684 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Amusingly enough, my Founder's Catapult frequently uses no LRMs whatsoever- 2 ERLL + 2 ML.

On many maps, it deals damage easier than putting LRMs downstream instead.

[Mavairo]

wanderer, on 18 July 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Amusingly enough, my Founder's Catapult frequently uses no LRMs whatsoever- 2 ERLL + 2 ML.

On many maps, it deals damage easier than putting LRMs downstream instead.

I don't even field my founders cat anymore because LRMs are so terrible.

[Wolfways]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I don't even field my founders cat anymore because LRMs are so terrible.

I only play my CPLT-C1 because I'm stubborn. When the Mad Dog prime is released i will play that for the same reason

[MeiSooHaityu]

wanderer, on 18 July 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Amusingly enough, my Founder's Catapult frequently uses no LRMs whatsoever- 2 ERLL + 2 ML.

On many maps, it deals damage easier than putting LRMs downstream instead.

I haven't given up on the LRMs yet on my Cat C1.

I'm running something similar (2 LLasers, 2MLasers), but running 2 LRM10s as well (and JJs).

If it is a map I can get close to the action (but still on our side of the map with cover), I will pop a UAV, back up, and start hurtling LRMs. I will fire the lasers when I have to, but heat efficency is only about 1.21 if I remember right. I'm sure running without the missiles makes for a lot more cooling efficency, but I could do that build with other mechs, so I try and use the Cat C1's missile pods.

It's a descent build. It does ok, but nothing to write home about.

[wanderer]

Don't get me wrong. I run LRM boats. Lots of them. The Catapult just has those massive, often tumor-ridden ears that beg to be shot off.

So I don't put anything in them and use them as shields instead whilst pewpewpewing with lasers.

[MeiSooHaityu]

wanderer, on 18 July 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong. I run LRM boats. Lots of them. The Catapult just has those massive, often tumor-ridden ears that beg to be shot off.

So I don't put anything in them and use them as shields instead whilst pewpewpewing with lasers.

Yea, one of the reasons I don't mount SRMs in Catapults anymore. If you close within about 200m to use them, you are losing those ears fairly quick.

As an LRM launcher, you play a bit more cautious and fire volleys from behind cover that protects you and the ears. You just need a descent spotter (something hard to find in a PUG drop), or have a UAV.

I ran the K2 like that for a while (2 ERLLasers (one in each arm) and 2MLasers. It was ok, but nothing quite beats the 2 A/C10 and 4MLaser loadout. I always go back to that.

[ShinVector]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

I think you fail to realize that even over a full 12 man, a spotter is nearly wasted tonnage. LRMs are pug weapons, At best. And require a spotter to even function above the Suck Levels.
....

There is something wrong with your comprehension dude...
Where in the world did I say "LRM are the Strongest Weapons".. You said this.. You secret wish or something ?

Sounds like your one of those SOLO LRM boaters that has never seen LRM boats used properly in a coordinated 4 Man pre-made team.

LRM boats used properly are devastating due to the indirect fire capability...
Just because you never had a dedicated Light Spotter to coordinate and spot LRMs for doesn't mean the tactics doesn't exist.

Here is another wrong assumption... Which I have proven to other LRM defender + Videos... I kill LRM boats in Light mechs simply because they single-handed stopped brawling at one point of time during the 175M/s era..
Why would you simply assume, I have trouble killing mechs ?
I have killed over 15 thousand mechs to date... I know how to kill mechs and often play with and against some of the best people in this game..

What I trying to state right now.. LRMs in the hands of the right team.. Are devastating..
Go head and deny there are people that can use LRMs better than you do.

Lastly the Clan mech comments was mech for the Guy.. I quoted.. Not you.. DOH !!

Edited by ShinVector, 18 July 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[Mavairo]

ShinVector, on 18 July 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

There is something wrong with your comprehension dude...
Where in the world did I say "LRM are the Strongest Weapons".. You said this.. You secret wish or something ?

Sounds like your one of those SOLO LRM boaters that has never seen LRM boats used properly in a coordinated 4 Man pre-made team.

LRM boats used properly are devastating due to the indirect fire capability...
Just because you never had a dedicated Light Spotter to coordinate and spot LRMs for doesn't mean the tactics doesn't exist.

Here is another wrong assumption... Which I have proven to other LRM defender + Videos... I kill LRM boats in Light mechs simply because they single-handed stopped brawling at one point of time during the 175M/s era..
Why would simply assume, I have trouble killing mechs ?
I have killed over 15 thousand mechs to date... I know how to kill mechs and often play with and against some of the best people in this game..

Lastly the Clan mech comments was mech for the Guy.. I quoted.. Not you.. DOH !!

Decimating power? LOL
Maybe if you're shooting at fish in a barrel they are. It doesn't matter if you bring a spotter or not. LRMs are some of the LAST things I fear on the battlefield. Be it while I'm in an Atlas (non DDC at that), or one of my heavy mechs.

Devastating power. Oh god that's so rich, my sides hurt.
LRMs are a Joke.
You can take 4 boats, 6 boats, or even 10 boats loaded with LRMs, above the middling and lower tiers they aren't going to perform well compared to this games Real Weaponry of ACs PPCs, GRs, or hell even Lasers and SRMs.

If you think LRMs are devastatingly powerful against anything but people who are so laughably bad that they should question the validity of their decisions or if they should even keep this game installed, you've clearly not learned much in your 15000 kills.

The only possible way LRMs could be even more of a joke is if they went down to 125 m/s again. Which, there was plenty of QQN about LRMs from supposedly top flight players then too.

Know what I see when I see 4 LRM boats on a team?
A full 1/3 of the enemy team that amounts to Free Kills.

Edited by Mavairo, 18 July 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

That they are not OP is one thing Mav, but a coordinated team with a couple spotters and say 4-6 boats can and have killed Mechs in 6 seconds. When done right, A good fire support lance is formidable.

[Fut]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

That they are not OP is one thing Mav, but a coordinated team with a couple spotters and say 4-6 boats can and have killed Mechs in 6 seconds. When done right, A good fire support lance is formidable.

Which is exactly how LRMs should behave, isn't it?

A single Mech, loaded with a single LRM rack, is not going to be very devastating on the battlefield. That single LRM rack will provide benefits to the user, and to the team - if used correctly.

A few Mechs all toting LRMs, should be able to melt targets fairly quickly, especially if they have a dedicated spotter.

LRMs are in a fairly decent place at the moment. If people are having difficulties with them, they need to examine something other than the weapon system.

[Mavairo]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

That they are not OP is one thing Mav, but a coordinated team with a couple spotters and say 4-6 boats can and have killed Mechs in 6 seconds. When done right, A good fire support lance is formidable.

A lance of 4 boom jagers (or rather 3 Boom jagers and say an Atlas DDC with 2 PPCs and a 20) in their Ideal Conditions will wipe any given mech off the board in just their opening salvos readily. That's Fresh Armor of everything but maybe an enemy front loaded atlas or DW to 0 in one volley that will take a whooolllle lot less than six seconds to get to target destruction.
Doesn't mean that it's Repeatable, and actually worthy of being fielded.
Not compared to, the effectiveness of GR PPC, PPC AC fire at least, or even mid range mixed loadouts.

The Effort that goes into making that 4 man lance formidable can be used to far more devastating effect with pinpoint FLD damage, with far greater circumstances that it can be used in.

Six seconds with 4 guys whaling into a single target, isn't impressive, compared to the firepower available for comparable tonnage.

Edited by Mavairo, 18 July 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[ShinVector]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Decimating power? LOL
Maybe if you're shooting at fish in a barrel they are. It doesn't matter if you bring a spotter or not. LRMs are some of the LAST things I fear on the battlefield. Be it while I'm in an Atlas (non DDC at that), or one of my heavy mechs.

Devastating power. Oh god that's so rich, my sides hurt.
LRMs are a Joke.

Just shows the amount of experience you had this game... I got nothing more to say...
You have simply never seen a higher ELO team use LRM properly. Too bad for you.

But this bring a good thought.. due to my dislike of the weapon... I tend to not fully support a LRM team..
Need to do some training again in this area.... Maybe do some video caps...

Edited by ShinVector, 18 July 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Mavairo]

ShinVector, on 18 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Just shows the amount of experience you had this game... I got nothing more to say...
You have simply never seen a higher ELO team use LRM properly. Too bad for you.

But this bring a good thought.. due to my dislike of the weapon... I tend to not fully support a LRM team..
Need to do some training again in this area.... Maybe do some video caps...

If you think 6 seconds to kill a mech is impressive, with four guys whaling on it is impressive there's nothing more to say to you either.
Because evidently you've never seen mechs fire high powered pin point strikes onto a given target before, that are well coordinated.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

A lance of 4 boom jagers (or rather 3 Boom jagers and say an Atlas DDC with 2 PPCs and a 20) in their Ideal Conditions will wipe any given mech off the board in just their opening salvos readily. That's Fresh Armor of everything but maybe an enemy front loaded atlas or DW to 0 in one volley that will take a whooolllle lot less than six seconds to get to target destruction.
Doesn't mean that it's Repeatable, and actually worthy of being fielded.
Not compared to, the effectiveness of GR PPC, PPC AC fire at least, or even mid range mixed loadouts.

The Effort that goes into making that 4 man lance formidable can be used to far more devastating effect with pinpoint FLD damage, with far greater circumstances that it can be used in.

Six seconds with 4 guys whaling into a single target, isn't impressive, compared to the firepower available for comparable tonnage.

Maybe. If the Boom Jagers can get into range. All a Fire Support Lance needs is a scout with rocky mountain oysters, and 250-400+ missiles launchable. I used to crush Boom Cats in droves as an Archer. StreakCats as well. Just have to apply good team work.

As to not being impressive... Massing fire on a single enemy is or group of enemies is SOP for infantry, so if you are not impressed, well will have to agree to disagree, cause we like to use overlapping fields of fire and calling primary targets to improve chance of victory. But you are welcome to your opinion, as I am welcome to disagree with it.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 July 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Mavairo]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Maybe. If the Boom Jagers can get into range. All a Fire Support Lance needs is a scout with rocky mountain oysters, and 250-400+ missiles launchable.

As to not being impressive... Massing fire on a single enemy is or group of enemies is SOP for infantry, so if you are not impressed, well will have to agree to disagree, cause we like to use overlapping fields of fire and calling primary targets to improve chance of victory. But you are welcome to your opinion, as I am welcome to disagree with it.

IF they can rely on their spotter not being killed immediately. If we get to assume the Boom Team can get shot up on the way in, we get to assume the Fire Support lance, gets to also be facing people with SA higher than that of bread mold.
IF the Enemy Scouts do not Make your Spotter on his way in for what he is and advise the team that LRM Rain is likely. (thus changing the route they pick, say going tunnel in FC instead of playing in the canyons, or going into the basement in manifold etc)
IF the LRMs don't simply careen into heavy cover
IF the Enemy team, doesn't carry AMS
IF the Enemy team isn't carrying ECM
IF The Enemy team isn't carrying Radar Derp
IF the Enemy Team isn't utilizing cover in their advance (and they will advance once they see the rockets hit the field unless they're completely hopeless)
IF the Enemy team completely fails to use their Mediums and lights for LRM boat hunting, while the heavies and assaults continue their slower advance.
Then yes, LRMs are repeatably Amazing.


No other weapon system in this game has THAT many qualifiers in order to function correctly.
Combined fire is amazing, the problem is. LRM combined fire, isn't nearly as good as other combined fire elements in this game.

Overwhelming focus fire is SOP in gaming and the military alike. And when you're being impartial about it, you have to examine not just that weapon system, but in context against other combinations.

THAT is my problem with LRMs, they come up short compared to better weapons, and not by a little margin. Just look at all of those qualifiers.
Honestly the Boom Team has more of their destiny in their hands than the LRM Team does.

Feast or Famine is not Reliable, which is why LRMs are so spartan above a certain point.
That's also why you don't see Boom Teams scouring the ques dry, either. It's not Reliable or Repeatable. Despite the devastating sheer potential of having 160+ front loaded damage pin pointed on any given piece of armor.

What would you rather have, a weapon that can not function correctly or fully, anywhere from 50 to 60 percent of the time but utterly decimates whatever is on the receiving end WHEN it works, or would you rather have something that Gets The Job Done, say, 70 to 80 percent of the time? It's the difference in Crit vs Acc in MMO builds.
(when Acc matters as a stat, that's another tangent and thread entirely)
Crit builds look at nothing but that big payoff # and go "see? It's beautiful it works devastatingly well!"
The problem of course with crit builds is they rely soley on your target having a low defense value, and assume you will hit your target full time enough to compensate for the misses. Excellent teams and groups will try their best to lower their targets defense values to maximise the crit chances, compensating for the lack of base accuracy. The problem steps in of course, is that nothing exists in a vacuum.

If that doesn't happen, which is MOST circumstances, then Accuracy will matter far far more than Crit chance.
It's kind of why the UAC20 isn't as good as the AC20.
One of them rolls a whole crap ton of times, hoping to get some damage on the target, the other delivers full damage in one big pimp slap. Initially on paper the UAC20 and 20... the 20 looks to be lacking because after all it can't double tap... but unlike the big 20, the UAC20 is heinously susceptible to torso twists

Edited by Mavairo, 18 July 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

We can count on our scouts for the most part... Some do a dam good dishing damage while keeping lock for us.
Good scout lets you know you are having solid effect
AMS reduces damage not negate
ECM is a bugbear, but overcome by TAG/NARC
Radar decay didn't exist at the time... does it decay while being spotted or after lock is broke?
If the enemy IS using cover, thats good, it means they are not firing on my allies.

With few exceptions Mav any counter can be countered... I have been doing this stuff for over 30 years, and having this same conversation for about 25 of them. It is a vicious cycle.

To have missiles be equal at the top... Would likely make them Nukes down where I am am at near the middle of the pack. So either you are using LRMs wrong, or you at a level that you know how to avoid the worst of them. This is one weapon that cannot be fixed from the top down I would argue.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 July 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Mavairo]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

We can count on our scouts for the most part... Some do a dam good dishing damage while keeping lock for us.
Good scout lets you know you are having solid effect
AMS reduces damage not negate
ECM is a bugbear, but overcome by TAG/NARC
Radar decay didn't exist at the time... does it decay while being spotted or after lock is broke?
If the enemy IS using cover, thats good, it means they are not firing on my allies.

With few exceptions Mav any counter can be countered... I have been doing this stuff for over 30 years, and having this same conversation for about 25 of them. It is a vicious cycle.

A scout can be mitigated by other Enemy Lights,
the LRM boats themselves are able to come under threat by Mediums.
Hell man I carry a Narc on one of my TDRs just on the off chance that we get some friendly boats. (it's the 2 LL 5ML TDR) It's a Brawler, but I know full well that if there are LRMs being fielded that day, that we're eventually going to need more narc.

AMS will reduce damage substantially, terrain will also reduce damage, moving horizontally reduces it more so, and then you can torso twist.

The scout spotters will have to either bug out, or be destroyed, against a team that's observant and are probably being hunted by enemy lights. 4X3 honestly Hurt LRM Boats probably more than almost anything else in the game has, because you KNOW that you'll have to take some lights if you're in the public ques at least.

They can use cover, and still Advance in most of the maps in this game barring one major exception mapwise.

If you had your choice between say GR PPC timbers, or LRM Kitties, which would you rather take? 3 guys that can put 35 damage onto a single point of armor Each, or a bunch of guys that spread damage all around enemy mechs? (especially now that Splash has been removed)

Maybe because I don't play Static Gunline or Pop Tart is why I don't see LRMs as much of a threat compared to other weapons. Because for them to reliably work on me, means I have to play counter to how I and CI in general plays.

When you look at tournament winners, the results are pretty clear, LRM Carrying Teams aren't the ones bringing home the trophies. There's too many circumstances in which they're not useful. I doubt it's because the guys at the top "felt sorry" for the rest of us
More because there's not a whole lot you can do about taking 30 to one piece of armor. You can control to some extent what armor you're taking it on, but you know at some point you're taking it.

Edited by Mavairo, 18 July 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[Kjudoon]

now if only using ECM was a skill based action like using TAG or NARC... then I'd consider this equivalent. I've shot down UAVs before so I know they're counterable very easy if you see them and have a laser.

[ShinVector]

Mavairo, on 18 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Because evidently you've never seen mechs fire high powered pin point strikes onto a given target before, that are well coordinated.

On the contrary I have seen too much of META... The new SOLO pug queue a breath of fresh air to me.

I still see you are denied the fact there are light mech pilots our there that are good at spotting.. So you know, it got a whole easier with heavily buffed NARC...

• 30 secs... +10 with the module.
  
• You cannot deactivated in anyway sort of ECM. No shut down does not work.
  
• You become visible to the whole enemy team regardless where you are.
  
• Disables ECM.
  
• Doubled Ammo per ton.
  
• doubled ? range.
  
• Speed was increase + increase more with the NARC module...

Note there is a reason why I take note of all these things.

Edited by ShinVector, 18 July 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Mavairo]

ShinVector, on 18 July 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

On the contrary I have seen too much of META... The new SOLO pug queue a breath of fresh air to me.

I still see you are denied the fact there are light mech pilots our there that are good at spotting.. So you know, it got a whole easier with heavily buffed NARC...

• 30 secs... +10 with the module.
  
• You cannot deactivated in anyway sort of ECM. No shut down does not work.
  
• You become visible to the whole enemy team regardless where you are.
  
• Disables ECM.
  
• Doubled Ammo per ton.
  
• doubled ? range.
  
• Speed was increase + increase more with the NARC module...

Note there is a reason why I take note of all these things.

Those lights can be knocked out straight away by enemy lights and light hunters.
Despite all of those buffs to Narc, you still see Too Much Meta.
Did you ever think of why that is?
It could be that instead of LRMs being a Viable Weapon System compared to the current Meta, that they aren't.

Let me ask you. Do you think LRMs are UnderPowered compared to PPCs+GR, PPC+AC, hell SRM+Lasers? SRM+AC?
What would you rather see? the meta go unchanged for another year?
Or would you rather see a field, where there are mixed loadouts and Balanced Team Compositions? (ie people carrying LRMs, SRMs, Lasers, AS WELL AS, GR+PPC, AC+PPC)

LRMs need to come to a point where the meta is threatened.
I think we both know they aren't, not yet at least.

LRMS are not as reliable as the following in my experience 1: the meta mechs and builds, Obviously. 2: Laserboats, 3: SRM and Laser mixes, 4: SRM and AC loadouts. 5: Lasers and ACs.
I have no horse in the LRMs are UP or OP issue beyond the fact that of all the mechs I see on the field, ones carrying lots of LRMs Scare me the Least. I shouldn't see an LRM boat or even several and go "okay whatever, knock them out as primary because they'll be the easiest to take apart" I should be going "That's some serious firesupport. We need to knock that out ASAP"

Edited by Mavairo, 18 July 2014 - 12:24 PM.