78 replies to this topic

[Pygar]

Rofl, on 13 June 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

The funny thing about F2P models, and how people say to vote with your wallets, is people are doing exactly that. They are voting.

What's really funny about this, is originally (back in the 90's or whatever) I hated the Clans. Right now, I'm excited as heck for them because it looks like they are not going to be the problem they were back then... and at this point 2 years into playing MWO, "new" IS mechs are not cutting it for me, because they are all just starting to blur together with the options (or lack of options) we already have available.

[Pygar]

Zolaz, on 13 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

So you are comparing Clan mechs with Basic skills vs Inner Sphere mechs that are probably Mastered? Clan tech will bring back brawling, able to do more damage and take more damage. Yep, sounds real balanced.

The extra damage on Clan mechs was awesome against shut down or afk/disco targets. Against targets that were moving, torso twisting, and shooting back...not so much. As far as resistance to damage- we'll see if the Omnis get a hitbox adjustment like most other mechs needed when they were first released... otherwise, nope, not really...Omnis die just as fast as everything else under focused fire and good aiming.

And "brawling" never went away really, it's just that most of the pop tarts or other snipers are good enough at brawling that it doesn't really pay to build mechs that can only brawl in the current meta, unless your whole team commits to fitting for brawl and zerg rushes the enemy.

[Dakkath]

I'm not sure I understand the initial complaint. In the lore, the Clans always had the advantage, until the IS caught up. There was quite a while where the clans would steamroll IS mechs....

Once you start to make the clan weapons the same as IS weapons there is no need for the different weapons, Just give everyone the same guns and the same chassis and blammo, you have your vanilla balance, every thing is the same and the only difference at that point is who aims quicker.


I could go on about pinpoint damage, mechlab meta being impossible to balance, convergence, collisions, etc, but that's another topic all in itself...

The clan mechs in MWO will have disadvantages, just like every other mech, but to stay true to Battletech, their weaponry/tech should be different than IS.

[Pale Jackal]

Dakkath, on 13 June 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

I could go on about pinpoint damage, mechlab meta being impossible to balance, convergence, collisions, etc, but that's another topic all in itself...

The clan mechs in MWO will have disadvantages, just like every other mech, but to stay true to Battletech, their weaponry/tech should be different than IS.

Being different from the IS is fine, and I really like what PGI did with a lot of the Clan stuff. It looks like they made some attempt to provide balance and difference between the groups, but I think PGI didn't go far enough. PGI said the Clans would run hotter.

Guess what? The Clan Small Laser, for the same heat, does 60% more damage, and has almost twice the range, and the downside is a 33% longer beam duration. This Clan Small Laser does as much damage as an IS medium laser, with the same beam duration, for half the heat.

I mean, I love it, it's what the Inner Sphere Small Laser should be. A heat efficient brawling weapon. However, it doesn't strike me as balanced.

The Inner Sphere's counter to the Clans should not just be their pinpoint damage, otherwise that means we need to run meta builds to compete and the IS brawlers are obsolete.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 13 June 2014 - 04:02 PM.

[Pygar]

Pale Jackal, on 13 June 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Being different from the IS is fine, and I really like what PGI did with a lot of the Clan stuff. It looks like they made some attempt to provide balance and difference between the groups, but I think PGI didn't go far enough. PGI said the Clans would run hotter.

Guess what? The Clan Small Laser, for the same heat, does 60% more damage, and has almost twice the range, and the downside is a 33% longer beam duration. This Clan Small Laser does as much damage as an IS medium laser, with the same beam duration, for half the heat.

I mean, I love it, it's what the Inner Sphere Small Laser should be. A heat efficient brawling weapon. However, it doesn't strike me as balanced.

The Inner Sphere's counter to the Clans should not just be their pinpoint damage, otherwise that means we need to run meta builds to compete and the IS brawlers are obsolete.

Well, one reason it is still balanced is because lasers are in general kind of bad given the DOT mechanics and the way heat sinks work. (both in regards to the 1.4 DHS ratio, and the way they do cooling over time vs. instant heat from firing weapons.) Clan mechs do run considerably hot despite having slightly better DHS (space-wise)....all the Clan mechs except the Dire Wolf have fairly limited free tonnage for upgrades, so it's hard for them to give up tons for more heat sinks. (Which also, that same limited tonnage coupled with limited slots almost makes it so Clan mechs really need those smaller lasers to be that good....for example, the Nova is impressive with 6 ERML in each arm...but if you trade those ERMLs for PPCs instead, all of the sudden the Nova is somewhat underpowered compared to what other mediums can do.)

Edited by Pygar, 13 June 2014 - 04:15 PM.

[Ashaira]

Pale Jackal, on 13 June 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you do not think the Clans are OP based on yesterday's play, tell me:

Do you really think we've seen the best possible builds that the Clans can use?

Furthermore, if the Inner Sphere is required to use 'mechs with superior pinpoint damage (which is their primary advantage right now), then that simply means that IS 'mechs who do not follow the meta will be strictly inferior to Clan 'mechs.



Yesterday was great, but I don't fancy paying $60 so I can have early access to a Nova. I scoff at idiots who pay $50 for tanks in World of Tanks, and doing the same in MWO is no different.

I have bad news for you. IS mechs with PP FLD are already superior to all other IS mechs. Don't like the meta either but there is a huge difference between my meta mech and all my other mechs in terms of performance.

Take it up with the meta not the clan mechs.

[Creovex]

Zerberus, on 13 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

So, instead of testing for yourself in the 12 hr timeframe allocated, you saw a fdew videos or streams and came to the conclusion that they`re OP. Despite the winning team more often than not being the side with more IS mechs on it.

I have a job, too, 12 hours a day, with a hour of transit each way, and I still mkanaged to test AND sleep AND wake up earl y and work again today. "I have a job" is usually a cop out reason with little actual substance, it usually is used to "justify" laziness or a lack of actual interest.

Either way, you then decided to write up a bigass post about how OP they "are" and implications of how PGI dropped the ball despite you holding their hand every step of the way (because, as armchair quarterbacks, we always know everything better). You then go on to cite a few pseudo-reasons, like the "Snails pace" of cbill release (which is significantly faster than the Phoenix release was, 2 mechs more in 3 weeks less) or the supposed "splitting "of the community into haves and have.nots.. Hyperbole much?.

And then you further devolve into what essentially amounts to "fix it the way I want even though I personally don`t have a clue of what I want yet because I only have second hand information, because it`s clearly P2W as soon as the clans are released until all of them are here. I`ll take a break until then so that you know exactly WHAT I want by reading my mind since I won`t be actively contributing"

While you stated that you are "Planning" on playing to reaffirm your suspicions, the phrasing of that statement together with the rest of your post already strongly implies that your opinion is already set in stone and that it won`t make any difference.

TL, DR: Can I have your stuff when you leave for good after them not fixing everything just so that your video watching experience is perfect every time? Becasue if you`re already making this much of a mountain out of it, you probably won`t be around when teh game is no longer P2W in your opinion, either.

Either that or just admit that despite your job you can`t afford a clan pack in these last few days due to mismanagement of funds and are posting this out of pure jealousy because "the Boogeymen are coming".

I mean no disrespect to you, but that is, as far as connotation and overally impression go, exactly what you posted, whether you realize it or not.

I usually argue with Z till Egomane deletes post but this is actually his first good post all year... overlook his trust fund attitude and he has some valid points.

[Grimm Peaper]

Pale Jackal, on 13 June 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

That presumes he isn't willing to spend money. I have spent money. PGIs behavior has shown that it's wiser not to give them money. Like the completely useless Founders mechs (except maybe the Jenner F) and Phoenix Primes.

You don't understand how this works. If you complain AND STILL GIVE THEM MONEY they have no incentive to change.

Wait, so you felt the founder's mechs were completely useless so you got upset. And then now the Clan mechs are supposedly OP and that also makes you upset?

Didn't they finally make it the way you wanted? Which way do you want it?

It sounds like you just want to be upset.

[Scratx]

I'm a founder and I don't feel my mechs are completely useless. They're exactly what I expected them to be and exactly what PGI promised them to be. ( cat arm boxes and rebuilding meshes/paint aside, anyways, but that's another subject and unrelated to how useful they are )

The fact hero mechs are their own variants and give a little more of a c-bill bonus doesn't mean founder mechs aren't what they're supposed to be. They're unique in their own way and they are very far from useless (especially at the time). And I love not having had to deal with trial mechs for my initial "grind" for funds...

[Kassatsu]

We'll see what kind of nerfs they have in store for Sunday's test. It's inevitable with how much people are complaining about brawling making such a huge comeback. Silly jump snipers, your safe point-and-click hiding spots aren't so safe anymore now that there are angry 90kph Timberwolves after you.

[MischiefSC]

Zerberus, on 13 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

So, instead of testing for yourself in the 12 hr timeframe allocated, you saw a fdew videos or streams and came to the conclusion that they`re OP. Despite the winning team more often than not being the side with more IS mechs on it.

I have a job, too, 12 hours a day, with a hour of transit each way, and I still mkanaged to test AND sleep AND wake up earl y and work again today. "I have a job" is usually a cop out reason with little actual substance, it usually is used to "justify" laziness or a lack of actual interest.

Either way, you then decided to write up a bigass post about how OP they "are" and implications of how PGI dropped the ball despite you holding their hand every step of the way (because, as armchair quarterbacks, we always know everything better). You then go on to cite a few pseudo-reasons, like the "Snails pace" of cbill release (which is significantly faster than the Phoenix release was, 2 mechs more in 3 weeks less) or the supposed "splitting "of the community into haves and have.nots.. Hyperbole much?.

And then you further devolve into what essentially amounts to "fix it the way I want even though I personally don`t have a clue of what I want yet because I only have second hand information, because it`s clearly P2W as soon as the clans are released until all of them are here. I`ll take a break until then so that you know exactly WHAT I want by reading my mind since I won`t be actively contributing"

While you stated that you are "Planning" on playing to reaffirm your suspicions, the phrasing of that statement together with the rest of your post already strongly implies that your opinion is already set in stone and that it won`t make any difference.

TL, DR: Can I have your stuff when you leave for good after them not fixing everything just so that your video watching experience is perfect every time? Becasue if you`re already making this much of a mountain out of it, you probably won`t be around when teh game is no longer P2W in your opinion, either.

Either that or just admit that despite your job you can`t afford a clan pack in these last few days due to mismanagement of funds and are posting this out of pure jealousy because "the Boogeymen are coming".

I mean no disrespect to you, but that is, as far as connotation and overally impression go, exactly what you posted, whether you realize it or not.

Wow. I can't read your post without coming away with the firm impression that you're a total and complete jackass.

I've edited back out what essentially equates to a bunch of personal attacks because it doesn't belong on the forums but you really make me a bit embarrassed to be human. Are you aware that it's possible to be worthy of attention without trying to make it negative attention? Your responses are some of the most depressing views into human nature I've seen in a long time.

The OP is expressing a few concerns that a lot of us have. The clan mechs are awesome - that's great! They are the awesome that the IS mechs should have been but were intentionally gimped from being. The incorporate the fixes into the broken and failed meta that has been MW:O for two years, using solutions that have been put on the forums for a long while. They are, quite literally, an opportunity for you to pay extra to get un-broken versions of the crap that we've been sold for the last 2 years. I can reasonably see someone getting frustrated with that. As to the 'haves vs have-nots', it's a legit concern. It's why P2W titles have been failing or changing and it is divisive in the community. Telling people 'you can pay $100, or you can wait 6 months where you get to either A) play a poptart or B ) play as a target or backup to someone who paid $100 or more' is going to fly about like you'd expect.

Admittedly I just spent a bunch of money on games today, both in upgrading my pledge to a game that went Alpha and because the 300i was just too damn sexy. I get spending money on games. The moment however you take a shared entertainment environment and start dividing ability to succeed and avenues to succeed via financial investment you create an issue.

The OPs totally right. He's probably not alone either. You're not right, and the truly depressing thing is that you're not alone - at least in that opinion. In life.... well, being proud of being a jerk and trying to cloak poor socialization and communication skills as 'calling people on their BS' when the implication is that, of course, you have some phenomenal insight into human behavior (that you seem incapable of actually putting effectively to use) and see everyone elses 'BS' while, in turn, spewing so much BS of your own that it's hard to find actual points in your comments.

Huh. Still ended up more personal than it should have been. You just make it difficult to pick how completely wrong you are out of who you are as a person. I'm absolutely serious when I say I'm sending your post onto a professor friend of my wife because I'm pretty sure there's a classification for it but the name escapes me right now.

[MischiefSC]

Ashaira, on 13 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

I have bad news for you. IS mechs with PP FLD are already superior to all other IS mechs. Don't like the meta either but there is a huge difference between my meta mech and all my other mechs in terms of performance.

Take it up with the meta not the clan mechs.

The issue isn't that poptarts are not still king - it's that they're the meta that everyone hates, so being IS means now you're humping the poptart meta because you're not going to out-brawl the Clan mechs. 90% of the game will end up in clan mechs, so how is CW going to work? In the end it'll likely work via letting people fight for their IS faction in Clan mechs.

Clan mechs are awesome. Fun and the weapon balance is what people have been crying for since the beginning. That's the issue. You can make a competitive Clan mechs with a variety of builds; dakka, missiles, lasers or a mix of them all and do well. Without the FLD pinpoint matches between mechs are more tactical than the game's been in ages.

THAT is the issue. IS mechs are balanced by playing a Phract, Victor, Raven or Spider. maybe a Jenner, and by playing them in the stale way they've been played for a year. In fact, doubling down on it. Your Dakka-Ilya that worked 'alright'? Trash now. You'll have some luck with a Gauss-jag, or a boom-jag, but even more marginal then before. The clan mechs all have you out-ranged and in close range where that DPS shines your boomjag won't be fast enough and the DPS is high enough that turning won't save you like it used to.

The Clans are what the game should have been on day 1. Minimal FLD, better balanced and fun to play weapons, all weight classes fit into their roles in a variety of ways and you've got a lot of build options. THAT, fundamentally, is the issue. Why would anyone want to play IS? Literally most of the mechs and 2 out of every 4 chassis for each mech are *intentionally* gimped in design, because forcing people to play crappy builds was somehow viewed as 'fun', or at least 'challenging'. It was neither, people hated it. It made progression a burden, not a joy. You were glad when it was done; not glad you were doing it. You thought the Awesome, Dragon, QD, they were bad before? Now there are Clan mechs that can do everything they did, but do it faster, better and while being *fun and competitive*.

Does that make sense? That's the issue. Do you really think Clan mechs, while being said to be 'balanced', won't be priced way higher? Of course they will. Do you see where that's going?

[ShadowWolf Kell]

I have a feeling the days of meta are coming to a close because further weapons tweaks for the IS are coming, to fit more in line with how the Clans perform.

One important thing I noticed on the PTS is how much longer fights went in general compared to the live servers when matches were mostly all Clan mechs. The lack of FLD was extremely apparent and I think that's why a lot of people were enjoying the experience overall, especially while brawling.

As it is on live, it's pretty common to be in a light or medium like a Shadow Hawk and dance around 3 or 4 mechs for quite awhile before finally dying. It seemed to be like that across the board on the PTS. There were many occassions where I was dancing around in my Timber Wolf with 3 and one point even 6 opponents blasting away at me and I survived a ridiculously lengthy amount of time. That never would have happened on the live servers against IS mechs.

The superiority of FLD is going to rear it's ugly head on the 17th and beyond and it's inevitable that it's going to get tweaked because the Clans have something the IS doesn't. Weapon balance across the board.

Up till now, the Clans have been balanced around the IS. From here on out, I think it'll be the other way around.

[Pale Jackal]

Grimm Peaper, on 13 June 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Wait, so you felt the founder's mechs were completely useless so you got upset. And then now the Clan mechs are supposedly OP and that also makes you upset?

Didn't they finally make it the way you wanted? Which way do you want it?

It sounds like you just want to be upset.

If you want to make a strawman argument, you're welcome to do so.

I could type a lengthier rebuttal, but the two points are not related. The fact that Founder 'mechs etc. are relatively weak was simply another reason to be dissatisfied with PGI's pre-purchase packages. I listed several other reasons in a previous post.

Clan 'mechs being over-powered is a problem for the game as a whole. A much bigger problem than weak incentives to pre-purchase.

Scratx, on 13 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm a founder and I don't feel my mechs are completely useless.

They're not completely useless, but PGI seems to have a trend of planned obsolence. Founder's Atlas is obsoleted by the DDC. Catapult C1 was never the strongest variant: both the K2 and A1 were superior in the past. The HBK has always been a joke. All the Phoenix Primes are a joke.

Ashaira, on 13 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

I have bad news for you. IS mechs with PP FLD are already superior to all other IS mechs. Don't like the meta either but there is a huge difference between my meta mech and all my other mechs in terms of performance.

Take it up with the meta not the clan mechs.

That's a fair point, I suppose Clan 'mechs being a challenge to poptarts is better than poptarts dominating everything. Still, that might encourage PGI to declare the game is "fixed" and leave tons of IS variants to rot.

Pygar, on 13 June 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Well, one reason it is still balanced is because lasers are in general kind of bad given the DOT mechanics and the way heat sinks work. (both in regards to the 1.4 DHS ratio, and the way they do cooling over time vs. instant heat from firing weapons.) Clan mechs do run considerably hot despite having slightly better DHS (space-wise)....all the Clan mechs except the Dire Wolf have fairly limited free tonnage for upgrades, so it's hard for them to give up tons for more heat sinks. (Which also, that same limited tonnage coupled with limited slots almost makes it so Clan mechs really need those smaller lasers to be that good....for example, the Nova is impressive with 6 ERML in each arm...but if you trade those ERMLs for PPCs instead, all of the sudden the Nova is somewhat underpowered compared to what other mediums can do.)

Well, I think it's clear that some 'mechs like the Timber Wolf do have limited pod space, they basically have a standard engine for all intents and purposes.

Besides, the fact that the Nova can mount 6 CERML 6 CERSL and 4 MG means it has a 42 point alpha due to its medium lasers alone at ~450m. It can still mount 15 or 17 DHS in that configuration.

A 72 point alpha at 180m over 1.3 seconds is not weak by anyways. 15 or 17 DHS (I forget) is better or equivalent to what many IS mediums carry. It can also survive the loss of a side torso. And has jump jets.

Does it lack pin point damage? Yes. However, I don't buy the argument that Clan cooling is weak. Is pod space limited? Sometimes, but the fact their medium lasers are akin to IS larges for a mere 1 ton does increase Clan firepower.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 13 June 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Aresye]

ShadowVFX, on 13 June 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

This might be true in many cases, but they have still divided the player community into two groups; the haves and the have-nots. And the have-nots get to be the second line, the B Team, the reserves. Their equipment simply can't compete with the Clan tech.

ಠ_ಠ

So what about us Clan players who have been in the "have-not" crowd for over TWO YEARS?

I'll tell you what. Face me 1on1 in the same IS build. You win and I'll consider your argument.

[Chimerahawk]

ShadowVFX, on 13 June 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

No, I have a job, so I wasn't on yesterday. And if you'll read my post (I'm not sure you read past the title), I said I plan to play a bit once they're released to reaffirm my impressions. I'm not flying off the handle blindly or anything. I might very well prove myself wrong on Tuesday night. But I'll be VERY surprised if I am.

Only clan weapon I found to be straight up over-powered was the clan SSRMs, and the medium lasers to some extent. The SSRMs because of 360 firing range. Mediums for the same reason.

In any case, the introduce of a large amount of new content always brings change, and throws off balance. There will also be the cases of, if the Clan mechs do outperform the IS mechs too much, how will IS mechs counter? Should be interesting if there is imbalance. More interesting to read about it later than to experience it, haha. Also forget to mention that not all features were released on the test server. Some are still getting finishing testing/touches they said, as I'm sure you heard.

Edited by Chimerahawk, 13 June 2014 - 11:22 PM.

[Suko]

Aresye, on 13 June 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

ಠ_ಠ

So what about us Clan players who have been in the "have-not" crowd for over TWO YEARS?

I'll tell you what. Face me 1on1 in the same IS build. You win and I'll consider your argument.

What 2 year long "have not" are you talking about? It's not like others had Clan mechs when you didn't. That doesn't make you a "have not", that makes you part of the rest of the player base that didn't have clan mechs.

From what I know (and I've been in this game since Day 1), none of the other mechs were exclusive for more than a few weeks before being purchasable with Cbills. The Founders mech equivalents could be bought with Cbills at launch. While the Phoenix mechs were exclusive for a bit, they didn't literally change the paradigm of the game with their release. They were simply "more of the same" and most agree they weren't that great (except the Shadow Hawk). Clan mechs are totally different and possibly the single largest gameplay change MWO has seen in the last 2 years. Unless you're willing to shell out $55 (that would've gotten you close to the third tier of the Phoenix packs) you're left out of the "new paradigm" for almost 5 months for some of the mechs.

Edited by ShadowVFX, 16 June 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Ultimax]

ShadowVFX, on 13 June 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

So, I will be playing June 17th and maybe even the remainder of that week. However, if the balance feels too out of whack between IS and Clan, I'll probably just take a hiatus until things balance out a bit, or until I can buy some of the Clan mechs I want with C-Bills.

There are really only a few outliers among the clan mechs, and even then it's specific builds.

Most of the visual effects like ballistics all over the place are more an illusion than anything (not that they don't deal solid damage, but it certainly isn't the same as FLD).

Even the vaunted Timber Wolf suffers from pretty meager available tonnage for weapons, for example while you'd think those 3x ballistics and 2x energy slots could let you run a jump jet Illya Build - you quickly realize that the Illya needs no DHS, and runs a 280 to 300 which is more than enough - and the Timber Wolf at 75 tons has 31.5 tons locked up in Mandatory 375XL and Mandatory 5x DHS in engine compared to the 14 or 15 tons the IM spends on it's engine leaving an extra 15 tons to invest in weapons and ammo.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 June 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Zeke Steiner]

If your trying to fight a clan mech 1v1 your doing something wrong.