boats rarely drop) = approx 200m.

So you`re saying that a tonnage of weapons that probably weighs 50%-150% more than your entire mech (between 8x3.5t (=28t)+ ammo for 2xcLRM15/60 and 8x7t (=56t!!) + Ammo for 2xLRM15/60) shoudn`t hurt like hell when you stand right in front of it and make a derp face?

Do you honestly think that 8PPCs (same approximate tonnage w/ HS instead of ammo) would have been less painful? How about 4 AC 20s or 4 gauss? Or 28-56 medium lasers?

"OMG!! I stood in front of a firing squad and was shot!!!! That`s not supposed to happen!!!" Yes, it is, that`s EXACTLY what is supposed to happen.

Edited by Zerberus, 16 July 2014 - 10:06 AM.