62 replies to this topic

[Atheus]

Your system is probably in the realm of pending scrap. Generally CPU's have a MTBF of about 5 years, so depending on how much you've used that computer there's a fair chance that aside from being inadequate performance-wise, it will start failing in other ways as well. If you're going to do hold-over updates to that computer, I would focus on items that can be transferred to a new computer when that time comes. The biggest improvement you can make will be the video card, and that is one item that is easy to pull back out and put into a new system down the road. The CPU cooler/overclock idea is also portable, but swapping CPU coolers around is a bit messier. If I were you I would pick up the best video card I could afford right now and see how that goes. If you're still not getting enough FPS, then try a little overclock (do what you can with your stock cooler) and see if it makes a difference. If it does, maybe invest in a cooler master hyper 212 EVO or similar $30ish cpu cooler and overclock the heck out of that CPU. If you're still not getting to par you'll just have to save your pennies for a new system. There should be an interesting unlocked Intel CPU coming out this summer which should be pretty budget friendly, so keep an eye out for that.

[Driftwoood]

Thanx for all the opinions and feedback... great community here, really appreciate the responses...thinking about all that, and realizing the rig is 5yrs old already, I don't want to put too much money into it, as I'll just get a new one sooner or later...

Using AMD System Monitor, it looks like the GPU is the 1st bottleneck, as its running in the 90%+ range during the game... the CPU cores run as Alreech said: core 4 80%+ and the other 3 running 40-60% or so... so seems to agree with most peoples thoughts here...

The memory, i dunno... it says 10% is free and maybe 20% on standby... but I would get similar readings when one of the simms burned out and I was running only 2G for a while...

I'm leaning towards not getting parts that I would put into a new system later because: 1) if the performace boost here is decent, I'm may hang on to this PC for another couple of years, and by then, these parts will probably be below average again, and 2) this PC will be repurposed for work after... nothing intensive, but much better than the even older PC I have there now...


To clarify, with min settings, I get average fps ~30, dropping into the teens... I'd like to get to maybe ~55 average fps, and maybe 35 fps min, with all/most detail settings set high at 1920x1080...

Is that achievable if I shell out, say $250?

Let say I get the fan SmokeyJedi recommended (found it here at my local supplier) - $35
http://www.ncix.com/...vo-6a-64385.htm

I grab the extra ram, 2x2G - $45 (any more opinions on whether this will make any difference?)
http://www.ncix.com/...-57952-1068.htm

And a new GPU for say $150-$180... as far as which one, well:
1. Given the comments I've come across here about even new AMD rigs having issues with this game, should I go with a Gforce card instead of Radeon? I've also been told that with AMD CPU, best to go with a AMD GPU... so?
2. I cheaped out on the power supply on this PC, only 460W... but all the system has is a 1TB hard drive and a DVD burner, so I think I'm ok... should I be concerned with the power requirements of a new replacement GPU? Hard to find the power requirements... if power is an issue, i know the gtx 750 ti is a lower power option...

BTW, here is my motherboard: ASUS M4A77TD ATX AM3 DDR3 AMD770 SB710 PCI-E16 2PCI-E1 3PCI IDE 6SATA Sound

So... I know we're just estimating here, but what sort of performance should that give me?

Edited by Driftwoood, 15 June 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[Uparmored Rickshaw]

Good luck. You can lead a horse to water.......

[Alreech]

Driftwoood, on 15 June 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

And a new GPU for say $150-$180... as far as which one, well:
1. Given the comments I've come across here about even new AMD rigs having issues with this game, should I go with a Gforce card instead of Radeon? I've also been told that with AMD CPU, best to go with a AMD GPU... so?
2. I cheaped out on the power supply on this PC, only 460W... but all the system has is a 1TB hard drive and a DVD burner, so I think I'm ok... should I be concerned with the power requirements of a new replacement GPU? Hard to find the power requirements... if power is an issue, i know the gtx 750 ti is a lower power option...

The problem with AMD & MWO is only CPU related.

Without overclocking the Phenom IIs don't reach the high clocks MWO needs.
MWO don't run well on new FX 8350 CPUs because they are an 8 core for normal calculations and a 4 core for floating point operations.

In the test of gamegpu.ru a AMD card is on top of the chart, a 7970 Ghz Edition.
This card was renamend by AMD and is sells now as R9 280X
I chose the cheaper variant of it, the R9 280 (old name: 7950)
Both cards have a 384 bit Ram interface and 3 GB of Ram, the difference is that the R9 280 has fewer shaders and lower clockrates - and a lower power consumption.
Sadly both cards are way out of you maximum price of 180$

The R9 265 and R9 270 (old name: 7850 & 7870) have a 256 bit interface an 2 GB Ram, that's more than enough for MWO.

The nVidea gtx 750 ti has only a 128 bit memory interface and that's IMHO not enough for gaming. Good nvidea Cards according to the test are the GTX 660, GTX 680 and GTX 690. The cheapest of them is the 660 (around 220$).

Both nVidea and AMD have some nice promos with free games, for example Watchdogs. If you plan to buy such a game anyway even a more expensive card with a free game is a good bargain.

[WarGruf]

Sorry Mr Henchman 24 but your only partially right

Crossfire has been working since DX11 was injected. The benefits are around 10% increase in FPS and stability, with cooler temps across the GPUs.... The problem being 10% for me is 55Fps to 60Fps a 5Fps increase, granted less dipping Fps in combat but it still pretty poor scaling. The reason for that is as you said PGI still has not gotten around to the Fix yet..
Otherwise I have no problems with CryEngine games from other titles 1920x1080 with maxed detail in most, my monitor only supports upto 60Hz anyhow

Still might just buy an R9 290 with my next pay check... Hmm...

[Carbon Guardian]

First off my rig is very similar to yours same cpu, 4 gigs of ram (my ram has a slower latency 1333), 600 watt psu, the difference is our video cards I have a xfx radeon 6850 (almost 2 years old), with most recent beta build from amd. I run on high settings at ~35- 40fps.

I had all kinds of problems until I found my motherboard drivers weren't all up to date! I updated my motherboard drivers and that took care of business. Like I wrote above I use high settings and my rig is almost identical.

So be careful when reading some of these replies on what needs to be done I would first make sure you have all drivers on all hardware up to date, then look at your internet connection followed by a new GPU.

When I was investigating cpu bottleneck my cpu uses around 60% while playing MWO.

Edited by Carbon Guardian, 15 June 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[Driftwoood]

Ok, I've thought about it some more and decided to do this one step at a time, starting with the GPU...

I've decided I will shell out a little more to hopefully get a GPU that will still be decent in a couple years when I get a new MB and CPU...

With that in mind, is $250 going to get me such a GPU, or will it be crap in 2 years as well?

I looked at Tom's Hardware Best Graphics Cards For The Money: June 2014, so thought I'd look for an R9 270... Looking at a list from my local supplier, I can't tell the difference between all these cards, other than the price...
A little help please...

http://search.ncix.c...atid=0&q=r9+270

I also had a quick peak at the R9 280s available and came across this one on sale, the cheapest of the R9 280s... am I much better off going with this one?

http://www.ncix.com/...-95514-1470.htm

Thanks in advance for the help...



Edit: One last note, should I be concerned about power requirements with the new GPU replacing the Radeon HD 5770... only got a 460W PSU, but again, all this PC has is a 1TB HDD and a DVD burner...

Edited by Driftwoood, 16 June 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[Alreech]

Driftwoood, on 16 June 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

With that in mind, is $250 going to get me such a GPU, or will it be crap in 2 years as well?

I looked at Tom's Hardware Best Graphics Cards For The Money: June 2014, so thought I'd look for an R9 270... Looking at a list from my local supplier, I can't tell the difference between all these cards, other than the price...
A little help please...

http://search.ncix.c...atid=0&q=r9+270

I also had a quick peak at the R9 280s available and came across this one on sale, the cheapest of the R9 280s... am I much better off going with this one?
http://www.ncix.com/...-95514-1470.htm

The R9 270 are all more or less the same. The difference (fps, heat, noise) isn't great between the cards.

The German Version of Toms Hardware has a nice overview. While it's in German, the Pictures and Charts are still useful, especially the chart with the dimensions.
http://www.tomshardw...e-241406-3.html

The MSI Gaming Cards have good reviews, the Cooler is strong and silent, and the card doesn't need much space.

I choose the R9 280 rather than the R9 270x because the 280 has more Ram (3 GB vs 2 GB) and a wider Memory Interface ( 384 bit vs 256 ). But Power consumption is a little bigger.
R9 280x: 250 Watt (old name 7970 Ghz Edition)
R9 280: 210 Watt (old name7950 Ghz Edition)
R9 270x: 161 Watt (old name 7870 Ghz Edition)
R9 270: 147 Watt (old name 7870)
R7 265: 105 Watt (old name 7850)

Both R9 280 and R9 270x two 6 pin sockets for the psu cable. Important is the maximum current on this cable, for example 12 Volts x 20 Amperé will give you 240 Watts, more than enough for a R9 280.
According to AMD your old HD 5770 needs only 108 Watt.

Edited by Alreech, 16 June 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[ninjitsu]

Manufacturer recommended power supply for an R9 270 is 500w, I'd think your 460w PSU should be ok. Assuming you've got the 6 pin plug that's required.

[Catamount]

Those recommendations assume crappy power supplies that can't meet their stated wattage. It avoids situations where they recommend something more realistic like 300W, and then someone gets a "350W" Diablotek PhD that can't put out 200W on a good day, and when it explodes and takes out three city blocks, the user goes crying to the manufacturer.

[Uparmored Rickshaw]

ninjitsu, on 16 June 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

Manufacturer recommended power supply for an R9 270 is 500w, I'd think your 460w PSU should be ok. Assuming you've got the 6 pin plug that's required.

LMFAO! A 650W would be preferred for a system with the R9 270. 460 does NOT equal 500.

[Lordred]

LeonidasBD, on 16 June 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

LMFAO! A 650W would be preferred for a system with the R9 270. 460 does NOT equal 500.

Depends on the quality of the PSU. If he has a real quality 460w, it will be enough.

[ninjitsu]

LeonidasBD, on 16 June 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

LMFAO! A 650W would be preferred for a system with the R9 270. 460 does NOT equal 500.

a 270 needing 650 watts. That's just silly. http://www.tomshardw...0x,3635-18.html

[Driftwoood]

Lordred, on 16 June 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Depends on the quality of the PSU. If he has a real quality 460w, it will be enough.

Well, the PSU is 5yrs old now...
Coolermaster Elite Power 460W ATX Power Supply 12V V2.3 20/24PIN 120MM Fan
I believe Coolermaster is quality?

I'm leaning towards the R9 280, so that its still decent in a couple years when I get around to building a new rig...

Given it'll be running in this old rig for now, and I'll be CPU bottle necked once its in, its probably not going to be pulling full power, right?

But assuming the PSU is insufficient... what's the worst that can happen?

[Lordred]

Driftwoood, on 16 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

But assuming the PSU is insufficient... what's the worst that can happen?

Cook the computer due to low voltage.

[ninjitsu]

Driftwoood, on 16 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Well, the PSU is 5yrs old now...
Coolermaster Elite Power 460W ATX Power Supply 12V V2.3 20/24PIN 120MM Fan
I believe Coolermaster is quality?

I'm leaning towards the R9 280, so that its still decent in a couple years when I get around to building a new rig...

Given it'll be running in this old rig for now, and I'll be CPU bottle necked once its in, its probably not going to be pulling full power, right?

But assuming the PSU is insufficient... what's the worst that can happen?

The R9 280 pulls a considerably larger amount of power than the 270. It would be a pretty poor idea to attempt to run it on a 460 watt psu. You're risking some expensive hardware. I've seen manufacturer recommended PSU's anywhere from 600 watts to 750 watts. Maybe you should consider a less expensive video card and upgrading your Power Supply as well.

Edit: This PSU has a pretty good rebate right now http://www.newegg.co...025&ignorebbr=1

Edited by ninjitsu, 16 June 2014 - 10:49 PM.

[Goose]

Driftwoood, on 16 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Well, the PSU is 5yrs old now …

Coolermaster Elite Power 460W ATX Power Supply 12V V2.3 20/24PIN 120MM Fan

I believe Coolermaster is quality?

Oh: $@#%!

http://www.tomshardw...ock,2739-5.html

Paul Henningsen, on September 8, 2010 12:00 AM said:

This knowledge, coupled with a very tight budget, set us searching through a sea of inexpensive power supplies (not a place we're used to looking) Skimping on the power supply is one of those novice mistakes that you make once, but never again, leading to stability issues, data corruption, and even premature hardware failure. In general, choose quality over marketing-drive wattage ratings or flashy bling.

Perhaps you're wondering why we picked Cooler Master's Elite 460 W unit here. Unlike the company’s well-regarded high-end offerings, its entry-level Extreme and Elite lines are notorious for outputting less power than they're rated for (a trait not all too uncommon among “cheap” PSUs).

Quite simply, we chose to ignore both the unit’s rating and potential rating discrepancy. Instead, we focused on what we could get for the near-impossible $30 price we could afford to pay. Although this unit is adequate for our needs, understand that its limitations affect future upgrades, too.

Load test data found in this review† reveals that the Elite RS-430’s 12 V and overall output levels are weak for the claimed 460 W rating. But the data also depicts a fairly decent sub-400 W PSU with “outstanding” voltage regulation, acceptable ripple and noise, and even 80+ efficiency between 150-300 W.

For our power-sipping gaming system, we think it's far better to use a thoroughly-reviewed unit than take our chances on other $30 options of unknown quality.

† http://www.hardwares...y-Review/1005/7

Gabriel Torres, on May 21, 2010 said:

Cooler Master Elite Power 460 W can't deliver its labeled power. The maximum we could pull from it was 420 W. If we tried to pull more than that the unit would shut down (at least it didn't burn or explode). What is most important here is that this is exactly the same amount that we could pull from Elite Power 400 W, proving that the replacement of the rectifying bridge (the only component that is different between these two units) didn't make any difference: Elite Power 400 W and Elite Power 460 W are exactly the same power supply with a different label (and price tag). It is simply unbelievable that Cooler Master is doing this kind of thing.

Efficiency was above 80% when we pulled between 150 W and 300 W from this unit. Not bad.

Voltage regulation was outstanding, with all voltages within 3% from their nominal values (except -12 V output during tests one through 10) - i.e., values closer to their "face value" than required, as the ATX12V specification allows voltages to be within 5% from their nominal values (10% for -12 V).

Noise and ripple exceeded the maximum allowed at +12VA during test 15, with the power supply delivering 420 W. During this test noise and ripple levels were: 123.4 mV at +12VA; 105.0 mV at +12VB; 23.4 mV at +5 V; 37 mV at +3.3 V; 35.2 mV at +5VSB; and 85.8 mV at -12 V. The maximum allowed is 120 mV on +12 V and -12 V outputs and 50 mV on +5 V, +3.3 V and +5VSB outputs. All values are peak-to-peak figures.

Conclusions

Cooler Master Elite Power 460 W is simply an Elite Power 400 W with a new label. The two units are absolutely the same (the only component that was upgraded was the rectifying bride, but this change didn't make any difference in performance). This is simply unbelievable. We wouldn't be surprised to see this kind of thing still happening in China, but here in the United States? C'mon…

Another example of false advertisement is the manufacturer listing over current protection (OCP) as a feature available on this power supply: Inside the unit the space labeled "OCP control board" is empty.

This unit can't deliver its labeled power - like Elite Power 400 W, it can only deliver up to 420 W. To make things worse, this unit is sold for USD 10 more than Elite Power 400 W - an extra 33% profit for Cooler Master for counterfeiting their own power supplies.

So: Use eXtreme Power Supply Calculator Pro to see if 420W (and 31.5A on the +12V rail) will render your excretment perpendicular to the plan of gravity …

[Driftwoood]

Goose, on 17 June 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

Oh: $@#%!

http://www.tomshardw...ock,2739-5.html


† http://www.hardwares...y-Review/1005/7

So: Use eXtreme Power Supply Calculator Pro to see if 420W (and 31.5A on the +12V rail) will render your excretment perpendicular to the plan of gravity …

rofl, thats hilarious... awesome that you found that... happily, I haven't had any problems with this power supply... and I was already thinking I probably need to get a new PSU if I want the R9 280, but that's the final nail in the coffin...

But its starting to make me wonder if I shouldn't just build a new rig... argh, so torn...

Edited by Driftwoood, 17 June 2014 - 02:01 AM.

[TuntematonSika]

Driftwoood, on 14 June 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

So i only recently decided to check out the MWO game specs:

MechWarrior Online Recommended System Spec:
CPU: Core i3-2500 / AMD Athlon II X4 650
GPU:GeForce GTX 285 / Radeon HD 5830
RAM: 8 GB
OS: Windows 7 SP-1 64-Bit
DirectX: DX9
HDD Space: 8 GB

And realized my system is almost there, yet I have to play everything on minimal settings to get decent frame rate (20-40) in game... so I wanted to check here with some more knowledgable people: where's the bottleneck in my system? what do I upgrade to run MWO on high(est) settings?

My Rig:
CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Quad Core Processor AM3 3.4GHZ 8MB Cache 125W 45NM
GPU: Powercolor Radeon HD 5770 PCs 875MHZ 1GB 4.9GHZ GDDR5 2XDVI HDMI DP DIRECTX11 PCI-E
RAM: 4 GB - G.SKILL Ripjaws X F3-12800CL9D-4GBXL 4GB 2X2GB DDR3-1600 CL9-9-9-24 Memory
OS: Windows 7 SP-1 64-Bit

Looking at the above, my CPU is above requirements... GPU, almost... so the short fall has to be that I only have 4GB ram?

With that in mind, its $45 to get 4 more GB of the same ram... or I could by new 2x4GB for $93... don't really want to shell out much more money on this computer as I'll probably get a new one in a couple of years... am I likely to see better performance with the 2x4GB setup vs 4x2GB?

The only bottleneck I can see is the Graphics card. I would recommend purchasing a new one, like a 750ti, Which has incredible bang for the buck and bang for the watt (Reference model 60W)

Take note that i run on a rig with 4GB DDR2 unmatched memory running at 667Mhz. Your ram is adequate, as it fits the minimum requirements.

[Chrithu]

ninjitsu, on 14 June 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

The Phenom II 965 is roughly 5 years old. That's the first bottle neck, followed by the video card. Pretty much time for a new rig

Yeah well. I call bullshit on that one. At least in case of MWO. The game is badly badly VERY badly optimized for both CPUs and GPUs. Wait until the game is out of beta then decide on hardware upgrades. I sure as hell won't fight the shortcomings of PGI by throwing money out the window for hardware.