556 replies to this topic

[Drasari]

OP is blind or unwilling to look at the drawbacks of clan weps and Mechs. Facts and logic have no place in this thread it seems.

[IraqiWalker]

Abrahms, on 20 June 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

PGI is a scam. When they sold founder's packs, they assured players it wouldn't be pay2win.

It was not long until pay2win creeped in.

Now it is just blatant pay2win. Clan mechs, according to the game files, are indeed superior.

Additionally, if you bought MC for REAL MONEY, you still canNOT buy a clan mech. You have to let your MC rot and fork out absurd prices.

So essentially, for the next three months, MWO is indeed, VERY pay2win. Better mechs if you pay!!!

PGI is engrossed with fraud, misrepresentation, and incompetence. Fortunately for them, they only steal dollar amounts small enough (even $500 is small enough) that a lawsuit would not be worth it (and theyre in Canada).

I feel bad for new players that get stuck in this mess. Fortunately, the pay2win model is so off-putting and trial mechs are so bad that they may steer clear before wasting a penny on this mess.

Ok, seriously, go and play the game. You're complaining about clan mechs, and you clearly haven't tested them, or played much against them. The massive majority has been going with the "clan mechs are balanced" opinion. Only people saying clan mechs are op, are those that haven't actually experimented with them.

Why is it that for some reason many people think the clan mechs are balanced, if not under-powered? Where do you think it's coming from?

The game is not pay to win. If it was, I wouldn't be doing better in my Ember than I do in a Daishi. The main problem is that people haven't figured out counters for these new setups and mechs. If you think clan mechs are OP. Go ahead and try one out.

Straften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

How can someone not feel embarrassed to pay $240 to win at a video game?

I'm half tempted to give you my account so you can try out these "OP" mechs and see how powerful they are.

Straften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Not losing to IS mechs though, funny that.

Funny, I still kill clan omni mechs in my ON1-K that only has basics on it. Hell, if I'm in a light, the game is on easy mode for me against clan mechs. The problem isn't with the game. It's with people not learning how to adapt to new situations. When LRMs were buffed, plenty of people start crying and moping. In fact that whine storm is still on-going about how LRMs are OP. They're not. People just don't know how to use cover, and don't mount AMS.

It's the exact same thing here.

Atheus, on 20 June 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Yeah, this metaphor totally applies. Everyone knows it's impossible for better equipment to help you perform better.

http://youtu.be/-Vw2CrY9Igs


Whoa whoa WHOA!

You're saying that you can kill a clan mech in your IS mech??? False alarm everyone! It's balanced!

I literally did not think it was possible for an IS mech to kill a clan mech. It's embarrassing now, but I thought that clan tech meant insta-win, like a golden gun. Thanks for setting me straight. I feel better now knowing that the stuff behind the $240 paywall isn't actually any better than the stuff on this side. I guess we can all stop discussing it now.

Sarcasm, good job there.

Actually what you have been toting the last few days all over the forums has been exactly that! You've been saying how clan mechs are far superior and much better than IS mechs, and that the clan weapons are also far better, and superior to clan weapons. You've been, and still are cherry picking which points to argue and which ones not to. We tried talking mechanics, and you still chose to pick one thing and not consider the other.

I'm honestly done trying to "debate" with you. Since it's been pretty much me trying to tell you the same thing and you keep going "nuh-uh".

Abrahms, on 20 June 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

oops, smurfy must have some wrong stats then - sorry, as a paying customer I still have no acces to clan tech (MC is a second-class currency) and non-ultra also indicated more ammo as well

Smurfy is right. The ammo count is correct. It sounds like a lot more ammo. It's just that ACs fire in bursts of rounds that total up to the same damage. IS ACs fire one slug that deals the whole damage in one shot. While clan ACs fire multiple shots that total up to that number. So ammo per ton seems more.

In fact, there is only one weapon that actually has more ammo per ton. AMS. IS AMS has 1000 rounds per ton. Clan AMS has 2000 rounds per ton. However, clan mechs mostly can't mount AMS.

Atheus, on 20 June 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Oh you got him there. He misunderstood the numbers on smurfy regarding clan ammo. If he had paid $240 to play clan he would have known better.

Nah, he could have actually just asked. Or if he decided to spend money, he'd only need to pay 30 dollars fort he kit fox. Why do people keep thinking you need to pay 240$? Heck, the Kitfox is going to be released for C-Bills very soon. Seriously, stop with the over-exaggerations and hyperbole.

There are also dozens upon dozens of videos from the PTS and the now live games with clan mechs showing all of the weapons and stats. Same thing with threads detailing everything about them. You can literally find almost everything you need with just a forum search.

qki, on 20 June 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

What did you expect?

They use math to "prove" their theories. As in "paper and numbers" rather than any kind of real experience. We should probably sic em on the other group (just as elitist, and just as clueless) - the ones declaring clan mechs worthless because no FLD, break out the popcorn and start taking bets.

That would be interesting to see. 2 extreme crowds yelling at each other. Reminds me of the world cup.

Atheus, on 20 June 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Hey yeah, I'm a founder and I've never heard of torso twisting. Was this something that was just invented today as a clan countermeasure? Does it make your medium laser shoot hotter, further and longer? Does it make it so you can fire your AC/20 twice per cooldown? Can clan mechs torso twist too or just IS mechs? Does this mean that I can only beat clan if I'm using PPFLD weapons like gauss/ppc? Please tell me all about this twisting torso and how it compensates for a ~20-100% gap in weapon power.

It helps spread damage so those AC20s that fire in bursts of 5 shots, will deal at most 5 damage ALL OVER your mech, instead of 20 to one spot and end you in two salvos. Same with the lasers, you'd be able to fire, and torso twist while the clanner has to wait for his laser to burn out. So you deal more effective damage to one location compared to the clanner. It generally helps deal with all kinds of damage over time weapons, which whaddya know, clan is all about. No need for PP FLD. I use 3 streaks and a Medium laser on my COM-2D and I have no problem beating T-Wolves in it.

You should try it. It's very helpful. Also, it's been around for a while actually.

Papaspud, on 20 June 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

And your attitude is why you will be jerking yourself off while claiming ....learn to do it right. Have fun

I would recommend editing that post, and toning down the language, we're trying to have a semblance of a civil discussion here.

[Mcgral18]

Atheus, on 20 June 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Hey yeah, I'm a founder and I've never heard of torso twisting. Was this something that was just invented today as a clan countermeasure? Does it make your medium laser shoot hotter, further and longer? Does it make it so you can fire your AC/20 twice per cooldown? Can clan mechs torso twist too or just IS mechs? Does this mean that I can only beat clan if I'm using PPFLD weapons like gauss/ppc? Please tell me all about this twisting torso and how it compensates for a ~20-100% gap in weapon power.

So, why don't you tell me what happens when you state perfectly still looking at a cUAC20? You take potentially 10 rounds at 4 damage each over the span of nearly a second.
That will hurt a single component quite severely.

Now, if you twist when this happens, you'll take 4 or 8 damage on said important component, 8 on another and then 20 wasted on the arm or shield torso? And that's only if they all hit.
That sounds like a much nicer option. Also half the reason some Clan mechs are kinda subpar. The Nova doesn't have a shield arm. It has 45% of its firepower in each arm. You do not want to shield with them, but you're forced to. By comparison, the 50 ton Centurion has both shield arms and FLD with the SRMs. Similar speed can be had between the two, but the Cent has much nicer hitboxes.

Full out damage isn't the most important part of a mech. Its speed, hitboxes and also loadout are equally important. JJs are also an important consideration.

Edited by Mcgral18, 20 June 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[krash27]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

Snip

Wow I have been following this thread mostly in the shadows now.

You may need to get crayons to explain some of this stuff to people. My mind is truly blown.

I have a new theory. Premades do not group up and drop while on TS to roflstomp, it is so they can have intelligent conversations and debates with one another without having to listen to the derp with only three active brain cells sitting in a corner drooling on himself.
God how my opinions and views are changing when I open my eyes and ears.

A reasonable person would atleast listen to the other side and evaluate the information...

Edited by krash27, 20 June 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Mavairo]

krash27, on 20 June 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Wow I have been following this thread mostly in the shadows now.

You may need to get crayons to explain some of this stuff to people. My mind is truly blown.

I have a new theory. Premades do not group up and drop while on TS to roflstomp, it is so they can have intelligent conversations and debates with one another without having to listen to the derp with only three active brain cells sitting in a corner drooling on himself.
God how my opinions and views are changing when I open my eyes and ears.

A reasonable person would atleast listen to the other side and evaluate the information...

As a premade player I can pretty much tell you with dead certainty, that most conversations I have while on comms have very little to do with what's actually happening in game. Sure I'll call out where we're going, or who's primary and what's weakest but beyond that? Pft. We don't sit there and hatch some diabolic plan that will insure a 12 and 0 stomp. Most of the time we're bsing about this game or that, talking about game mechanics, how our days went etc.

That we are grouped together and guarantee to some degree that there's just even 1 less person that barely managed to install the game by themselves in the match is just a bonus.

[IraqiWalker]

krash27, on 20 June 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Wow I have been following this thread mostly in the shadows now.

You may need to get crayons to explain some of this stuff to people. My mind is truly blown.

I have a new theory. Premades do not group up and drop while on TS to roflstomp, it is so they can have intelligent conversations and debates with one another without having to listen to the derp with only three active brain cells sitting in a corner drooling on himself.
God how my opinions and views are changing when I open my eyes and ears.

A reasonable person would atleast listen to the other side and evaluate the information...

You're actually right on the money there. I may have lost my temper here and there a bit, but it honestly gets frustrating repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, to people who will not listen.

TS is much nicer and easier to deal with, since it's usually 4 or so guys, and most of you know each other to some extent. Or at the very leat part of the same corp, and have a civil debate as colleagues.

[Dr HaxZaw]

Clans are meant to be OP /end thread

[IraqiWalker]

Dr HaxZaw, on 20 June 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Clans are meant to be OP /end thread

That is just so wrong. It's part of the reason why we're having threads like this.

The clans are OP in the lore, and somewhat on TT. Not in this game. They are balanced here. Repeating this statement without actual consideration is why we keep having inane arguments.

[1453 R]

I feel as if this thread could use one of these. Ahem:

ATTN:

[Roland]

The reason you are having this thread is because pgi introduced a whole new technology tree, and put it behind a pay wall.

Even if the technology is balanced, an inability for much of the player base to actually use it prevents their ability to judge the balance of that technology for themselves.

Expecting them to take the word of people who have access to that technology that it's balanced and everything is fine is, shall we say, naive.

[IraqiWalker]

Roland, on 20 June 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

The reason you are having this thread is because pgi introduced a whole new technology tree, and put it behind a pay wall.

Even if the technology is balanced, an inability for much of the player base to actually use it prevents their ability to judge the balance of that technology for themselves.

Expecting them to take the word of people who have access to that technology that it's balanced and everything is fine is, shall we say, naive.

We're gonna have access to the first of them in about three weeks. We had the same problem with the Phoenix mechs when they were released, and we had almost he same people complaining about p-2-w back then as well. What's really annoying is that people are too entitled, and impatient to actually test things out, so the first hurdle they run into, they immediately assume it's not their fault (how could it be, they are perfect beings of immaculate calculation and reason), and everything is broken, OP, or pay to win. Or all three put together.

Especially when the problem they are having, can be solved by literally walking around the clan mech, and blasting it from the side, and back.

[Powder Puff Pew Pew]

Its new technology, its supposed to be OP. According to lore and the storyline If it wasnt realistic and better tech and more powerfull which happens all the time in real war it wouldn be fun. I love the aspect of a new enemy with more difficult challenges to face with older mechs and newer models. Thats how war works. If they designed this game to be more evenly matched and every mech was the same I wouldnt play it at all. Nor would I pay money for a game that was so dull and boring as the 1 you are suggesting. Get over the fact you didnt buy a Clan mech and just get out there and fight. I hate seeing threads in here that are nothing but Q_Qing about this weapon is OP, this mech is OP, too much LRMQ_Q's too much Pew Pew, I was sniped head shot by a Artililary strike, Come on people its WAR, all is fair in love in war.

[Roland]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

We're gonna have access to the first of them in about three weeks. We had the same problem with the Phoenix mechs when they were released, and we had almost he same people complaining about p-2-w back then as well. What's really annoying is that people are too entitled, and impatient to actually test things out, so the first hurdle they run into, they immediately assume it's not their fault (how could it be, they are perfect beings of immaculate calculation and reason), and everything is broken, OP, or pay to win. Or all three put together.

Especially when the problem they are having, can be solved by literally walking around the clan mech, and blasting it from the side, and back.

But very few people actually considered the phoenix mechs good. With the exception of the shadowhawk, the phoenix mechs were all generally pretty poor compared to existing mechs which were freely available... And the shadowhawk, while strong for a medium, was still... A medium.

[IraqiWalker]

Powder Puff Pew Pew, on 20 June 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

all is fair in love in war.

I absolutely agree with that last part. However, from what I've been seeing, the clans are evenly matched against IS in here. Since this is a multiplayer game, mechs are supposed to be evenly matched. It's why I can get into my Commando, and still manage to rip a T-wolf or atlas a new one. If I'm good enough.

The mechs here aren't representative of the clan mechs from TT or lore. People need to get over that. Those OP mechs don't exist here. In fact what we have is so weak, that the FRR alone could have ended the Inner Sphere invasion by itself, without back up from any other house.

However, that's what is needed for balance to make this game fun for everyone.

Roland, on 20 June 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

But very few people actually considered the phoenix mechs good. With the exception of the shadowhawk, the phoenix mechs were all generally pretty poor compared to existing mechs which were freely available... And the shadowhawk, while strong for a medium, was still... A medium.

Funny enough, people used to post non-stop about how the Shadowhawk was going to be DOA, and the phoenix packages were a money grabbing scam, and how the T-Bolt and BLR were going to be super OP. Hilarious what happens once people stop running their mouths and actually test things out.

[Roland]

I don't think anyone said the any of the phoenix mechs were over powered after they were actually released though.

Do you remember differently?

[krash27]

Roland, on 20 June 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

The reason you are having this thread is because pgi introduced a whole new technology tree, and put it behind a pay wall.

Even if the technology is balanced, an inability for much of the player base to actually use it prevents their ability to judge the balance of that technology for themselves.

Expecting them to take the word of people who have access to that technology that it's balanced and everything is fine is, shall we say, naive.

Pay wall? you saying we wont ever be able to purchase clan tech with c bills?
To my knowledge we will be able to. It is not a pay wall nor is it a crime for PGI to want to make some cash to keep the lights and servers on at the office. Especially since we will have access to the very same mechs that came with the clan packs in due time.

PGI having cash flow is not a money grab, it is not gouging, nor is it pay to win. It is a viable business model that is called free to play. Where the H E double hockey sticks are they supposed to make money at to keep the game moving along if not by selling new mechs and tech for a spell prior to releasing them to the free to play crowd?

No I did not purchase a clan pack, but I will be. My reasons for not purchasing are irrelevant, what is relevant is even though I personally am having zero difficulty against clan mechs (no more than any other match for the past two years fighting only IS mechs) I have seen them, I think the variants are esthetically cool and have decided I want them.

I would expect people to behave like adults and listen to reason, facts and evidence.

I am a mediocre player at best, but I am fairing no different against the clan mechs.
Wipe the tears away guys, the refractory nature of them seems to be messing with your aim or some crap.
/snotty attitude off.

Edited by krash27, 20 June 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Roland, on 20 June 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I don't think anyone said the any of the phoenix mechs were over powered after they were actually released though.

Do you remember differently?

No, this was all talk before release, and before they became available for C-Bills. A lot of people were talking about how the BLR line is going to replace the stalker as the king of hill humping, and energy ballistic boating, and how the T-Wolf is going to give the CTF a run for it's money.

Once the mechs became available for C-Bills, and MC, and people started using them, most of that died out, and the SHD chassis the one most declared DOA, was actually considered OP, and the BLR and TDR that everyone was yapping on about, turned out to be okay mechs, and not as OP as everyone thought they would be.

[Roland]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

No, this was all talk before release, and before they became available for C-Bills. A lot of people were talking about how the BLR line is going to replace the stalker as the king of hill humping, and energy ballistic boating, and how the T-Wolf is going to give the CTF a run for it's money.

Once the mechs became available for C-Bills, and MC, and people started using them, most of that died out, and the SHD chassis the one most declared DOA, was actually considered OP, and the BLR and TDR that everyone was yapping on about, turned out to be okay mechs, and not as OP as everyone thought they would be.

Yes, but in the case of the Phoenix mechs, as you admit, once they were released no one believed them to be overpowered. There were no threads claiming the phoenix mechs were P2W after their release.

This would constitute a significant difference between the phoenix mechs and the clan mechs, wouldn't you say?

Quote

Pay wall? you saying we wont ever be able to purchase clan tech with c bills?

It's a temporary pay wall... but one which will last for quite a while.

[IraqiWalker]

Roland, on 20 June 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Yes, but in the case of the Phoenix mechs, as you admit, once they were released no one believed them to be overpowered. There were no threads claiming the phoenix mechs were P2W after their release.

This would constitute a significant difference between the phoenix mechs and the clan mechs, wouldn't you say?

To be specific, it was after they were released for C-Bills and MC that things died out. Also, unlike the clan mechs, they didn't introduce new mechanics, nor were they a new faction that was canonically OP.

EDIT: I agree that there is some differences between the two releases. However, the Operating Procedure of some people has been the same.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 20 June 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[Roland]

Well, as I said, I believe that those claiming clan tech to be over powered, as well as those claiming it to be balanced, are both speaking without fully understanding the actual state of balance with clan tech, simply because it will take more than a few days for people to fully grasp how to optimize the clan technology and use it to it's fullest. And since only certain people are able to use it, that process will be slowed.

But one of the problems that the pay wall creates is that many players aren't able to play clan mechs for themselves. This will naturally hinder their ability to see for themselves whether those mechs are balanced.

And unlike the phoenix mechs, the clan mechs are not clearly inferior to existing mechs.