684 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Yeah like I didn't realize that.. you can choose how many meta mechs you engage though. If you engage anyone though you get all the LRM boats too. So there is a difference but once again, no desire here to nerf them.

If they all camp in the same area and poptart in unison (or more or less in unison) you will die even faster and even more miserably, just like you would if all the LRM boats were within range of you,

[Gas Guzzler]

Sephlock, on 17 July 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

If they all camp in the same area and poptart in unison (or more or less in unison) you will die even faster and even more miserably, just like you would if all the LRM boats were within range of you,

That's beside the point. I am saying you choose when you engage a jump sniper. When you choose to engage any one person, you automatically are forced to deal with every LRM boat, which makes it different than engaging jump snipers. Say you see one individual and you hop down into a canyon to engage them in a brawl, then you find out that the team has 4 LRM boats 1000 meters away who automatically get a lock on you and can just bring the rain. Jump snipers can't do that.

Anyway, I'm not saying that LRMs need to be nerfed at all, I am just saying why they appear to be extra annoying to some people.

[Sephlock]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

That's beside the point. I am saying you choose when you engage a jump sniper. When you choose to engage any one person, you automatically are forced to deal with every LRM boat, which makes it different than engaging jump snipers. Say you see one individual and you hop down into a canyon to engage them in a brawl, then you find out that the team has 4 LRM boats 1000 meters away who automatically get a lock on you and can just bring the rain. Jump snipers can't do that.

Anyway, I'm not saying that LRMs need to be nerfed at all, I am just saying why they appear to be extra annoying to some people.

I think you have a very unrealistic picture of how LRM boating tends to work out in actual matches.

Even if every single one of my pug teammates is an LRM boat, I am extremely lucky if ANY of them feel like contributing when I have narced a target unless they are literally standing motionless staring in the same direction as the enemy.

And that's assuming they aren't all scattered.

I dunno, maybe it's an ELO bracket difference, or a times-played difference, or some combination of the two, or something altogether.... but in my experience by the time people get good enough (or start to display enough situational awareness) to cooperate with teammates like that, they've largely moved on to FLD or at least lasers.

*edit*
For example, they might start piloting a dual PPC puma or a more practical mech with a similar build, and as soon as I or someone else on my team spots someone, they dart out or poptart and pelt the target with fire, achieving much the same "nasty surprise" effect.
*edit*

I can see that being annoying to encounter, though.

OTOH, you know what *I* find annoying? An entire enemy team that has at least 1 ECM mech (2 or more is horrific) that just camps out at extreme ranges, well beyond Tag range, and pelts you with occasional shots.

If you dare get within Tag range you still have to deal with FLD (hell, even laser users can rake you a bit and then duck back long before your missiles arrive) and will get focused down long before you can do any appreciable amount of damage.

The result is that unless you also have FLD or are willing to play the laser-raking game, you are effectively useless until the outcome of the match has already been determined.

Edited by Sephlock, 17 July 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Sephlock, on 17 July 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

I think you have a very unrealistic picture of how LRM boating tends to work out in actual matches.

Even if every single one of my pug teammates is an LRM boat, I am extremely lucky if ANY of them feel like contributing when I have narced a target unless they are literally standing motionless staring in the same direction as the enemy.

And that's assuming they aren't all scattered.

I dunno, maybe it's an ELO bracket difference, or a times-played difference, or some combination of the two, or something altogether.... but in my experience by the time people get good enough (or start to display enough situational awareness) to cooperate with teammates like that, they've largely moved on to FLD or at least lasers.

*edit*
For example, they might start piloting a dual PPC puma or a more practical mech with a similar build, and as soon as I or someone else on my team spots someone, they dart out or poptart and pelt the target with fire, achieving much the same "nasty surprise" effect.
*edit*

I can see that being annoying to encounter, though.

OTOH, you know what *I* find annoying? An entire enemy team that has at least 1 ECM mech (2 or more is horrific) that just camps out at extreme ranges, well beyond Tag range, and pelts you with occasional shots.

If you dare get within Tag range you still have to deal with FLD (hell, even laser users can rake you a bit and then duck back long before your missiles arrive) and will get focused down long before you can do any appreciable amount of damage.

The result is that unless you also have FLD or are willing to play the laser-raking game, you are effectively useless until the outcome of the match has already been determined.

I don't think ELO has anything to do it... I just know that I go to engage folks and then have to retreat back in to cover to escape the LRMs coming from the sky as far as I am concerned because I have no LoS with the source, but that's no different from being pinned down by jump snipers, or ERLL snipers or anything for that matter.

I'm sorry that makes your LRMs not work. Is that the only form of playing you enjoy?

[Sephlock]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

I don't think ELO has anything to do it... I just know that I go to engage folks and then have to retreat back in to cover to escape the LRMs coming from the sky as far as I am concerned because I have no LoS with the source, but that's no different from being pinned down by jump snipers, or ERLL snipers or anything for that matter.

I'm sorry that makes your LRMs not work. Is that the only form of playing you enjoy?

No, but:

1: It sure does suck when I have dedicated some tonnage to LRMs (although it hurts less in a Clan mech).

2: It also screws over brawling, which is and always has been my favorite mode of play... which is rather unfortunate for me, since PGI doesn't seem to like it very much at all.

Hell, an LRM mech can at least theoretically dumbfire and maybe hope to hit someone somehow, but a brawler? Have fun trying to hit someone with your SRMs at 700+ meters!

[kongman]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

just quit the game please ...........dont ever come back

[Aresye]

I honestly don't think anybody feels that direct fire is an issue. Most of the issues with LRMs almost always relate to their indirect fire.

I think missiles are kind of screwed simply because of other mechanics.

For example, I'd love to see missiles get both a speed and damage increase, but the only way to do that without becoming problematic would be to do away with the indirect fire altogether (with the exception of NARC and TAG), and the only way to go make non-narc/tag indirect fire go away would be to eliminate the shared targeting info that every mech gets for free, but you can't do that, because then the PP FLD crowd would render LRM mechs completely useless.

See the trend?

You can't fix missiles, because everything else is broke. The only way to make missiles more effective and viable without creating a complete ****storm of whining would require fixing indirect targeting info, which would require fixing ECM, which would require fixing missiles.

We literally have managed to create a paradox within the game, and it's the result of the way PGI has decided to fix elements of their game, favoring specific nerfs and new features (ex: radar dep) rather than fixing the core issues in the first place.

Like, just for kicks, here's how to make LRMs more viable and effective:
Step 1: Increase speed and damage of missiles.
Problem 1: Missiles become too effective due to indirect fire mechanics.
Step 2: Eliminate indirect fire mechanics save for narc and tag.
Problem 2: PP FLD becomes too effective due to a lack of indirect fire mechanics and ECM.
Step 3: Fix ECM so it protects only the mech carrying it.
Problem 3: ECM is on so few mechs.
Step 4: Allow more mechs to utilize ECM.
Problem 4: PP FLD becomes too effective.
Step 5: Fix PP FLD
Problem 5: Error: Cannot fix PP FLD without fixing ghost heat.
Step 6: Fix ghost heat.
Problem 6: Weapons out of balance and weapons boating becomes an issue.
Step 7: Fix weapon balance and boating.
Problem 7: Error: Cannot fix weapon balance and boating without fixing hard point design.
Step 8: Fix mech hardpoint system.
Problem 8: Too much time has passed. FTL travel now reality.
Step 9: Stop fixing MWO and GTFO Earth.
Problem 9: Multiple star systems colonized and new interstellar factions can't agree on interstellar policies.
Step 10: Use nukes to conquer worlds.
Problem 10: Nukes nearly wipe out multiple civilizations.
Step 11: Use BattleMechs instead.
Problem 11: BattleMech plans stolen and are now common place.
Step 12: Form a league encompassing the major factions to avoid war.
Problem 12: Periphery states not pleased.
Step 13: Wage war against periphery to force them into submission.
Problem 13: While away, some dude named Stefan Amaris ended up being a douche back at home.
Step 14: Retake terra and reestablish league.
Problem 14: Everybody wants to be First Lord. This can only end badly.
Step 15: GTFO Inner Sphere
Problem 15: Inner Sphere starts annihilating itself.
Step 16: Create society to become better people to return one day.
Problem 16: Some people don't like new society.
Step 17: Kill them.
Problem 17: People didn't like that.
Step 18: Give the people a new society.
Problem 18: People lost the reasons why they left in the first place.
Step 19: Invade the Inner Sphere out of purpose.
Problem 19: Clan mechs OP.

Edited by Aresye, 17 July 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[Kjudoon]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

Again?

I await proof of how easy it is with screen shots of 1400dmg 8 kill games in an LRMboat. 3-4 pictures should do nicely.

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 July 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[Lynx7725]

I like your Step 8 to Step 9 transition...

I wonder, though, whether LRMs just suffer from a branding issue. If I tell you that you are being attacked by Long Range Self-Destruct Drones, would it make more sense to you?

[pwnface]

LRMs are pretty good where they are right now IMO. They are annoying but generally not super lethal.

[Johnny Reb]

Heh, lrms don't need to be nerfed. Arty/Airstrikes do., I think having up to 24 of them in a single match really negates lrms, in 12 man play (care less about leagues). I'm no where near comp level, but have played against comp teams (in group, your safe pugs), when down early, they just unload one arty/air strike after another(think in lesser group matches its when threatened, so they dont unleash the full fury). All this gripe about lrms in the newer ppl is cause thats what they see, however arty isnt used on you. I am fine with arty/air as is just feel it should be limited to uses per match.

[Kjudoon]

Arty/Airstrikes just got nerfed 4 weeks ago. Now they're exactly where they need to be... with one exception:

The price needs to be 2-4 times higher. People interested in spamming Arty should pay a much more severe cost. It would cut down on seeing 5-10 Arty/Air strikes in the group queue per game from each team.

[Johnny Reb]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

Arty/Airstrikes just got nerfed 4 weeks ago. Now they're exactly where they need to be... with one exception:

The price needs to be 2-4 times higher. People interested in spamming Arty should pay a much more severe cost. It would cut down on seeing 5-10 Arty/Air strikes in the group queue per game from each team.

Disagree, need to be limited to amount used per match. Cost matters not to high level play. If the lords and steel jags meet up I bet its arty/air all the time till the final rush by either team.

[Kjudoon]

Id be happy to see it only function if you have Tag or Command console. Reasonable demands right there. But damage and spread had been spread out and cut back.

Every time you run into a competative team you will see 2 things. They are ALWAYS moving and interweaving movement making it impossible to lock or focus fire and you will eat 7+ arty/Air strikes from just before you first see them till you're all dead.

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 July 2014 - 10:56 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

Id be happy to see it only function if you have Tag or Command console. Reasonable demands right there. But damage and spread had been spread out and cut back.

Not my issue/grip. I don't like how many can be fired in any given match.

edit: and its a grip born of all these lrm nerf posts that piss me off. I feel this is a better grip at least for us mid-level 12 mans.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 17 July 2014 - 10:59 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Max load is 12 arty and 12 air strikes per team if they really wanted to.

BTW, if you're saying "limit" or "Nerf" these things, why would you not use an appropriate methodology that would both work, and not create anything new like price?

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 July 2014 - 10:59 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

Max load is 12 arty and 12 air strikes per team if they really wanted to.

BTW, if you're saying "limit" or "Nerf" these things, why would you not use an appropriate methodology that would both work, and not create anything new like price?

I want a limit of say 4-6 total per team used a match, no other change.

edit so if a team brought said 24 they could not use them after said amount was used.

edit2: better adjustment to anything they could do with lrms.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 17 July 2014 - 11:05 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Then I want 1 ECM set per match per side. Sounds fair, don't it?

Look, I hate getting AA Spam all the time too, thats why you price it out of the market. You want to spam it like that to win a pointless match? I want you to lose money, get no damage credit or XP for what it does.

Making a single shot of arty 150k would make many players second guess bringing it or be very careful on using it. Right now it's tonnage rangeless damage chances. It was supposed to stop "murderballs". Now it's an exploit (since we're having threads about pseudo-exploits let's call this one as well). But every mech can carry it and use it at unlimited range for cheap. SO... make it expensive, limit the mechs that can carry it to those with either TAG or a command console (which also limits the range) and the problem solves itself by dealing with the root cause: Cheap consequence free damage.

Thats how you deal with it. Go for the causes, not create a new band-aid that ignores it.

[Johnny Reb]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

Then I want 1 ECM set per match per side. Sounds fair, don't it?

Look, I hate getting AA Spam all the time too, thats why you price it out of the market. You want to spam it like that to win a pointless match? I want you to lose money, get no damage credit or XP for what it does.

Making a single shot of arty 150k would make many players second guess bringing it or be very careful on using it. Right now it's tonnage rangeless damage chances. It was supposed to stop "murderballs". Now it's an exploit (since we're having threads about pseudo-exploits let's call this one as well). But every mech can carry it and use it at unlimited range for cheap. SO... make it expensive, limit the mechs that can carry it to those with either TAG or a command console (which also limits the range) and the problem solves itself by dealing with the root cause: Cheap consequence free damage.

Thats how you deal with it. Go for the causes, not create a new band-aid that ignores it.

Well if your team wants to run it sure get that ecm. Your adjustments to arty/air also sound reasonable, I just was putting out a quick fix. That said, I feel its a bigger issue than lrms! At least to us non 12 man coordinated groups dropping against 12 man coordinated groups.

[Kjudoon]

Actually, my team doesnt run much Arty/Air unless in a competition. Well some of the companies do. I know you were suggesting a quick fix and it would have been fine if we didn't have a more permenant solution available that uses the tools we have available. (just like real life, subsidize something with cheap prices, you get more of it. tax it, less.) Might as well do the same thing here. Hard to save up for that new mech when you're losing 50-100k Cbills per game because winning by AAspam is more important.

Choose your fate I guess.

At least LRMs take up lots of slots and tonnage and aren't cheap per sey, but they're not horribly expensive, are seriously nerfed and countered too, so they're dealt with no matter what the LRMHatorz scream and QQ about.

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 July 2014 - 11:16 PM.