46 replies to this topic

[Dascyllus]

I absolutely love the design philosophy around how the clan weapon systems were balanced; the new clan weapons tend to have higher maximum damage, and do it more efficiently, but it's spread out over a longer period of time, and is (critically) much harder to front load. Hats off to Paul!

That said, I think the medium lasers might need a little tweaking. Since medium lasers are a bread and butter weapon for a lot of builds, this seems like an important issue. Anyway, my take is that the the clan er medium laser is hands down better than the IS version, while the clan pulse laser is more or less unusable.

There are certainly other questions to consider when making a comparison, but probably the most important given the design philosophy above is how the two versions of the weapon spread their damage out over time. One way to do that is to calculate the damage done per tenth of a second on target. So, a little quick math:

IS medium laser:
5 damage over 1.0 seconds = .5 dmg/.1 seconds.

IS medium pulse laser:
6 damage over .6 seconds = 1.0 dmg/.1 seconds.

Clan ER Medium laser:
7 damage over 1.3 seconds = .53 dmg/.1 seconds.
7 damage over 1.1 seconds = .63 dmg/.1 seconds.

A couple of things jump out here:
1) There's never a case where the Clan ER Medium Laser is not hands down superior to the IS version. Instead of the damage being more spread out (lower per unit of time), it's actually slightly higher. And still has a significantly higher damage potential, dramatically better range, and fairly similar heat per dmg and heat per time.

2) The clan pulse laser is just awful. In the IS version, the medium pulse laser does double the damage per tenth of a second for double the weight, and presents a meaningful trade off: double the weight and a shorter range for the ability to much more reliably focus damage in a single facing. The clan version has ... almost no benefits, but has similar trade offs.

In any case, at the risk of being unpopular, it seems like the duration of the Clan ER Medium laser should be moved up slightly. A change to 1.5 or even 1.6 seconds would move the damage to .46 or .43 dmg per tenth of a second. That would be slightly worse than the IS version, but with significantly higher max damage for the similar weight and heat.

I'm not sure about the clan pulse lasers. Maybe they're bad on purpose? Again, if the idea is prevent clan mechs from being able front load their damage, making pulse lasers a poor choice doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. That said, something like a duration of .9 seconds (or .77 dmg/tenth of a second) would bring them closer (but not quite) into line with the trade offs involved with the IS weapon. As is, it's hard to imagine a case where the clan pulse lasers would ever get used.

TLDR: The Clan ER Medium laser is probably slightly better than it should be, while the clan pulse laser is categorically a poor choice given the current tuning.

[Maverick27]

I actually think they're pretty well balanced. As you said, even with the longer duration, the CERML is slightly more powerful, but remember it's also hotter. This 5 v 4 heat doesn't matter when only using 1 or 2 but it sure matters when boating or even using 4.

I agree with the CMPL though, the duration is far too long, what's the point?

[Bigbacon]

i will add, the longer durations on the clan lasers make a difference in both directions which makes it pretty balanced, you either have to hold on target longer, keep yourself in harms way longer, and I often find myself moving behind an object before the duration is up and losing precious damage potential, something I wasn't really seeing with the IS weapons.

[Bromineberry]

I personally would choose the clan ML over the IS version without heasitation...and I would choose the clan ML over the IS LL in most cases...The CERML simply makes a brawler MUCH more viable, because of the range update. I love my AC20 Hunchback, but i often find myself in bad spots, because I don't have the range I need. Especialyl since the AC20 has been nerved when it comes to the max range. I would LOVE to have the CERML simply because of the ISLL range!

Edited by Bromineberry, 18 June 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I for one hate all the direct fire weapons of the clans (well except the C-Gauss). They are supposed to be be brawling weapons, but IS weapons brawl better as well. IS weapons have much higher Pin-point Front Loaded damage. So they kill clan mechs before the clan mechs can get there "Damage over time". Plus the heat on clan weapons forces them to exit brawls faster as well.

The only blawler timberwolf I have been able to get working right is a Dual C-Gauss. (and thats very counter-productive). other C weapons, force you to stay on your target, giving you less time to shield. By being exposed for such long durations, I get cored very often above 80% HP. So in order to become an effective brawler, I had to either just sacrifice half my damage by shielding before the duration of my weapons elapsed or switch to Dual C-Gauss. Since I dont like waisting beam damage or autocannon bullets, I just made a full switch to C-Gauss.

Sure, If I dont get shot at, and I get the full Duration of my Lasers, I can output high yields of damage, but that is rarelly the case during a brawl. If possible, I would like IS Autocannons, IS PPCs, and IS lasers. Same tonage, same range, heck i'll even pay more crit slots for them. The other day, I bought a C-AC/20 thinking it was a clan version of the IS AC/20. Nope... more like a chain fire set of AC/5s with slow bullets. Heck, I dont care, I'll even take a small range loss from the IS versions. if that means I could equip them on my Timber Wolf. I dont even understand why arms dont work with Balistics and ppcs...

Heck, I would pay cash-money to have an inner sphere mech that visually looks like a timberwolf (and even reads as a timberwolf when being targeted), but for all in game purposes is an inner sphere heavy mech. 3 slot Double Heat sinks, 14 slot endo steel, 14 slot Ferro-Fibrous, 3 slot side torse XLs...

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Well, since the CERML and the CMPL do the same damage for the same heat over almost the same range, and in a slightly shorter amount of time... I find myself using the CMPL over the CERML if I have that extra ton to play with.

I don't mind the lower DPS, though, as the maximum is higher. It's one of those high-risk, high-reward things. There seems to be a higher skill minimum necessary to use Clan equipment well compared to IS kit. (*dons flame-proof suit*)

[Dascyllus]

Bigbacon, on 18 June 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

i will add, the longer durations on the clan lasers make a difference in both directions which makes it pretty balanced, you either have to hold on target longer, keep yourself in harms way longer, and I often find myself moving behind an object before the duration is up and losing precious damage potential, something I wasn't really seeing with the IS weapons.

This was exactly my point: that's how it should work, but if you look at the math, it doesn't. If you leave a Clan ER Medium laser and an IS medium laser on a target for .5 seconds, the CLAN laser will do slightly more damage.

As for the heat being a balancing factor, the heat per damage is very similar between the two. It's a fair point that having higher heat when you're boating the things makes a big difference, but since it's more or less on par per point of damage, I'm not sure I'd call it a significant drawback.

[RobotJoxKungFu]

I want Clan, but gotta still have love for the IS

[Dragon Kool Aid]

^

[Phlinger]

IMO the Clan ER Medium laser is very important, and even more important that is stays exactly how it is now. Clan mechs cannot alter engines or Endo/Ferro hardpoints. Tonnage is scarce on these mechs, well, except on the Daishi, but have you tried boating Mediums on that thing? Good luck.

IS mechs can alter every aspect minus hardpoints and the variations of those Chassis has alternative hardpoint locations, Win/Win. Clan mechs lack the total freedom of customization that IS mechs have and require lighter weapons to make them feasible.

If I want to throw a fast engine in a Griffin or Victor and boat weapons, I can. Clan? Can't do it. If I want to slap 2 AC/20's on a Jagermech, I can do it, with some engine adjustment I can even add more weapons to it. Nothing short of a Warhawk or Dire Wolf on the clan side can mount 2 AC/20's and even then, they aren't pinpoint.

The Clan lasers are, quite literally, their bread and butter. If they tweak the ERSmall, ERMedium and ERLarge to fit more in line with IS lasers, I want the ability to add Endo to my Summoner and alter the JJ's on it, it's that simple. I am forced to use a build that a fricking Blackjack uses at 70 tons if I want to brawl, or a Griffin, or a Shadowhawk. I want the ability to mount Cataphract size loadouts on it, but I know that will never happen.

The Clan lasers are balanced, and the limited space the Clans have to customize is why.

[Mad Ox]

If your going to compare you also need to keep in mind Range. The better range clan lasers have is a huge boost.

Heck just using MPL as example.

IS 180 then 360 vs Clan 400 then 800.... full damage 40 meters past IS Extreme range very limited damage, So from 360-800 clan MPL can hurt IS mech while taking nothing in return.

[Phlinger]

No, people need to realize that there are Pro's and Con's to both sides of the coin here. The way the weapons are now is right. The grass is greener on the other side, I know right?

Yes, Clan has better range, but their beams burn longer and generate more heat. Inner Sphere has less range, less damage but shorter beam times, hence a quicker delivery system when those beams do get into range, and less heat, with a customizable heat system. Clan mechs do not have that, they start with an engine and a base amount of HS's, they can only add, which takes away vital space and tonnage that they lack.

It's not a simple as

7 damage, 450 range, 5 heat
vs.
5 damage 270 range 4 heat

It isn't that simple. There are SO MANY other factors to consider in this equation. People on the forums see a figure and go ballistic until they get it nerfed then and only then, do they play with it and decide oh, hey, it was much better the other way.

Stop crying for nerfs!

[1453 R]

A good breakdown, but you're forgetting one thing I think may end up being important. Even if you have slightly higher damage-per-tic on the Clan lasers, their total cycle time is higher than an IS laser due to the longer burn time. Thusly they lose more total DPS if they can't keep their beam on target.

ISML: 1s burn time, 3s cycle time. 4s = 5 damage, if all damage is delivered
CERML: 1.3s burn time, 3s cycle time. 4.3s = 7 damage, if all damage is delivered

You get to pay that extra .3s burn time on a Clan laser whether or not you can hold it on target - if you're only delivering a few tics of damage sweeping beams across a target outmaneuvering you, you get to wait just that little bit longer before trying again.

I doubt it's a crucial difference, but it's a factor that should be considered when discussing balancing for Clan beams, methinks.

That said, yeah. Clan pulsebeams make me sad T_T

Edited by 1453 R, 20 June 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[ColdBlueOne]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 18 June 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

I for one hate all the direct fire weapons of the clans (well except the C-Gauss). They are supposed to be be brawling weapons, but IS weapons brawl better as well. IS weapons have much higher Pin-point Front Loaded damage. So they kill clan mechs before the clan mechs can get there "Damage over time". Plus the heat on clan weapons forces them to exit brawls faster as well.

The only blawler timberwolf I have been able to get working right is a Dual C-Gauss. (and thats very counter-productive). other C weapons, force you to stay on your target, giving you less time to shield. By being exposed for such long durations, I get cored very often above 80% HP. So in order to become an effective brawler, I had to either just sacrifice half my damage by shielding before the duration of my weapons elapsed or switch to Dual C-Gauss. Since I dont like waisting beam damage or autocannon bullets, I just made a full switch to C-Gauss.

Sure, If I dont get shot at, and I get the full Duration of my Lasers, I can output high yields of damage, but that is rarelly the case during a brawl. If possible, I would like IS Autocannons, IS PPCs, and IS lasers. Same tonage, same range, heck i'll even pay more crit slots for them. The other day, I bought a C-AC/20 thinking it was a clan version of the IS AC/20. Nope... more like a chain fire set of AC/5s with slow bullets. Heck, I dont care, I'll even take a small range loss from the IS versions. if that means I could equip them on my Timber Wolf. I dont even understand why arms dont work with Balistics and ppcs...

Heck, I would pay cash-money to have an inner sphere mech that visually looks like a timberwolf (and even reads as a timberwolf when being targeted), but for all in game purposes is an inner sphere heavy mech. 3 slot Double Heat sinks, 14 slot endo steel, 14 slot Ferro-Fibrous, 3 slot side torse XLs...

Sounds like you're not protecting your core very well if you're getting cored above 80%. Try twisting and attacking from the side more.

[Furniture]

ColdBlueOne, on 28 June 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Sounds like you're not protecting your core very well if you're getting cored above 80%. Try twisting and attacking from the side more.

He's saying that the burst fire/longer duration damage over time Clan weapons force him to stay facing his target to deal damage, and thats why he takes more damage to his CT. It's not that he doesn't know that torso twisting will help him, its that he doesn't have a choice if he wants to get his damage out there. Hence why he's saying that he prefers the Gauss Rifles more than Clan autocannons since the Guass damage is frontloaded.

He's right to a certain degree. Could you imagine having a Hunchback 4G with an AC/20 that fired a 5 round burst instead of a single shell? You'd lose your hunch a hell of a lot more frequently then it is with the single shot frontloaded AC/20 that we currently have where you can just shoot and immediately twist.

[storm0545]

I'm by no means a great player but i consider myself in between average to slightly above average in play. The problem I'm seeing and so are many others is that Clan mechs becuase of the lore that they were insanely strong weapon system for weapon system compared to the IS the devs had to bake in these nerfs designed around our FPS mechwarrior game as it currently is. The backlash to this design change of all clan weapon systems "WHILE" the devs elected to stick to lore about not being able to strip engines/endo/FF on all Cmechs has put Clan pilots in a bad position.

While our weapons might be stronger on paper in actual play it doesn't amount to much with how everything so far is designed between the IS and Clans. If IS auto cannons had the same burst fire mechanic as clans did then I could see this being a different point of contention but in the current state of the game an AC40 Jeager/K2/w.e is going to be a much more beneficial drop slot compared to any of the current clan mechs of the same class. As it seems the Timberwolf is the only exception to all rules as it somehow manages to do just fine where all other clan mechs fail.

As for weapon balancing I can already forsee once the devs get the Clan LBX changed to where it can fire alternate ammo slugs all clan mech builds capable of mounting any Ballistics will gravitate to that as it will give the clans an equal to the amount of FLD Inner sphere mechs can currently produce compared to most clan mech builds.

[Zordicron]

This type of comparison is too simplistic to be of value, and is misleading to boot.
You must consider the entire clan weapons package, along with how the clan mechs are built when considering how ERML work. So far, what I have experienced, is clan mechs in general are either out of tonnage or out of crit space when trying to make a heat neutral loadout that still has significant punch to it. In order to run a high output loadout, you run very, very hot. it has it's rewards, but it takes more skill.

I find in general, the clan mechs show the solid players from the almost average(not as good) players as the weapons are more difficult to do full dmg with(burst fire, longer durations, LRM's that scatter and eat AMS so bad) and are generally not sustainable for a close range brawl. hence, the longer range is basically a requirement to have time to maneuver and find cover, flank, etc as when IS mechs get into that magic SRM/AC20 range, you can not sustain enough firepower(a select few loadouts can, bulk of them not) to win a brawl. premades running meta TBR aside, when 4 guys on TS are all shooting one mech with 40 point FLD alphas, you dont need sustainability. For the rest of it, IS simply out brawls clan in that short game.


This itself ties into the skill gap, if you have to shoot from much farther away, you have to have better aim and reaction time. it becomes easier to spread out that laser dmg. It becomes easier to have those burst fire AC's hit 2 or 3 mech sections at long range. THIS IS ALSO VERY GOOD, and I wish IS mechs had gotten this design a long time ago(the ballistics) however it would remove it as a balance tool for clan tech too then.

Other thoughts: traditional loadouts like ML boats are simply not the same for clans. Most clan mechs, you put 6 ERML on it, you will have a hard time with heat unless its your full loadout and you stuff DHS in( I am talking smaller mechs, the heavy and up tend to have at least one ballistic mounted)

In short, the way to counter clans is to NOT CAMP. unfortunatly, herding up and camping at some ridge point or corner on canyon or alpine etc has been the norm to counter sniper fire for like over a year now. CLAN MECHS DEFY THE META< YOU NEED TO FLANK AND MOVE. The range is only an advantage if you sit in one spot and let the clan mech move to find a shot at you at their optimal range. This was true before, but not nearly as much so as it is now. The team that wins now is the team that moves, reacts to the enemy position and moves into the advantageous position faster. Missile boats just get shot in the face by some clan ERLL if they camp out, meta IS snipers can be out dmg'd by clan weapons at range, at ranges even the poptart IS mechs cant return fire effectively at.

In short, picking out one weapon and looking at it in a vacuum is really short changing what the dev team accomplished here, and it is certainly way too early to call for nerfs or buffs etc when it comes to weapon systems.

[storm0545]

Until the developers force everyone to run stock configurations of mechs all of these issues of balance are moot points as everyone will just keep switching to the flavor of the month weapon wise until we're all shooting marshmellows or god knows what else.

This is my opinion but I feel a possible way to fix a lot of these problems (IS meta/poptarting) would be with community warfare. How one might ask would be as follows.

1. Limit all house/clan/merc units to stock configurations of any mech while fighting in community warfare mode.
2. Implement a separate mechbay lineup for community warfare and normal play.
3. As your loyalty points for your respective faction builds bake in certain rewards that represent your standing.
3a. EX at X loyalty the house allows you full access to engineering bays which allow you to customize within reason. (also maybe tack on a estimated waiting time on how long it would be to retrofit your mech etc)

Edited by storm0545, 01 July 2014 - 07:18 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Nahh the lasers are beautifully balanced. When id rive my IS mechs after drivng clan mechs its almost like firing an autocannon how short the duration is by comparison.....

Ive said it before and Ill say it again. firing clan lasers is like shooting THESE...

[ToxinTractor]

Ronyn, on 20 June 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

No, people need to realize that there are Pro's and Con's to both sides of the coin here. The way the weapons are now is right. The grass is greener on the other side, I know right?

Yes, Clan has better range, but their beams burn longer and generate more heat. Inner Sphere has less range, less damage but shorter beam times, hence a quicker delivery system when those beams do get into range, and less heat, with a customizable heat system. Clan mechs do not have that, they start with an engine and a base amount of HS's, they can only add, which takes away vital space and tonnage that they lack.

It's not a simple as

7 damage, 450 range, 5 heat
vs.
5 damage 270 range 4 heat

It isn't that simple. There are SO MANY other factors to consider in this equation. People on the forums see a figure and go ballistic until they get it nerfed then and only then, do they play with it and decide oh, hey, it was much better the other way.

Stop crying for nerfs!

This right here... not to mention some clan mechs have quirks which also affect this. And im betting we will see more quirks in the future as they tweak clans. Hell IS mechs still need proper quirks (Or atleast get them to display correctly in the quirks bar in mech lab.)