524 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Um, you forget these are UACs. 12 tons for the ability to lay out 40 damage in approximately 1 second, vs 20 damage for 14 tons. And the IS has less range, and is bulkier.

Is it focused? Not as easily, but it's potential, compared to IS weapons, for damage is not even close.

Now you go and have an IS AC20 for more tonnage, more crits, less range.... and it lays out half the DPS?

How is that even remotely a balanced tradeoff.

Slow the cooldown for FLD. Heck, add a CoF past their optimal range if needed, but let's not out right neuter the IS mechs, and thus, the game-

I actually did mention that they are UAC. Wall of text, I know, but I did mention it. A double tapping UAC20 40 damage over 3 parts of an enemy mech is about 13 damage to any one part. Armor damage at worst. A single AC20 shell can crack the armor of a light mech wide open on a given section. Now you are dealing with potentially lethal internal damage. That is not equal at all, you are absolutely right. The IS have a serious advantage here, and the AC20 is not even an ultra. Hell, that does not even take into account that now that you shot that AC20, you now have the freedom to armor roll away, whereas the UAC20 user needs to keep staring at the target for the entire duration.

A longer cooldown for FLD is both a lazy and a poor balance mechanic. Hell, in some ways it can even be of benefit to making mechs more heat efficient for sloppy pilots. It still does nothing about hitting something hard, what few shots you make in a given time are worth a hell of a lot more, and it does nothing to impact mechs hiding behind cover, jump jetting up, and nailing you before falling down to safety relatively unmolested. Especially as they generally work in groups of 2 or 3.

Hell, Gauss and PPC both suffered hits to their rate of fire. Remember 3 second CD PPC? 4 seconds really made a hell of a difference. Or... did it? Gauss charge mechanics added an extra second and a half or so to the fire rate of gauss, yet those who pack them still function incredibly well. Cooldown does not always make for a good balance mechanic.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

A: SRMs would still be FLD.
B: You forget what happens to mediums on both sides with PPFLD everything. (Mediums are big targets that do not move fast enough to evade a surgical strike.)

1.) SRMs are scatter
2.) Clan SRMs > IS SRMs

I'm a medium mech jockey. My Wang carried a 4+KDR til the last fee months.


I have a question for everyone here. Who ACTUALLY put in time in IS mechs against the clans? My bet is very few of you.

[Rampancy]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

That would nerf them even further than a concentrated Burst fire would.



Your logic escapes me. How does proper use of twisting mitigate 30 points of surgical damage?


(You might have your shield arm in some cases to be removed by the first hit or two, but after that, then what?)

A turned medium at decent speed will spread "pinpoint" damage most of the time because the weapons will be converging at a point well past the mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Coralld, on 14 June 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Mr. OP.

That is what, my self, Cimarb, and others have been saying sense CB, that what the game needs is Burst Fire mechanic for ACs and we were ridiculed for it. However, after several years or so with FLD meta, more people have begone to change their minds. With the advent of the Clans and their burst fire, which people are actually enjoying it, just vindicates what we have been saying and were right all along.


That's funny considering I have been watching vids of people playing none meta IS mech and do just fine. The proposed changes to IS Burst Fire by reducing the number of shells fired per trigger pull will not be anywhere near as detrimental as you clame.
Currently, IS meta mechs still rofl stomp Clans just as easily as a regular IS none meta mech. Was watching a twitch feed at work from one of my friends on my lunch break, the game was awesome to watch and I so wanted to participate, but then a meta Victor appeared and annihilated everyone.

Gosh, well I can only speak as someone who played all 12 hours of the test. That happened...almost never. Yes, the FLD has it's advantages, but with better heat dissipation, better survivability and scads more available firepower, it's not near the done conclusion you assume. Sorry I didn't twitch everything, but I and my CGB brothers encountered 4 man premade Poptarts lances multiple times, and almost universally destroyed them, with our Inferior Clan Mechs.

Listening to all the chicken littles claiming the sky is falling was amusing, now it's just tedious. You got half the forum crying that Clan Mechs have killed the IS, and the other half still crying the IS mechs are going to OP the Clans due to FLD. And like listening to Liberals and Conservatives go round after round, both are so blinded by subjectivity and agenda as to not remotely get that the answer tend to almost always be much less drastic, sitting in the middle, just waiting for people to calm down and tweak a few things.

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

No,. making everything conform to the same DoT mechanic, actually would be the lazy approach, and ineffective for balance. Because short of making the IS weapons burst so short duration as to essentially be FLD, there is no possible way to balance them, using identical mechanics.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

No, it really wouldn't. It would reward players who use caution and good piloting. Same reason my YLW with an AC20 and its long cooldown is still able to compete with one using 2 UAC (which for all intents and purposes act as a burst weapon)

Aside from that being a personal anecdote- how does your YLW fair when the first 30pt FLD strips the armor off the arm? (For balance, one must assume that the other pilot is as skilled as you are.) As careful as you can be, there is always someone there to liberate you of that arm, along with 75% of your firepower.

Having the AC20 be a rapid triple burst would allow the YLW to still put most of it's damage in 1-2 sections, and more accurately with a projectile speed increase, while saving it the indignity of losing the armor on it in one shot.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Because short of making the IS weapons burst so short duration as to essentially be FLD, there is no possible way to balance them, using identical mechanics.

My idea supports making the burst shorter, as part of requiring fewer rounds.. but even a .2 second split in damage would mean the world to a medium or light mech, while not mattering much to a heavy or assault. (Which is what I am going after.)

I'll throw in one of my own anecdotes, as a fellow YLW pilot. One of the biggest things my YLW had going for it, and that frankly made it a superior medium, was that snapshot ability of using the ridiculous torso twist speed to shoot without even pausing the mech on it's way back to defensive posture. it was especially devastating to light mechs and other mediums.

Edited by Livewyr, 14 June 2014 - 08:27 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

No,. making everything conform to the same DoT mechanic, actually would be the lazy approach, and ineffective for balance. Because short of making the IS weapons burst so short duration as to essentially be FLD, there is no possible way to balance them, using identical mechanics.

Ineffective for balance how? Show me numbers, Bishop. I respect you as a pilot and a poster, but you have failed to convince that the Burst mechanic is lazy, a poor approach to balance. If anything FLD is the problem.

I am going to paint a somewhat exaggerated pair of scenarios here.

Picture a time where all lasers did all their damage immediately. Suddenly they become viable, and beyond broken. With very little middle ground here. Overall TTK for mechs drops like a rock, unless you jack up cooldowns for all weapons to such a degree that the heat system is redundant. This includes ACs, mind you.

Picture a time where all weapons (except Gauss and PPC, making them UNIQUE damage delivery systems - and LRMs which are, well, LRMs...) do damage over time in various degrees or else are scatter (LBX, SRMs), tuned specifically for the weapons being utilized. Suddenly lasers become far more competitive, TTK in the game INCREASES, heat management becomes a more important skill since you can no longer two or three shot people, and missiles are more competitive as a result of mechs being forced to engage for more than half a second at a time. Damage over time weapons result in play vs counterplay in fire vs armor roll. Consistency of accuracy is rewarded, so the skill cap increases.

This is a far more healthy approach to balance, and far less lazy then retaining a stale, broken mechanic.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Aside from that being a personal anecdote- how does your YLW fair when the first 30pt FLD strips the armor off the arm? (For balance, one must assume that the other pilot is as skilled as you are.) As careful as you can be, there is always someone there to liberate you of that arm, along with 75% of your firepower.

Having the AC20 be a rapid triple burst would allow the YLW to still put most of it's damage in 1-2 sections, and more accurately with a projectile speed increase, while saving it the indignity of losing the armor on it in one shot.

Huh, so killing ACs will keep mechs from triple PPCing or double guessing me? Astounding!

Guess what? A person wins the Chess match and gets me to twist and expose my RA to him... he deserves the win, and I don't QQ about it. Though my YLW has 32 armor...so should actually still be attached.

Conversely, because it is a single shot, FLD ac20 in my arm, if I win, I snap fire, twist to protect and take that shot on my left arm, as intended.

I swear, I don't think you guys see the long view, sorry, but keep up with the nerf this, nerf that, and soon we will be playing competitive cup stacking.

Variety, as long as controlled, adds to the game. Sameness makes MWO a dull boy.

[Livewyr]

RampancyTW, on 14 June 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

A turned medium at decent speed will spread "pinpoint" damage most of the time because the weapons will be converging at a point well past the mech.

That spread would occur is the Medium stayed facing the same direction, it isn't caused by the FLD, it is caused by the PP failure at distance. (Leading causes the convergence to fail.)

At shorter range, it matters not.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

My idea supports making the burst shorter, as part of requiring fewer rounds.. but even a .2 second split in damage would mean the world to a medium or light mech, while not mattering much to a heavy or assault. (Which is what I am going after.)

I'll throw in one of my own anecdotes, as a fellow YLW pilot. One of the biggest things my YLW had going for it, and that frankly made it a superior medium, was that snapshot ability of using the ridiculous torso twist speed to shoot without even pausing the mech on it's way back to defensive posture. it was especially devastating to light mechs and other mediums.

And required a decent skill level on your part, which is why YLW jocks are few and far between. In part because if you miss...no walking partial damage into him to claim a partial victory. If you can snap fire and nail a fast moving opponent, while snapping back to protect yourself from return fire.... YOU DESERVE THE WIN.

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Ineffective for balance how? Show me numbers, Bishop. I respect you as a pilot and a poster, but you have failed to convince that the Burst mechanic is lazy, a poor approach to balance. If anything FLD is the problem.

I am going to paint a somewhat exaggerated pair of scenarios here.

Picture a time where all lasers did all their damage immediately. Suddenly they become viable, and beyond broken. With very little middle ground here. Overall TTK for mechs drops like a rock, unless you jack up cooldowns for all weapons to such a degree that the heat system is redundant. This includes ACs, mind you.

Picture a time where all weapons (except Gauss and PPC, making them UNIQUE damage delivery systems - and LRMs which are, well, LRMs...) do damage over time in various degrees or else are scatter (LBX, SRMs), tuned specifically for the weapons being utilized. Suddenly lasers become far more competitive, TTK in the game INCREASES, heat management becomes a more important skill since you can no longer two or three shot people, and missiles are more competitive as a result of mechs being forced to engage for more than half a second at a time. Damage over time weapons result in play vs counterplay in fire vs armor roll. Consistency of accuracy is rewarded, so the skill cap increases.

This is a far more healthy approach to balance, and far less lazy then retaining a stale, broken mechanic.

lasers were broken because they are also hitscan. Big honking difference comparing pinpoint HITSCAN FLD with FLD with travel time.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

lasers were broken because they are also hitscan. Big honking difference comparing pinpoint HITSCAN FLD with FLD with travel time.

Excellent, then you concede THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN THE WEAPON SYSTEMS. There is your variety right there. Hitscan vs ballistics with drop and travel time vs guided munitions that require a lock. Spammy AC shells vs single shot gauss rifles with zero drop but a travel time. There is plenty of room for variety even with burst fire IS autocannons, bishop.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Sharknoms]

Diomed, on 14 June 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

Part of what made the PTS sessions so much fun was the lack of poptarts and a return to the traditional battletech meta. The changes to ACs and PPCs should be ported to IS weapons.

I agree on that.
Fights between Clan Mechs were exciting and lasted much longer than IS Mech vs IS Mech.
One particular fight was fun:
Me in Adder Prime and a modified Timberwolf S Against another Timberwolf Prime.
Until the very end the fight could go either way. (I screwes up a lot because I overheated a lot on Terra Therma)

[Livewyr]

Bishop, that is unbecoming of you.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Huh, so killing ACs will keep mechs from triple PPCing or double guessing me? Astounding!

Both triple PPC and Double Gauss have their disadvantages (PPC Ghost Heat, and Gauss Charge mechanic eliminating unpremeditated snap fire.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Guess what? A person wins the Chess match and gets me to twist and expose my RA to him... he deserves the win, and I don't QQ about it. Though my YLW has 32 armor...so should actually still be attached.

It's not the person you see that takes your arm, it's the person you didn't. (And yes, it would be attached, until the next hit by anything.)

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Conversely, because it is a single shot, FLD ac20 in my arm, if I win, I snap fire, twist to protect and take that shot on my left arm, as intended.

In a duel, that works. In a 12v12, you just lose your arm early.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

I swear, I don't think you guys see the long view, sorry, but keep up with the nerf this, nerf that, and soon we will be playing competitive cup stacking.

We've been discussing the FLD problem since long before the clans were presented. It was a problem then, and it's still a problem now.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Variety, as long as controlled, adds to the game. Sameness makes MWO a dull boy.

We are not in disagreement here.

Fewer, Faster, Stronger Shells (IS) vs More, Slower, Weaker Shells (Clan)

That is controlled variety that adds survivability to medium and light mechs.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

And required a decent skill level on your part, which is why YLW jocks are few and far between. In part because if you miss...no walking partial damage into him to claim a partial victory. If you can snap fire and nail a fast moving opponent, while snapping back to protect yourself from return fire.... YOU DESERVE THE WIN.

YLW is also the only mech that can do that. (Any other IS medium with an AC20 simply isn't moving fast enough, regardless.)
(That is the beginnings of a P2W argument.)

---------
If I can do that with 3 shells, I deserve the win even more so.

[General Taskeen]

AC's were burst fire in most MW games, so I don't see what the problem is. Did people complain about "differences" back then? Because I don't remember much of that, usually just more of the same old-same old about min/maxing.

I mean imagine if this WAS in. Imagine if they even added Manufactured type IS AutoCannons with different classic BT names that have slight differences (shooting different number of shells for some trade of, a little more heat, or a cool down difference).

I will say that the way regular IS AC's are right now and Clan AC's, simply as far as firing mechanics go, seems way familiar to me. Almost a direct copy of LL AC firing mechanics.

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 June 2014 - 08:44 AM.

[Coralld]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Gosh, well I can only speak as someone who played all 12 hours of the test. That happened...almost never. Yes, the FLD has it's advantages, but with better heat dissipation, better survivability and scads more available firepower, it's not near the done conclusion you assume. Sorry I didn't twitch everything, but I and my CGB brothers encountered 4 man premade Poptarts lances multiple times, and almost universally destroyed them, with our Inferior Clan Mechs.

Listening to all the chicken littles claiming the sky is falling was amusing, now it's just tedious. You got half the forum crying that Clan Mechs have killed the IS, and the other half still crying the IS mechs are going to OP the Clans due to FLD. And like listening to Liberals and Conservatives go round after round, both are so blinded by subjectivity and agenda as to not remotely get that the answer tend to almost always be much less drastic, sitting in the middle, just waiting for people to calm down and tweak a few things.


No,. making everything conform to the same DoT mechanic, actually would be the lazy approach, and ineffective for balance. Because short of making the IS weapons burst so short duration as to essentially be FLD, there is no possible way to balance them, using identical mechanics.

True, I was not able to join in on the fun, which is why I stated that I was at work and there for was just an observer as to not give people falls impressions.

Wait, we are the chicken littles? Who was it that came in here saying it would be the end to IS ACs VS Clan ones if IS ACs got even at least a 2 shell burst per trigger pull?

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

And the case against the IS having Burst Fire ACs?
Pretty simple.

Clan Burst fire is what balances them having UAC20s vs our UAC5s. Remove that, and no matter how you want to tweak the attendant numbers, Clan ACs will just flat out be better, period.

Clans win the DPS and Tonnage War, IS wins the FLD battle. Simple as that, and how it should remain.

These are your words. So, I don't know about you but that right there is a pot calling the kettle black statement if there ever was one.

As for your third paragraph. You do realize that the pause between shells for burst mechanic can be changed as well as projectile velocity.

In short, sorry, your argumant holds about as much water as a 10 gallon fish tank with no bottom.

[Bishop Steiner]

Oh dear god. I'm sorry,. but no. I really hope Heavy Gear works out, because if the Devs listen to this, I certainly won't want anything to do with MWO anymore.

And I don't even poptart or favor FLD heavily. But you guys are trying to totally demolish and rebuild a house that needs a mild renovation.

Obviously, we will not agree on this. Pretty much ever. So I am done trying to debate with you, as anything further threatens to just devolve into an argument, which would accomplish nothing. But if you do get your way, remind me to to tell you "I told you so" when the game is as stale as 2 week old bread.

[Jack Corban]

I am all for the Burst fire on all AC weapons. Ultra AC weapons only shoud have a double tap function to put more slugs down the line in a faster rate.

Look at the depiction of the Centurion and the Hunchback 4G in this Old Intro to Mechcommander 1 This is how Mechwarrior should play and feel aswell. And by that i mean aswell how hard it is to overcome even one single Clan mech. But eh this is a totally different discussion wich involves Hardpoint sizes Battlevalue and many many other things i have talked about to no avail in great manner over and over on these forum just to be shouted down by the CoD/Whiteknight/Casual Crowd that makes this game their own now.

Cheers

Edited by Jack Corban, 14 June 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[Rampancy]

I agree with Bishop that the IS needs the AC to remain FLD weapons to stay viable. The clan weapons kick out a ton of firepower with a longer range and lower weight, but it's hard to put all of that on target. The damage potential is enormous, but it takes a lot of pilot skill to take full advantage of it. So with 2 "normal" caliber pilots, one using an IS AC system, one using a Clan AC system, it should come out roughly even. Which is GREAT.

If you add that same difficulty of use to the IS systems, they're just outright inferior. Lower damage potential and range for higher weight. It just doesn't cut it.

Clan mechs deal more damage but do so over a longer time. Which will allow an IS mech to get in his quick burst of damage and try to spread the return fire. Incidentally I think IS pulse lasers will see an increase in usage for the same reasons, and they should be competitive at brawling range with clan weapons systems.

The piece you're missing out of all of this is that while the IS can spread incoming damage better than the Clan equivalents, you can only spread for so long. Great, you only took 10 out of 40 damage on your CT! You can do that maybe twice before the rest of your components start falling off in a hurry. IS vs. Clan is going to come down to skill vs. skill with current balance, but making IS mechs require more time on target is would ruin that.

General Taskeen, on 14 June 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

AC's were burst fire in most MW games, so I don't see what the problem is. Did people complain about "differences" back then? Because I don't remember much of that, usually just more of the same old-same old about min/maxing.

To my knowledge, MW3 was the only Mechwarrior game with burst-fire autocannons.

[Bishop Steiner]

Coralld, on 14 June 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

True, I was not able to join in on the fun, which is why I stated that I was at work and there for was just an observer as to not give people falls impressions.

Wait, we are the chicken littles? Who was it that came in here saying it would be the end to IS ACs VS Clan ones if IS ACs got even at least a 2 shell burst per trigger pull?

These are your words. So, I don't know about you but that right there is a pot calling the kettle black statement if there ever was one.

As for your third paragraph. You do realize that the pause between shells for burst mechanic can be changed as well as projectile velocity.

In short, sorry, your argumant holds about as much water as a 10 gallon fish tank with no bottom.

Yes, the guy who walks into a movie theater where people are screaming fire because a person is smoking a cigarette is the one overreacting. Brilliant! Got to love the preemptive call to arms to fix EVERYTHING before it really even gets any sort of decent test to see if it is actually broken. That's why I seldom pay your posts any mind, high on overreaction and emotion, ramping up to turbo, far too fast.


3rd paragraph, you mean the one where I point o0ut how it balances the two factions? Bravo on proving...nothing?


IS has better FLD, Never argued they didn't. Clans have multiple other advantages. FLD is not some tactical nuke that trumps all other things, except in the minds of those who refuse to look outside the box and see the total picture. If you feel that I am trying to describe YOU with that, well maybe you should think about it, then.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 June 2014 - 08:50 AM.