153 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

ExoForce, on 20 June 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

First you freaked me up, so Ive checked Alpine and Caustic. Still doing ridiculous huge high amount of damage on them with my Stalky.Testing continues, I will log postbattle data for my chronicles.

Can you please make sure to note how many AMS is on the opposing team, how many ECM mechs are on the other team, how many of them mount the Radar Deprivation Module, how many TAG mechs you have and how many times your team has NARC?

Otherwise data doesn't show us anything.

LRMs are still teetering in being ok in the low to mid ELO levels because there hasn't been a large proliferation of the new module. Also no one seems to be mounting AMS.

Lastly, having only the Kit Fox with ECM on the clan side is leaving teams light on ECM right now.

You can't really tell anything until it settles down more.

By the way...seriously...mount AMS if you are scared of LRMs.

If 12 mechs have one AMS...not including the double/triple mounting mechs....Clan LRMs become less than useless.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 20 June 2014 - 05:42 AM.

[Varik Ronain]

I never really thought about what it is like for clan LRMs, I have seen a fair amount of the module and sometimes a staggering amount of AMS. I would think that it would be harder for clan mechs to deal with this situation.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Varik Ronain, on 20 June 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

I never really thought about what it is like for clan LRMs, I have seen a fair amount of the module and sometimes a staggering amount of AMS. I would think that it would be harder for clan mechs to deal with this situation.

It's definitely interesting. I don't know, I just hate this song and dance we do with LRMs. There are SO many factors to account for.

Adv. Sensor Range, Adv. Target Decay, TAG, NARC, Ghost Heat, Missile Tube Sizes, Artemis, AMS(s), ECM(s), Radar Deprivation, Missile Warning (when it works), AMS Overload, AMS Range and then you have Clan LRMs, IS LRMs and 4 different launcher sizes. And each launcher takes more or less advantage of various other items in the list.

And then there is stacking...while the beneficial items for LRMs have certain limits to stacking...AMS and ECM stack like crazy to counteract various benefits.

And the matchmaker takes NONE of it into account.

So if I drop on Caustic with a NARC/TAG Raven in an LRM 60. And low and behold, my team has 4 other LRM heavy mechs.

Oh and of course, the opposing team has no ECM, 3 AMS and no one with Radar Dep...you know exactly how that's going to go. They will be crushed.

Same drop on Caustic...5 of us are LRM mechs again, even have NARC/TAG Raven. But this time the opposing team has 4 ECM mechs, 8 AMS and a few Radar Deprivations sprinkled in.

That match has the potential to be even, but that's a lot for LRMs to over come, since stacking ECM blocks the NARC and 8 AMS chews through Clan LRMs especially.

Then you could drop on Caustic, with 6 or 7 LRM boats, but no TAG/NARC spotter. And the opposing team has 8 AMS and 4 ECM still, and half the team has Radar Deprivation. They quickly realize the amount of LRMs you have, and just decide to crush you.

It's a balance catastrophe.

Unlike every other weapon in the game.

And all of this, because they can fire indirectly and kill derps? I'm sorry, it needs a total revamp.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 20 June 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[ExoForce]

I like reading discussions and have learned a lot from them. I have learned even more from death/kill/heat maps posted on this site. Make it rain...

[Varik Ronain]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 June 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

It's definitely interesting. I don't know, I just hate this song and dance we do with LRMs. There are SO many factors to account for.

Adv. Sensor Range, Adv. Target Decay, TAG, NARC, Ghost Heat, Missile Tube Sizes, Artemis, AMS(s), ECM(s), Radar Deprivation, Missile Warning (when it works), AMS Overload, AMS Range and then you have Clan LRMs, IS LRMs and 4 different launcher sizes. And each launcher takes more or less advantage of various other items in the list.

And then there is stacking...while the beneficial items for LRMs have certain limits to stacking...AMS and ECM stack like crazy to counteract various benefits.

And the matchmaker takes NONE of it into account.

So if I drop on Caustic with a NARC/TAG Raven in an LRM 60. And low and behold, my team has 4 other LRM heavy mechs.

Oh and of course, the opposing team has no ECM, 3 AMS and no one with Radar Dep...you know exactly how that's going to go. They will be crushed.

Same drop on Caustic...5 of us are LRM mechs again, even have NARC/TAG Raven. But this time the opposing team has 4 ECM mechs, 8 AMS and a few Radar Deprivations sprinkled in.

That match has the potential to be even, but that's a lot for LRMs to over come, since stacking ECM blocks the NARC and 8 AMS chews through Clan LRMs especially.

Then you could drop on Caustic, with 6 or 7 LRM boats, but no TAG/NARC spotter. And the opposing team has 8 AMS and 4 ECM still, and half the team has Radar Deprivation. They quickly realize the amount of LRMs you have, and just decide to crush you.

It's a balance catastrophe.

Unlike every other weapon in the game.

And all of this, because they can fire indirectly and kill derps? I'm sorry, it needs a total revamp.

(sarcasm alert) But LRMs are EASY MODE right? (sarcasm/) Look I agree the system needs an overhaul and I firmly believe that PGI will do nothing about it for a very long while. In the mean time though there are ways to mitigate much of what we may face in matches. I am not going to say it always works out because every match is pretty damn random with what your team will bring and what the enemy will bring as well. Sure sometimes it is impossible to make much of an impact no matter what you do. I posted in a kitfox thread about an encounter I had with 3 of those devils. I narced, tagged and used a UAV and fired well over 1000 missiles before I went down for a whopping 100 or so damage even with solid locks.

You also make very good points about matchmaker and how it does not take many things into account. I have not been having a lot of luck recently dropping with ECM coverage for the team I am on and having to face 2 or more ECM mechs. The screenshot I posted of my loss on caustic you will notice we did manage to have a DDC but he turned his ECM to countering the enemy ECM. The issue was where he was fighting was no where near the enemy ECM mechs. He charged off to the flank where Ghost Badgers Alpha lance was and despite our best effort managed to get beat to death. We managed to take that lance out but the rest of our team was mauled because of that action. ECM is a very powerful tool a shame most of the time it seems I drop on teams that squander it on maps such as caustic.

I do try to think of it as a challenge and try my best to make them work and as you can see I run a very unorthodox build to get there. I understand my play-style does not appeal to many players but it does work for me. Good spotters are very hard to find outside of premades so I encourage those stubborn souls who want to keep using LRMs to take over some of that responsibility.

[Pygar]

Just give us smoke dispensers that we can spaaaaaaaaaam a lot and block LOS for direct fire mechs for a really really really really long time.

C'mon PGI, the RDM is like the 7 billionth thing in MWO that makes being a missile boat pilot frustrating, and none of the "countermeasure" gear makes any difference at all to direct fire pilots- let's turn the tables around....Smoke Dispenser module: launches just slightly ahead of users mech, creates 2 and a half buttloads of smoke that blocks LOS so direct fire mechs can't aim properly, can't see which way you are moving and can't tell how many buddies you have with you. LETS DO THIS.

Edited by Pygar, 20 June 2014 - 07:57 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Reptilizer, on 20 June 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

You are playing LRMs rambo style. No doubt you excel in that. But to conclude from there that it is no great issue for all the other ones that actually did use spotters is plain wrong.

Drop your UAV/NARC: You have to be near to do this. Wasting a potential range advantage of your LRMs. Also, you never carried NARC on your C1 i bet and even on a C4 it is somewhat debatable if the loss of firepower rectifies this.

Evolve, adjust, adapt all to become solo LRM rambos? Why? Why throw away a tactical element of the game without any need?

Do not get me wrong, i also play rambo in my C1. TAGing my own targets and stuff and it is fun and i kill stuff. But it is a very mediocre mech for its weight and if my TAGs do not benefit another few LRMs on the team, my team would actually be far better off with me being in my Jager...

If I'm getting this right, you're mad at Varik, me, and others like us that LRM brawl while you bemoan the module because it prevents you from sitting as far back as possible and lobbing LRMs in on targets that you mostly can't see? Things will shake out over time but this is the game in which we play. Mass LRMs firing at targets that cannot be seen all with impunity is an issue. It doesn't hurt the smart LRMer but rather it hurts the non-thinking LRMer that isn't taking into account distance to target and distance to cover for the target or those firing via an undependable spotter/brawler.

I'm not saying that this module didn't make things more difficult. But, it doesn't make it impossible. Would you waste heat and AC ammo to fire on a Locust that was going 170kph at almost 2000m away? For the bulk of people, they wouldn't because it is slim odds and both heat and ammo counts are precious resources. So, why try to put LRMs on a target that you can't see or that is standing near/almost to cover? This is what I really don't get.

[dwwolf]

Im against the module in its current form. Something that blocks a core mechanic for free ( except iskies ) is OP. If it had the same power as the module that increases decay time ( or slightly stronger ) then it would be balanced.

[Wolfways]

Imo there shouldn't even be an advanced target decay module. With how difficult it is to hit a target due to terrain and an incredibly slow missile speed LRM's should work as if they had advanced target decay as standard.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

If LRMs are overpowered, how come literally no one uses them at competitive level? And we are talking about very well organized teams of 12, so supposedly the best environment for LRM action.

If LRMs are overpowered, how come literally no one uses them at competitive level?

[Aresye]

LRMs...

They suck to use.
They suck to face.

I don't think there could be a more compelling reason to do a complete overhaul.

[Triskelion]

RampancyTW, on 18 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Because it really sucks for one the one dude that dies horribly with no recourse, and depending on how the push goes another one or two get nuked in a similar fashion?

This would be perfectly fine in an RTS-type situation but because there are individual players in each mech it's REALLY not fun to play against.

This is honestly my issue with LRMs. They are game-balance wise not in a horrific place right now, which is why we have some people yelling for buffs and some people yelling for nerfs, but the biggest problem is the lack of counterplay and extreme irritation you have to deal with regarding them. If you're NARCed in an assault, you're basically dead unless you're behind serious cover, underground, or have several AMS kit foxes next to you. If you're in a light, you're going to get popped before you can react. This kind of gameplay is boring and frustrating.

Plus, people will only push LRMs if you've dropped as a full 4, and only if you're decently good players, and only if you have brawlers. You will never see somebody drop cover to push LRMs in a random lance, especially because undefended LRMs are impossible to come across. Even the dumbest LRM-boat user is going to sit behind poptarts or PPC/Gauss mechs.

Aresye, on 21 June 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

LRMs...

They suck to use.
They suck to face.

I don't think there could be a more compelling reason to do a complete overhaul.

precisely.

There needs to be a way to increase the skillcap of LRMs while retaining high damage potential. It's not an issue of game balance, it's an issue of whether or not you like having some players sit behind cover mashing R and clicking incessantly, or whether you want people to actually play the game. I'm not going to say I know how to fix the problem, because it's a complicated issue, but it does need a rework (even if it's not lore-friendly. We need balance in front of lore for this game to work correctly).


There are also some issues with bugs that need to be addressed. Yesterday, a hunchback ran into our team and died, but he glitched out and was still able to sight for the enemy team. The result was around 2 minutes of everyone getting LRMed, and then the game was over. That's pretty decent proof of what they can do when they have vision, which is probably why radar deprivation was thrown in in the first place, even though it's behind a significant grindwall, and was implemented without proper counters or before the LRMs were looked at seriously.

Edited by Triskelion, 21 June 2014 - 02:17 AM.

[Triskelion]

Trauglodyte, on 20 June 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

If I'm getting this right, you're mad at Varik, me, and others like us that LRM brawl while you bemoan the module because it prevents you from sitting as far back as possible and lobbing LRMs in on targets that you mostly can't see? Things will shake out over time but this is the game in which we play. Mass LRMs firing at targets that cannot be seen all with impunity is an issue. It doesn't hurt the smart LRMer but rather it hurts the non-thinking LRMer that isn't taking into account distance to target and distance to cover for the target or those firing via an undependable spotter/brawler.

I'm not saying that this module didn't make things more difficult. But, it doesn't make it impossible. Would you waste heat and AC ammo to fire on a Locust that was going 170kph at almost 2000m away? For the bulk of people, they wouldn't because it is slim odds and both heat and ammo counts are precious resources. So, why try to put LRMs on a target that you can't see or that is standing near/almost to cover? This is what I really don't get.

I like this point too. I was just going to mention that boats were the primary issue, and there really isn't a problem with throwing LRMs on something for long-range fire support (as they really should be intended to be used).

As the most minor suggestion, perhaps a change to the total number of LRMs that can be fired should be looked at, like they did with Gausses? I think most people would like to see an end to LRM40+ builds (not necessarily the 40s themselves, but things that start getting excessive). Yesterday I saw a stalker that rolled into a jenner and had only a single medium laser to use in a fight. Instead of dealing with the jenner, he just turned away and kept spamming, being perfectly fine with being shot in the back. That's the kind of thing that should be prevented.

[Sharknoms]

In my Opinion Radar Dep. is absolutly needed.
More than once I got hit by full LRM-Salvos even when I took cover behind a Building or hill
because due Target decay the missiles curved perfectly around the building or hill.

[Wolfways]

Triskelion, on 21 June 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

They are game-balance wise not in a horrific place right now, which is why we have some people yelling for buffs and some people yelling for nerfs,

Actually i think those wanting a nerf are complaining about indirect-fire from every LRM on the enemy team, while those wanting buffs are because LRM's are really bad for direct-fire, which just puts LRM's in an incredibly bad place right now.

Imo they are maybe only OP when boated (which is forced by the amount of countermeasures), but are hugely UP when used direct.

[Triskelion]

Wolfways, on 21 June 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Actually i think those wanting a nerf are complaining about indirect-fire from every LRM on the enemy team, while those wanting buffs are because LRM's are really bad for direct-fire, which just puts LRM's in an incredibly bad place right now.

Imo they are maybe only OP when boated (which is forced by the amount of countermeasures), but are hugely UP when used direct.

I definitely agree with that, I didn't bother differentiating since I've pretty much only seen boats in the games I've played.

Iguana Iguana, on 21 June 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

In my Opinion Radar Dep. is absolutly needed.
More than once I got hit by full LRM-Salvos even when I took cover behind a Building or hill
because due Target decay the missiles curved perfectly around the building or hill.

It's certainly needed to prevent boating, which is pretty much all you're going to get in pubs (and the occasional extra part on an atlas/dire wolf). The funny thing is that it really hasn't seemed to reduce the amount of time I get shot, since NARCs and TAGs are much more popular now (which is good). I ran a team with a few friends that was a single kitfox with a NARC and two timber wolves with whatever they could pack on for LRMs (and I rolled around in a dire whale, because I'm masochistic). The end result was continuous wins, only because people had already gotten so used to using radar deprivation that they no longer cared about tall cover.

Edited by Triskelion, 21 June 2014 - 02:32 AM.

[Wolfways]

Iguana Iguana, on 21 June 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

In my Opinion Radar Dep. is absolutly needed.
More than once I got hit by full LRM-Salvos even when I took cover behind a Building or hill
because due Target decay the missiles curved perfectly around the building or hill.

That has nothing to do with Advanced Target Decay. It's a skilled LRM user breaking lock then reacquiring it after it moves past cover. Either that or you weren't actually in cover.
Even with ATD missiles still home directly in on the target. They don't fly around things.

[Sharknoms]

Wolfways, on 21 June 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

That has nothing to do with Advanced Target Decay. It's a skilled LRM user breaking lock then reacquiring it after it moves past cover. Either that or you weren't actually in cover.
Even with ATD missiles still home directly in on the target. They don't fly around things.

As I said Target Decay negates cover.

[Wolfways]

Iguana Iguana, on 21 June 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

As I said Target Decay negates cover.

lol sorry. I thought you were talking about the ATD module.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Iguana Iguana, on 21 June 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

As I said Target Decay negates cover.

No, Target Decay negate soft cover. Hard cover blocks missiles, lock or not.