34 replies to this topic

[Tim East]

While a lot of things said here are relevant, I have to say that there are more ways to fail to LRM than just this.

http://mwomercs.com/...-missile-boats/

So. On to the topic at hand. Today I witnessed a Dragon mounting a single LRM 10 and nothing else offensive. This managed to aggravate me just a touch, since I can't help but feel that devoting a couple of tons to auxiliary weapons greatly benefits proper LRM boats (which this is most assuredly NOT) and devoting only a few tons to LRMs is more than adequate if you're planning to use them as auxiliary weapons.

From what I've been able to see, there are two schools of thought regarding LRMs. You can either boat them to try and overwhelm AMS point-defence, or use them to provide an interim damage output option on the way to a proper fight as a brawler. Both of these make sense to me, and I've read a lot of good arguments regarding the theory and practice for these. With that said, I don't have a ton of recent experience with LRMs. So, if I say something silly that doesn't make sense, feel free to call me on it.

Regarding the first of these circumstances, the LRM "boat," I am of the opinion that having some kind of close range backup option is enormously beneficial. Sure, small lasers don't do a ton of damage, and no, you aren't likely to be able to solo-brawl an uninjured light that comes to carve you up. However, in the course of battle, it is not uncommon for light mechs to take damage and arrive wherever they are going somewhat weakened. In such a state, even the light, heat-efficient, unassuming, small laser can deter the more cautious foe with minimal effect on your ability to mount and fire your primary weapons. Streaks are arguably better, but that depends on your hardpoints, and I have a bone to pick over them regarding hit reg in a different thread. My main point is, it's kind of risky to leave yourself defenseless at close range.

The other use for LRMs I know of, that is brawling supplements, are intended to augment your damage rating while engineering the circumstances necessary to engage your target with your primary armaments, whether they be lasers, AC20's, or whatever your favorite toy happens to be. Assaults tend toward the slow. It happens. Sending a few missiles down range while you slog inexorably forward is a good way to make your job easier later, since there's a fair chance you'll strip at least some armor off of your enemies, provided your team maintains lock. So, I suppose what I'm saying is, I'm not against non-boat LRM use. It has a place.

Call me crazy, but a single LRM10 with no other armaments does neither of these things. You aren't slinging enough missiles down range to count as a boat, and if you didn't equip anything else, you're certainly not a brawler. Carrying nearly 900 rounds of ammunition that you won't get to use because everybody gets killed is not a good use of tonnage. As a heavy mech, you generally fall into the category of "striker." This means that you are intended to dish out damage, fast and heavy. While notable exceptions exist, and some heavies are more skirmishers or support, this really doesn't qualify as a successful one.

[CaptainDeez]

TL;dr version:
Don't put a single lrm10 on a dragon.

[The Great Unwashed]

That is great advice; when building a mech try to outgun a stock Locust-1M...

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 11 June 2014 - 04:28 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Something sounds really off about this Dragon.
I have done twin LRM10, 4-5 tons ammo, triple ML, TAG and an extra thing or two in 50-55 tonners.
To have only 1 LRM10, either it packed a lot of non weapon stuff or someone dropped under weight.

[Kmieciu]

It does not matter what you put on a Dragon...

[Varik Ronain]

I would say that if you are pugging it up in the solo drop then it would be unwise to not carry any backup weapons as you cannot count on anyone really being there for you at a moments notice like a lancemate on teamspeak could be.

But if you are on teamspeak and dropping with 3 buddies then I say it can be done with great results. You just have to make sure to stick with the herd and support them and be able to break ECM on your own if need be.

Here is a build I like to run when I am in the mood to be different. http://mwomercs.com/...ell-as-premade/

4-6 kills and 1000 damage is doable with just 2 LRM15 launchers if you do it right, have a decent map and the PGI gods grant you the better pugs.

P.S. Perhaps the dragon pilot ran out of cbills when he was fitting his new toy mech?

[The Flying Gecko]

I've had many 1000+ damage games that I was grateful for the extra ton of LRMs in place of a single laser

[Dawnstealer]

Totally agree. On most of my boats (I think I have three?) the LRMs are just to give me something to do while I waddle into laser-shooting range.

My Atlas (which looks vaguely like this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8eb4fa3884f68f9) is designed to soften up targets before wading in with the 3LL. It can even zombie up, if need be, once all those missiles have fired off. It also works as a suppressor, since the missiles go in waves (thanks to the tube numbers).

But the primary damage is done by those LLs, not the LRMs.

With my Stalker, it's a similar thing (2 LRM15s, 2LRM10s), mounting 4MLs. That's still a 20-point punch. Unlike the Atlas, the LRMs are the primary weapon, but the ML are a non-ammo dependent weapon that, late in the game, can really mess up a softened mech.

My weakest boat, is weirdly the one that gets the most kills. It's a Highlander with 2 LRM15s, 2 LRM10s, 2ML, and single MG. But by the time the enemy is close enough, they've already been mauled by the LRMs and the MLs and MG is usually enough to push them back to 180m (where I can unload on them again).

I guess my design philosophy is ALWAYS have a non-ammo-based weapon(s) as backup. ALWAYS. You WILL run out of ammo at some point, and if you don't have anything that can still damage the enemy, you're basically just a walking shield for your teammates.

[Tim East]

Shoot man, even a TAG as backup would be nice. AMS helps no one but you if you go solo.

Varik Ronain, on 11 June 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

4-6 kills and 1000 damage is doable with just 2 LRM15 launchers if you do it right, have a decent map and the PGI gods grant you the better pugs.

P.S. Perhaps the dragon pilot ran out of cbills when he was fitting his new toy mech?

2 LRM 15's is arguably triple the firepower of an LRM 10 depending on tubes, and frankly good enough to count as true boating imho. I'd still want a backup weapon though. I don't really do the premade thing all that often, and when I do it's with players newer than myself. Self-reliance is a good trait to have in PUGs, provided that you don't let it develop into arrogance that prevents you from working with your fellows.

[Conn Man]

Maybe the mechlab freaked out and didn't save the load properly, and the player didn't notice until after launch.

[Rattler85]

LRMs need to be backed up by other weapons for when things get close. I have taken down several mechs that thought they had me when they got close to my C1 Catapult.

I also have a habit of staying close to friendlies when I am in my C1. Lights focus on me and my friends kill them.

I have seen Stalkers mounting all LRMs and you just have to get and stay in their face.

[WVAnonymous]

My STK-5M is 2 LRM5+A, 3 LRM10+A, 4 ML, 1 TAG with 6 tons of LRMs.

The 4 ML make a huge difference, and on cold maps if I can keep you between 180 and 330 meters you are just a short-lived cash register.

[Navy Sixes]

Merchant, on 11 June 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

Something sounds really off about this Dragon.

Read the OP and it immediately made me think of the 2xLRM15 -and nothing else- Awesome I spectated in a forest colony PUG this week. Wish I could remember the player's name.

Very similar circumstances. Hmmm...

[IraqiWalker]

When building LRM boats back up weapons are mandatory, otherwise you will really have to rely on escorts, which deprives the front line of much needed tonnage, and firepower. That's why even on the CPLT-A1 I like seeing SSRMs, or even regular SRMs. Just SOMETHING to make sure that you're not instagibbed under 180 meters.

My best LRM boat (and my only atm) is my BLR-1S That's the gist of my build. 4MLs give me a very nasty bite in close range, in fact I got rushed by a highlander on HPG, and I managed to land enough 4ML alphas into it's side torso that I popped it's XL, and lived to continue fighting, and supporting my team.

[Koniks]

If you're only bringing one LRM rack and nothing else then you're doing it wrong.

But as long as you're bringing at least 25 LRM tubes, then you don't need backup weapons so long as your top speed is at least 80kph. That's not "requiring escorts," that's close fire support.

Edited by Mizeur, 13 June 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[wanderer]

An LRM boat without something to use for point defense is target practice waiting to happen. There's nothing more amusing than sneaking in on one of those in my OWN LRM boat and beating it to death. Slowly. With a few lasers and possibly a few MG's for good measure.

I am not kind to those people, especially when I point out I started with internal damage and they had full armor...and by the time it's over, I don't have a point of damage and they're dead. Even an -A1 can trade one of it's LRM launchers for SRMs and have SOMETHING to fire up close.

Mizeur, on 13 June 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

If you're only bringing one LRM rack and nothing else then you're doing it wrong.

But as long as you're bringing at least 25 LRM tubes, then you don't need backup weapons so long as your top speed is at least 80kph. That's not "requiring escorts," that's close fire support.

Absolutely untrue. You're scout bait, and I watch boats like this burn regularly the second even a Locust realizes they have unlimited access to laser-reaming your colon without fear of retribution.

Drop a ton of ammo or a launcher down 5 tubes and mount a few ML's, people. The shame you save will be your own.

Edited by wanderer, 13 June 2014 - 05:39 PM.

[Koniks]

wanderer, on 13 June 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Absolutely untrue. You're scout bait, and I watch boats like this burn regularly the second even a Locust realizes they have unlimited access to laser-reaming your colon without fear of retribution.

Drop a ton of ammo or a launcher down 5 tubes and mount a few ML's, people. The shame you save will be your own.

I couldn't disagree more. Both with your absolutism and your hyperbolic example.

Most LRM boats are slow. Most LRM boats end up on their own. If you're piloting a slow LRM boat, yes you need point defense.

If your LRM boat goes at least 80kph, then you shouldn't be in a position to get singled out unless everyone else has already died. It's the difference between using LRMs to skirmish and using LRMs as long-range fire support.

Edited by Mizeur, 13 June 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[wanderer]

Mizeur, on 13 June 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I couldn't disagree more. Both with your absolutism and your hyperbolic example.

Most LRM boats are slow. Most LRM boats end up on their own. If you're piloting a slow LRM boat, yes you need point defense.

If your LRM boat goes at least 80kph, then you shouldn't be in a position to get singled out unless everyone else has already died. It's the difference between using LRMs to skirmish and using LRMs as long-range fire support.

I can't tell you how many Griffins and Trebuchets who thought that when I caught them. Heck, I've ended up flaming out those on my Orion- at it's whopping 70ish kph. You back up, I'm faster. You turn to run, I'm fast enough to put a few shots in your back and it was nice knowing your torso. Yeah, you can outrun an assault. A smart medium or light will use you as a shield while blowing bits off without fear, because you are zero threat inside 180m.

Easy meat. A Jenner or Ember does not give a flying fig about you being faster, it'll go for your back/legs without worries if you can't shoot back and those ML/MG mounts will leave you crippled or dead in two-three salvos if they don't have to juke around to spread fire. Never mind a Clanner- even their slowbie lights can keep up most LRM skirmishers and the train has no brakes.

Seriously. Drop five frickin tubes and add a few medium lasers, stop expecting your team to be 100% of your point defense.

[Navy Sixes]

Tim East, on 10 June 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

From what I've been able to see, there are two schools of thought regarding LRMs...

Three, actually. The "LRMisher" is a heavy or medium mech (many options, but I favor a Griffon or a Catapult myself) with a dedicated LRM-loadout (That's 30+ LRMs per salvo. Not 20, not 25, and sure as hell not 10!) who is fast enough to move up front (+80kph) and engage the enemy early, and more importantly, fast enough to disengage if the enemy is superior. A LRMisher carries enough firepower aside from their LRMs to wreak respectable havok, and has enough guts to do it in close where that heavy-class armor will make the difference, and the LOS for thier Artemis to work is guaranteed. LRMishers don't waste energy slots on TAG. They run a BAP and an Advanced Sensor Range module and keep their targets at about 250m, where they can eat through their ECM and sh*t LRMs, Mlasers, and S/SRMs all over them at once.

You'll know a LRMisher when you see one. It's that free lunch you thought you were gonna get in your SDR, only to find yourself running from for dear life after it stripped your legs to red. It's the LRM-platform on your team that is advancing in the Vanguard with the rest of the mediums ('cause the assaults are all pop-wussing in the rear!) and will finish the match with at least one critical component, most of their armor scoured/scorched away, +500 damage, double-digit assists, and at least one kill.

But the dead giveaway that you have come across a true LRMisher is the way you feel. After any encounter with a LRMisher, you will find yourself asking, "Damn, why don't more people play LRMs like that?"

[Koniks]

wanderer, on 13 June 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

I can't tell you how many Griffins and Trebuchets who thought that when I caught them. Heck, I've ended up flaming out those on my Orion- at it's whopping 70ish kph. You back up, I'm faster. You turn to run, I'm fast enough to put a few shots in your back and it was nice knowing your torso. Yeah, you can outrun an assault. A smart medium or light will use you as a shield while blowing bits off without fear, because you are zero threat inside 180m.

Easy meat. A Jenner or Ember does not give a flying fig about you being faster, it'll go for your back/legs without worries if you can't shoot back and those ML/MG mounts will leave you crippled or dead in two-three salvos if they don't have to juke around to spread fire. Never mind a Clanner- even their slowbie lights can keep up most LRM skirmishers and the train has no brakes.

Seriously. Drop five frickin tubes and add a few medium lasers, stop expecting your team to be 100% of your point defense.

Do you want congratulations for killing pilots who probably would've died just as quickly with any other loadout? The speed isn't to outrun your light. It's to be in position where it's too dangerous for you to engage with enough time to get the kill.

LRM skirmishing isn't a novice tactic or skillset.

Yes, the BLR-1S with 30 tubes, 3xML, TAG, and BAP is the Platonic ideal of missile boats. 30 tube mediums are also a viable option. Saying they're not is just false.