684 replies to this topic

[Johnny Reb]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Actually, my team doesnt run much Arty/Air unless in a competition. Well some of the companies do. I know you were suggesting a quick fix and it would have been fine if we didn't have a more permenant solution available that uses the tools we have available. (just like real life, subsidize something with cheap prices, you get more of it. tax it, less.) Might as well do the same thing here. Hard to save up for that new mech when you're losing 50-100k Cbills per game because winning by AAspam is more important.

Choose your fate I guess.

At least LRMs take up lots of slots and tonnage and aren't cheap per sey, but they're not horribly expensive, are seriously nerfed and countered too, so they're dealt with no matter what the LRMHatorz scream and QQ about.

I really made this argument cause I hate the lrms need to be nerfed crap. I think its a very top level comp issue but we get it still in our mid level comp 12 man drops, especially if the lights get killed quick. I really brought it up so the lower ppl see there issues greater the higher you go than the lrm boogyman.

edit: that said I think is a legitimate issue!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 17 July 2014 - 11:23 PM.

[Rando Slim]

@ Zerberus "So, in other words, remove them completely, because by the time the missiles get there every remotely intelligent person that took lasers or ACs instead will have completely shredded teh LRM mech and moved back into cover.

Unless they get the speed of the gauss, which considering they`re rocket propelled would make sense....

OH, but WAIT!! Then they would actually WORK WELL for direct fire, just as well as lasers and PPCs, despite needing a lock first and a target stupid enough to stand still. And lock on weapons are still no skill, right? SO targeting will have to be removed, right? Making them just another autocannon for the people that can`t be arsed to think farther than Duck Hunt Online.

Stupid idea is stupid no matter how you spin it."

Dude, no. As someone else said, just make them work like streaks unless TAG or NARC is involved. Do you need a target to be stupid and stand still with streaks? No, and you wouldn't in this case either. It wasn't hard to understand. Where the hell you gonna run to at the bottom of one of those canyons in canyon network when the lrm boat is above you on a ridge only 400m away? Oh right, your gonna get ***** by them still. I'm so tired of people acting like theres just loads of GOOD cover everywhere. And even if there is some, you have to get yourself at the right angle in relation to the lrms or it will curve round it anyway. And then theres other times where moving to that spot protects you from the lrms, but then opens you up from a different angle to be shot by direct fire like say on Forest colony. Some say that's "strategy" I say its bad map design. Its not a black and white issue. And if as you say, that all other direct fire weapons are vastly superior, then if I'm standing or moving around on a ridge firing LRMs and I have two direct fire buddies right next to me or an ECM mech, well then whose the priority target? By your logic it wouldn't be the LRM boat, so he'd be able to fire off several salvos at a target he can see before hes forced to move from return fire like everyone else. Like what you assume the LRM boat would be by itself or something? When the heck was the last time you saw that? I suck and I don't even see people by themselves in my ELO bracket and if I do its certainly never a missile boat. The whole idea of a light mech knife-fighter going commando and taking out a lrm boat is a pipe-dream anymore. Its not rocket science people. It would work just fine. Yea sure the comp guys wouldn't use it but I don't care about them because they only use 4-5 weapons in the whole game on a small handful of mechs and only represent 5-10 percent of the playerbase.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 18 July 2014 - 12:01 AM.

[Johnny Reb]

Scrotacus 42, on 17 July 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

"So, in other words, remove them completely, because by the time the missiles get there every remotely intelligent person that took lasers or ACs instead will have completely shredded teh LRM mech and moved back into cover.

Unless they get the speed of the gauss, which considering they`re rocket propelled would make sense....

OH, but WAIT!! Then they would actually WORK WELL for direct fire, just as well as lasers and PPCs, despite needing a lock first and a target stupid enough to stand still. And lock on weapons are still no skill, right? SO targeting will have to be removed, right? Making them just another autocannon for the people that can`t be arsed to think farther than Duck Hunt Online.

Stupid idea is stupid no matter how you spin it."

Dude, no. As someone else said, just make them work like streaks unless TAG or NARC is involved. Do you need a target to be stupid and stand still with streaks? No, and you wouldn't in this case either. It wasn't hard to understand. Where the hell you gonna run to at the bottom of one of those canyons in canyon network when the lrm boat is above you on a ridge only 400m away? Oh right, your gonna get ***** by them still. I'm so tired of people acting like theres just loads of GOOD cover everywhere. And even if there is some, you have to get yourself at the right angle in relation to the lrms or it will curve round it anyway. And then theres other times where moving to that spot protects you from the lrms, but then opens you up from a different angle to be shot by direct fire like say on Forest colony. Some say that's "strategy" I say its bad map design. Its not a black and white issue. And if as you say, that all other direct fire weapons are vastly superior, then if I'm standing or moving around on a ridge firing LRMs and I have two direct fire buddies right next to me or an ECM mech, well then whose the priority target? By your logic it wouldn't be the LRM boat, so he'd be able to fire off several salvos at a target he can see before hes forced to move from return fire like everyone else. Its not rocket science people. It would work just fine. Yea sure the comp guys wouldn't use it but I don't care about them because they only use 4-5 weapons in the whole game on a small handful of mechs. Stop being so dang insulting.

Who are you addressing this post too? Nothing to do with what im talking about.

[Rando Slim]

Im sorry, it was a response to someone on page 17 who didn't like what I had said. I tried to use the quote function but the content won't show up. And BTW, I do agree that arty/airstrike is an issue. I dabble in 12 mans when I have to. And I almost never have any fun with it because of arty. IMO it should be limited to maybe 5-6 per match and should only even function at all if you have a UAV up over the enemy and someone with the command console goes in and uses the battlemap to call it in on a coordinate. Either that or just get rid of it altogether.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 17 July 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[Wolfways]

At this point I'm just sick of LRM's being pretty much useless for anything but indirect-fire and they never will be because of the constant whining. I couldn't care anymore if PGI removed indirect-fire tbh as long as they buffed LRM's to be decent (for a spread damage weapon).
And remove the stupid warning so LRM's can actually be a long range weapon.

Imo:
Reduce the impulse (not that i care about that).
Indirect-fire only on TAG, NARC, UAV.
Increase AOE when fired indirect (less damage).
Remove the warning (To help with long range).
Increase missile speed to 500m/s+ (They need to be long range! Also increase SRM speed).
Decrease RoF by 20-30% (I don't think it's needed, but some do).
Increase damage by 20-50% (1.10 damage/missile is pathetic for a weapon that has had the biggest nerf in the transition from TT. A long range weapon that could always fire to a medium range weapon that is very situational. And yes i know nobody will agree with this.)
Fix ECM to do what it is supposed to do in "A Battletech game".
Increase ammo/ton for all ammo-based weapons to make stock mechs more viable.

[Demoncard]

Wolfways, on 18 July 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

Increase missile speed to 500m/s

No.

They're lurms. Slow, obnoxious projectiles that like to hit objects instead of adjusting their arcs to account for them. 500m/s is too fast.

Edited by Demoncard, 18 July 2014 - 03:08 AM.

[Wolfways]

Demoncard, on 18 July 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

No.

They're lurms. Slow, obnoxious projectiles that like to hit objects instead of adjusting their arcs to account for them. 500m/s is too fast.

Who says they're slow? Well they are in MWO...
Should SRM's be slowed too?

Edited by Wolfways, 18 July 2014 - 03:11 AM.

[Demoncard]

Wolfways, on 18 July 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

Should SRM's be slowed too?

No, but doesn't the thought of being hit by 500m/s LRMS frighten you? You have two seconds to react from a kilometre away. That's nowhere near balanced.

[Wolfways]

Demoncard, on 18 July 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

No, but doesn't the thought of being hit by 500m/s LRMS frighten you? You have two seconds to react from a kilometre away. That's nowhere near balanced.

No, because i rarely have to react. I already move around using cover.
Also, i already said the warning should be removed to make them viable at long range, just like other long ranged weapons.

How about 300m/s then? Same as SRM's. AFAIK they are basically the same thing except have the electronics removed for a bigger warhead.

Edited by Wolfways, 18 July 2014 - 03:25 AM.

[wanderer]

Arty/airstrikes was adjusted in the right direction. It just needs two things:

1) Drop damage down to 30 per shell/32 bomb. Arty randomly one-shotting undamaged targets needs to go if they had the sense to use full head armor.
2) Add a single shell/bomb to the arty/airstrike patterns and widen the spread/lengthen the space between bombs a bit. Red smoke becomes less concentrated ouch and more area-softening firepower.

Cost means nothing in the long run. Comp teams will spend what they need to get the win if it's available. Widening the delay between strikes would help mitigate the ability to blitz people with the relatively fast.

[Kjudoon]

Wolfways, on 18 July 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

No, because i rarely have to react. I already move around using cover.
Also, i already said the warning should be removed to make them viable at long range, just like other long ranged weapons.

How about 300m/s then? Same as SRM's. AFAIK they are basically the same thing except have the electronics removed for a bigger warhead.

One thing most LRMHatorz do not realize is that faster LRM speed works in their favor to wreck the long range and guidance issue. While I do agree that 500fps (same as a NARC, BTW) is too fast, 200-250 is not (SRM speed) Why does it help the hatorz? Simple, lost locks. You lose lock, and reaquire it, there is a far better chance lock will not be reaquired in time and the shots will miss. Mind you, the LOS game gets a LOT better as well as the short game. Some poor schlub running across open ground on Tourmaline at 80kph? Toast if a LRMboat sinks it's teeth into them, just like they can be from a PPC/AC boat can shred them. This lobbing missiles at 800+ meters with the RaDerp module will be wasting missiles like crazy.

Doing this though would significantly alter the Pavlov based Meta of "skill" PGI claims they want where 'twitch = damage'. You would wreck overnight the whole E-Sport community because LRMs would be competatively viable unlike now where pinpoint, front loaded damage is king and will remain that for the remainder of the game at this rate.

Ultimately, this is the issue: money. LRMs hurt the E-Sport "skill" crowd because it negates their advantage, and IGP wants to make money off their backs. Apparently they see this as a bigger cash cow than the casual 'low skill' players.

Wanderer, you're right about comp teams not caring about the cost.... in tournaments, but when they are trying to grind cash in casual play (if they even do that anymore) they won't be doing the AASpam, and that's the point. Save it for the big game, not for the playground. It's like watching a bunch of jerks taking the church softball beer league because they MUST win at all costs and get overly aggressive base running and running down the catcher at home plate hoping he'll drop the ball. That's the essence of AASpam in casual games. Of course, if you REALLY want to screw it up and leave it the same, randomize the period of time that AA can fire from 2-10 seconds so it's not a precision instrument. Hey, something might be going on back there at they or they're gonna be near instant. This uncertainty can also have a tactical advantage.

Edited by Kjudoon, 18 July 2014 - 06:50 AM.

[Mavairo]

The real tragedy about PGI's desire to turn MWO into an Esport is, they are going about it the exact opposite way that they are supposed to.

The best Esport games have a myriad of strategic and tactical depth to them. That's why they become Esports, and why DOTA, and Starcraft are Kings of the Esport.

Making a shallow, twitch shooter meta, completely sucks the Depth out of the game, and when a game is shallow as this one, it's hard for people to have any desire to Spectate at the Comp Team level. The gameplay is just not that entertaining.

Now if Lasers, SRMs, MGs, LRMs were all on par with the GR, PPC and AC? And if Light and Medium mechs actually had a point of existing? People would watch that in a heart beat, because combat would not consist of Jump Sniping and jump arc sniping, but a full combined arms approach.

No one is going to watch MWO like they watch Starcraft games (starcraft is so successful it has THREE television channels for crying out loud). Because all this game is, is pop tart death match.

This game is in DIRE need of objective based play that is spread out over the distance of the maps, so medium and light mechs have a point, and fully viable weapons at the comp level, which would create mixed engagement scenarios between brawlers (easily watchable and HIGHLY entertaining), snipers, fire support (LRMs) and Raiders.

[Lil Cthulhu]

ShinVector, on 09 June 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

A lot of skilled LRM users should try using lasers only builds to compare 'skill level required'.

Whats funny about that statement is it's quite a bit easier for me to lay down a metric sh*tload of damage with 4 CERLL and 2 CERML, but LRMS are still fun.

[Mavairo]

ShinVector, on 09 June 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

A lot of skilled LRM users should try using lasers only builds to compare 'skill level required'.

No one above the Scrub Tiers uses LRMs in serious numbers.

Why? Because it's EASIER to kill with Lasers, SRMs, PPCs, ACs and GRs, for less tonnage invested, and time to kill a given target.

[SmurfOff]

This is why this game will die. The unfathomable possibility of weapons system doing damage to mech's requires nerfing. It is simple math, LRMs punish players in compromised situations. The reason the higher tiers don't use LRMs is that the pilots know how to move and keep out of a compromised situation. But in PUG drops, it is so easy to find isolated Leroy Jenkins and rain pure death down upon them.

Basically, LRMs are countered primarily by situational awareness. Knowing where you are, in relation to your team/enemy will do more than any ECM/AMS module could.

Of course, I probably fire 80-90% of my LRMs as direct fire, so maybe my view is skewed.

[Charons Little Helper]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

No one above the Scrub Tiers uses LRMs in serious numbers.

Sometimes we do. I also sometimes use my AC20 hunchie. That doesn't mean that I think it's top tier.

[ShinVector]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

No one above the Scrub Tiers uses LRMs in serious numbers.

Why? Because it's EASIER to kill with Lasers, SRMs, PPCs, ACs and GRs, for less tonnage invested, and time to kill a given target.

Because in order to seriously own people with them.. You actually need something called a Spotter !
A simple piece of knowledge that existed since CB. It is actually now less risky for spotters with NARC that additional disables ECM....

Think you are failing to recognise what is the difference between a weapon that required LOS and one that has an indirect fire capability... Might not want to consider this discussion, if you don't understand what I mean.

Lil Cthulhu, on 18 July 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Whats funny about that statement is it's quite a bit easier for me to lay down a metric sh*tload of damage with 4 CERLL and 2 CERML, but LRMS are still fun.

Lastly... Not talking about P2W clan tech too... Try Inner Sphere medium lasers... The ones you have to use around 270M.

Edited by ShinVector, 18 July 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[TamCoan]

Talking about LRM counter measures has enticed me to buy the radar derp module. I tried it out for the first time on Tuesday. That module is such a hard counter to LRMs that it almost feels like cheating. Before I've had to move through cover and try to get a good angle to ensure that the incoming LRM will hit cover. With radar derp I can move behind a hill and turn to watch the LRMs hit the ground where I was a second ago. It's actually pretty amusing.

[Mavairo]

ShinVector, on 18 July 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

Because in order to seriously own people with them.. You actually need something called a Spotter !
A simple piece of knowledge that existed since CB. It is actually now less risky for spotters with NARC that additional disables ECM....

Think you are failing to recognise what is the difference between a weapon that required LOS and one that has an indirect fire capability... Might not want to consider this discussion, if you don't understand what I mean.



Lastly... Not talking about P2W clan tech too... Try Inner Sphere medium lasers... The ones you have to use around 270M.

I think you fail to realize that even over a full 12 man, a spotter is nearly wasted tonnage. LRMs are pug weapons, At best. And require a spotter to even function above the Suck Levels.

If you think LRMs are the strongest weapon in the game and think you're a high skilled player I have bad news for you. You aren't.

Maybe you shouldn't enter discussions about things you can't even hope to understand like time to kill required, action economy, battlefield strategy, and knowing how to properly advance and destroy the enemy.

By the way, I don't own even One clan Mech. And one of my most successful mechs depends on those 'meager ML' (which by the way are considered the best secondary weapon system in the game bar none). I don't own a single LRM mech either, beyond an LRM 30 SRM 24 A1 that I only bring out on a lark, because of Radar Derp, ECM, the intelligence of my opponents, and heavy cover that is rife on several maps. If you can't fight against LRMs it's because you suck. It's as simple as that. Same for fighting against clan mechs too for that matter.

Edited by Mavairo, 18 July 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Lil Cthulhu, on 18 July 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Whats funny about that statement is it's quite a bit easier for me to lay down a metric sh*tload of damage with 4 CERLL and 2 CERML, but LRMS are still fun.

You can churn out the damage that way, I do agree... but not when you have a ping over 200 or (like me) an FPS under 15. then It's LRMs or bust, baby.

This would make for an interesting experiment for some of the LRMHatorz out there. Crank up your settings till your computer chokes down to 5-15fps, and see what it's like to play at that level of processing. Try it with your favorite builds, then with LRMs. I wonder what your results would be like?

Edited by Kjudoon, 18 July 2014 - 06:54 AM.