335 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

Merchant, on 22 June 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

What if some group wants to represent a second line garrison unit for the Clans?
These usually do not use OmniMechs and the known second line clan Mechs are not in game, I do not even think they would be since their # of variants does not meet standards of 3+ by lore.
Why not allow Clanners to use IS Mechs for this same as how IS will eventually be able to use Clan equipment?

That would requiring blending the IS type tech with the Clan tech. Something I have no doubt they will do eventually, but not yet. It isn't time yet.

Hunchback IIC anyone?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/IIC

[Why Run]

There aren't enough people in this game to facilitate more arbitrary limits on chassis use. 3/3/3/3 provided this. To all of you who think some how 12v12 is/clan will work, you're kidding yourselves. They will try it, and it will fail, and they will roll it back and it'll be open warfare. Get over it.

[Clideb50]

Imo, it's easy to justify seeing 'mechs where you normally wouldn't see them. If one side captures a 'mech, they're not going to just throw it away. Clans have that zero waste policy, and the IS aren't going to give up a clan 'mech if they capture one.

[Cimarb]

What it comes back to is we need some sort of "realistic" restrictions on faction equipment, focused on planetary and factory control, and a Salvage + Repair/Rearm system.

That is going to be the only way to make both sides happy as well as make CW worth playing.

[Fuzzbox]

Good news Paul, but when will this happen?

Right now it's just a bad (shitshow) show of any 'Mech vs any 'Mech. Game has never been this boring.
I assume you are aiming for 2015, so time for a break?

Please clarify on this?

Edited by Fuzzbox, 22 June 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[heimdelight]

I have a huge issue with not being able to play as Inner Sphere and Clan 'Mechs as a Mercenary.

Mercenaries do whatever it takes to win. If I like a Clan 'Mech and I headshot it or something, why on Earth would I not salvage it? For example, in public matchmaking, you chose not to allow strict tonnage restrictions because some friends, due to the mechs theyve acquired, would not be allowed to play with each other.

If this is the direction you wanted to take for Community Warfare, you should have had a much more aggressive approach to balancing, and should have made factions worth something from the beginning.

For example: You are telling me, as a mercenary, that many of the 101 'Mechs I own cannot be run for Community Warfare? Isn't this supposed to be the big metagame? I've been playing countless hours for a year and a half now, and it has resulted in my possesion of numerous 'Mechs made for numerous roles on the battlefield. This is the end-game grind. To own everything and prepared for anything in Community Warfare. My heart was set on being a Mercenary so I could be the best and be offered contracts for my services. Contracts with high amounts of money and a lot at stake, I wanted to take place in the most important part of Community Warfare because those parts required the best in the game.

That's the way a proper grind is supposed to work with a large influence from individual skill and possessions owned in the MWO universe. I didn't play all this time, accumulate all these cbills, and prepare all my 'Mechs for nothing. If you are restricting 'Mechs based on faction without option to acquire over time, you will run into massive imbalance issues.

[Cimarb]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I have a huge issue with not being able to play as Inner Sphere and Clan 'Mechs as a Mercenary.

Mercenaries do whatever it takes to win. If I like a Clan 'Mech and I headshot it or something, why on Earth would I not salvage it?

That's the way a proper grind is supposed to work with a large influence from individual skill and possessions owned in the MWO universe. I didn't play all this time, accumulate all these cbills, and prepare all my 'Mechs for nothing. If you are restricting 'Mechs based on faction without option to acquire over time, you will run into massive imbalance issues.

Heim, what do you think about:

Cimarb, on 21 June 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Totally in favor of the salvage system, though I think it should be a chance by component ("gotta collect em all" to use - maybe by omnipod, or all the way down to by item). Make us work for it. In fact, make it be required that the component has to be INTACT at the end of the match to get! (makes taking out legs instead of torsos important, for instance).

So much cool stuff they could do with this...

?

[Duncan Aravain]

Many of the complaints by Clan Pack purchasers reminds me of why we have to have warning labels on hairdryers to not be used in bathtubs.

[heimdelight]

Cimarb, on 22 June 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Heim, what do you think about:



?

I think being able to salvage components or items until mercenaries or other factions can build a complete Clan 'Mech would be the perfect way to do it. Anything else is restriction and will cause massive imbalance between factions, especially without the overall game being balanced. This doesn't only go for Clan 'Mechs, but other faction specific 'Mechs/weapons as well. Maybe there is a Kurita-Made Medium Laser that has different qualities than the Steiner one (or something like that). As a Steiner, in order to get the Kurita, you'd have to take a Kurita 'Mech with a Kurita ML down and salvage it.

Edited by heimdelight, 22 June 2014 - 11:04 AM.

[Cimarb]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I think being able to salvage components or items until mercenaries or other factions can build a complete Clan 'Mech would be the perfect way to do it. Anything else is restriction and will cause massive imbalance between factions, especially without the overall game being balanced. This doesn't only go for Clan 'Mechs, but other faction specific 'Mechs/weapons as well. Maybe there is a Kurita-Made Medium Laser that has different qualities than the Steiner one (or something like that). As a Steiner, in order to get the Kurita, you'd have to take a Kurita 'Mech with a Kurita ML down and salvage it.

I totally agree. Maybe variants like this?

Cimarb, on 16 June 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Here are some examples for possible AC20 variants:

185mm ChemJet AC/20 - damage 24 - cooldown 8.00 - DP5S 15.0
Pontiac 100 AC/20 - damage 0.2 - cooldown 0.50 - DP5S 20.0
Imperator Zeta-A - damage 13 - cooldown 3.6 - DP5S 18.0

On top of this, to give some real variety, you could also have burst-fire versions like the Clans have, such as:

Kali Yama Big Bore AC/20 - damage 4.0/tick - 1.0 second burst with 4 ticks - cooldown 4.0 - DP5S 16.0
Armstrong Requiem AC/20 - damage 1.0/tick - 4.0 second burst with 20 ticks - cooldown 1.0 - DP5S 20.0

As a pillar in the competitive community (and I'm not just flattering you - I rooted against you guys in the competition - but you are extremely good at what you do), I would love to get your input on the viability of these manufacturer variant ideas.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Why Run, on 22 June 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

There aren't enough people in this game to facilitate more arbitrary limits on chassis use. 3/3/3/3 provided this. To all of you who think some how 12v12 is/clan will work, you're kidding yourselves. They will try it, and it will fail, and they will roll it back and it'll be open warfare. Get over it.

About 90% of my guild of about 120 pilots have been waiting for CW before they get active in MWO again. A lot of people have been off playing other games until meaning is put to the endless series of death matches we now have. There will be a larger population once CW arrives, if CW delivers the roleplaying atmosphere to strategic warfare that everyone familiar with community-run leagues is expecting.

To me, this is what they are saying...there is an outlet for everyone:

Public Queue - outlet for everyone to bring what they want in an arena-style game to grind experience, C-bills, or just have some casual fun in a group or solo, with 3/3/3/3 being the only restriction

Private Queue - outlet for the competitive community to customize matches against each other in bracket tournaments, or for friends just wanting to have fun together fighting or experimenting with builds

Faction Queue - outlet for the roleplaying community who want to immerse themselves in a strategy-based planetary conquest game based on the BT universe, with the restrictions established by PGI and designed to enhance the immersive experience

Edited by Sarsaparilla Kid, 22 June 2014 - 01:20 PM.

[TamerSA]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 22 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

To me, this is what they are saying...there is an outlet for everyone:

Public Queue - outlet for everyone to bring what they want in an arena-style game to grind experience, C-bills, or just have some casual fun in a group or solo, with 3/3/3/3 being the only restriction

Private Queue - outlet for the competitive community to customize matches against each other in bracket tournaments, or for friends just wanting to have fun together fighting or experimenting with builds

Faction Queue - outlet for the roleplaying community who want to immerse themselves in a strategy-based planetary conquest game based on the BT universe, with the restrictions established by PGI and designed to enhance the immersive experience

I personally don't have a problem with this approach, should it be done this way.

Also, splitting up Clan vs IS is also not a problem to me. Sure, I love both my Clan and IS mechs... but I think it would put some meaning behind the CW if you could have that divide. And splitting it into a CW/Faction queue would resolve the problem of making you pick one. If you wanted to be able to swap around between IS and Clans at a whim then what is the point of CW?

I also think that mercs or lone wolves should be allowed access to both Clan and IS mechs. A simple way (off the top of my head) to balance this is to make it a perk of choosing merc/LW. In other words, simply give factions perks over mercs/LW that would make the choice harder.

IMO if you give factions a good perk to match the variety of mech choices on mercs, only fence cases will be drawn to mercs. These players will most likely anyway be people who do not know or care for the battletech lore and factions.

[Cimarb]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 22 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

About 90% of my guild of about 120 pilots have been waiting for CW before they get active in MWO again. A lot of people have been off playing other games until meaning is put to the endless series of death matches we now have. There will be a larger population once CW arrives, if CW delivers the roleplaying atmosphere to strategic warfare that everyone familiar with community-run leagues is expecting.

To me, this is what they are saying...there is an outlet for everyone:

Public Queue - outlet for everyone to bring what they want in an arena-style game to grind experience, C-bills, or just have some casual fun in a group or solo, with 3/3/3/3 being the only restriction

Private Queue - outlet for the competitive community to customize matches against each other in bracket tournaments, or for friends just wanting to have fun together fighting or experimenting with builds

Faction Queue - outlet for the roleplaying community who want to immerse themselves in a strategy-based planetary conquest game based on the BT universe, with the restrictions established by PGI and designed to enhance the immersive experience

My impression is the same. I am talking about how CW (Faction queue) will be implemented, as a hard line between Clans and IS is a horrible way to do it. Instead, it should be a line drawn between EVERY faction, and the lines should be as malleable as the borders. This means that, if my unit wants to "unlock" the Dragon, but is a Marik unit, we have three ways to do so:

1. Pay MC through the "Black Market". This would mean an instant unlock, but repair/rearm would also cost MC until one of the following other methods was accomplished.
2. Gotta Collect Em All! This is the Pokemon approach, where you earn salvage for defeating particular mechs in particular ways. This is a random dispersal, much like "loot" in other games, and adds that component to your inventory. While IS mechs don't use Omnipods, the same method can be used by section, but only for the unlock. Once you collect all 8 sections, the mech chassis is unlocked in stock form, minus equipment. This can be tracked just like mech skills, but with a paper doll showing which parts are (un)locked. You are only eligible to unlock a component that meets the following criteria:
2a. Must win match.
2b. Component must not be destroyed.
3. Hold the planet the mech/component is manufactured on for a minimum of (7) days.

Repair/rearm. This is pivotal to a working CW. Making it dependent on planetary control or through salvage makes every fight and planet important. You can avoid this restriction through the use of MC, giving a method for PGI to make money through micro transactions as well as providing a method for every player to get any mech they desire if they are willing to pay for it. While MC purchases are currently available already, extending the MC store to include repair/rearm, as well as individual component purchase, also gives additional money flow opportunities without being "pay2win".

Salvage, on the other hand, allows those that do not have real money funds available to support the game through lots and lots of matches and a semi-random loot process. It is semi-random because you must disable the mech somehow to earn the salvage (conquest/assault wins would only get salvage off of mechs that were disabled before the end of match, for example), but whether you do it through a headshot, torso destruction or legging determines what salvage is possible. This makes it a mini-game, as well, as you actually have a reason for going after certain mechs in certain ways to earn a chance at the specific salvage you are trying to get.

So many possibilities with a system like this...

[Lily from animove]

Cimarb, on 22 June 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Heim, what do you think about:



?

Kinda bad, because you try to explain broken lore with broken lore.

As a mercenary You mostlikely have to give the salvage to the one hired you. Especially when its the clantech.
No 2 if your salvaged clanmech woud be destroyed, it would should be gone forever. In Lore your non clanmech is inferior, and you would probably have died anyways. if it were that easy by lore to get clantech everyone would have had them way easier and earlier, which was not the case in the Lore.

[Thorn Hallis]

Paul Inouye, on 18 June 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

A Clarification:

On a side note, I've seen the rumblings of people thinking that mixed teams of Clan and IS 'Mechs will be the norm from here on out. This is not the case. Faction (IS/Clan) combat is a big part of Community Warfare as are the skirmishes between the Houses themselves and the Clans themselves. This requires additional work to the database, player data and match making systems and will come out at a later time.

I don't see that happen. Just saying.

[Cimarb]

Lily from animove, on 23 June 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Kinda bad, because you try to explain broken lore with broken lore.

As a mercenary You mostlikely have to give the salvage to the one hired you. Especially when its the clantech.
No 2 if your salvaged clanmech woud be destroyed, it would should be gone forever. In Lore your non clanmech is inferior, and you would probably have died anyways. if it were that easy by lore to get clantech everyone would have had them way easier and earlier, which was not the case in the Lore.

You are making a lot of assumptions there. First, salvage is completely up to the contract. Especially at the onset of the Clan invasion, salvage was often for the Mercenary unit to keep. Once the contractor started seeing what was being salvaged, I'm sure that shifted, but it was still usually a percentage, not just full confiscation. If I had a mercenary unit myself, I know I would be making the contractor forfeit any and all salvage, as I know they NEED my services during the invasion and have little ground to negotiate.

Secondly, while your mech needs to be repaired and rearmed, I am all for using lore in regards to that. You can see my poll regarding that at http://mwomercs.com/...st__p__3498001. I do refer you to the fact that not a single person in lore had 50+ PERSONAL mechs sitting in their mechbay, though, so the argument is a bit shaky. I'm trying to improve the solidity of the lore, not use broken lore to break it more. (Hey, I rhymed)

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference the Modified or rebuilt IS mech's into 'C' or 'IIC' variants.

This will not happen till well into the 5 wave of the invasion, near 3050/51 or a few years within the current timeline, the Clans first need to actually capture a Planet construction Facility or Factory. They did start to move 2nd line units from Clan space to protect, garrison, defend areas and location which allowed the front line units to continue the advance.

Then there's the historical Lore reason for these Mech's to exist:

IIC BattleMechs, which are essentially new 'Mech models designed to make use of Clan technology, should not be confused with "C" BattleMechs:
Somewhat similar to the IIC concept,
- "C"-type BattleMechs are standard 'Mech designs that have been built or upgraded with advanced Clan equipment and components, but are essentially only a variant of their parent design built with better components and not an altogether new design (as opposed to a IIC 'Mech that has been redesigned from the ground up).
- Frequently, the change is limited to exchanging weapon systems for advanced Clan counterparts, without changing the chassis or other components such as the fusion engine or heat sinks.
- They are typically built by the Clans at captured Inner Sphere factories to achieve the best possible production result without having to retool the factory for an entirely different 'Mech model.

This does open up the possibility of having IS Pilots capturing Mech's that have been either 'Upgraded' or rebuilt into Clan mod's. The lore is there but it's still a way's away in the timeline.
- Most of this 'new captured or salvaged Clan Tech' would not have gone to any Pilots or units, it was sent directly to the research facilities of whatever Faction succeeded in acquiring it.
- Keep in mind that the initial skirmishes and battles that happened against the Clan's did not go well for the IS, it would not have been Clan salvage that littered the location after the Battles.

Just saying,
9erRed

[CyclonerM]

9erRed, on 23 June 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Greetings all,

Reference the Modified or rebuilt IS mech's into 'C' or 'IIC' variants.

This will not happen till well into the 5 wave of the invasion, near 3050/51 or a few years within the current timeline, the Clans first need to actually capture a Planet construction Facility or Factory. They did start to move 2nd line units from Clan space to protect, garrison, defend areas and location which allowed the front line units to continue the advance.

Then there's the historical Lore reason for these Mech's to exist:

IIC BattleMechs, which are essentially new 'Mech models designed to make use of Clan technology, should not be confused with "C" BattleMechs:
Somewhat similar to the IIC concept,
- "C"-type BattleMechs are standard 'Mech designs that have been built or upgraded with advanced Clan equipment and components, but are essentially only a variant of their parent design built with better components and not an altogether new design (as opposed to a IIC 'Mech that has been redesigned from the ground up).
- Frequently, the change is limited to exchanging weapon systems for advanced Clan counterparts, without changing the chassis or other components such as the fusion engine or heat sinks.
- They are typically built by the Clans at captured Inner Sphere factories to achieve the best possible production result without having to retool the factory for an entirely different 'Mech model.

This does open up the possibility of having IS Pilots capturing Mech's that have been either 'Upgraded' or rebuilt into Clan mod's. The lore is there but it's still a way's away in the timeline.
- Most of this 'new captured or salvaged Clan Tech' would not have gone to any Pilots or units, it was sent directly to the research facilities of whatever Faction succeeded in acquiring it.
- Keep in mind that the initial skirmishes and battles that happened against the Clan's did not go well for the IS, it would not have been Clan salvage that littered the location after the Battles.

Just saying,
9erRed

Please, no mixtech. Just these few words.

[Pyrock]

I have a feeling if you introduce a system where IS factions gain clan tech trough salvage it will make it very hard for a clan to hold a planet. Any clan held planets will constantly be attacked to farm parts. Factions at the bottom of the map will more rarely be invaded because there's no benefit but those IS factions near the clan invasion route will always be defending as the other factions cut supply lines through their space to get the clan salvage.

-Pyrock (Xtreme) VonHorn

[Cimarb]

Pyrock, on 23 June 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I have a feeling if you introduce a system where IS factions gain clan tech trough salvage it will make it very hard for a clan to hold a planet. Any clan held planets will constantly be attacked to farm parts. Factions at the bottom of the map will more rarely be invaded because there's no benefit but those IS factions near the clan invasion route will always be defending as the other factions cut supply lines through their space to get the clan salvage.

-Pyrock (Xtreme) VonHorn

So you are saying a salvage system will make the planets important? AWESOME!

I don't see a downside to this. Want to keep your Clan manufacturing plants? Better man up and defend them, then!