42 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 19 June 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

No More likely they mess it up due to lack of skills or aknowledge or experience and then they search for places to hide behind

So it is never the weapon's fault? The weapons themselves never malfunction? Bro, do you even military?

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Same reason we laugh at you Joe.

It is always funny to laugh at the military (behind the walls of freedom they preserve)

[El Bandito]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 19 June 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

If you handle the weapon bad or miss something to check then its your fault.

And mishaps never happen despite a thorough check? Bro, do you even real life?

That gif file does not show any overt mishandling of the weapon so I have no idea why people think those soldiers were incompetent.

As a reinforcing image of the original post maker, it was a misused one.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 June 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 19 June 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Same reason we laugh at you Joe.

It is always funny to laugh at the military (behind the walls of freedom they preserve)

This sir... Is a good answer

El Bandito, on 19 June 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

And mishaps never happen despite a thorough check? Bro, do you even real life?

That gif file does not show any overt mishandling of the weapon so I have no idea why people think those soldiers were incompetent.

They reacted exactly as training would dictate in that situation... competence. The Mortar manufacturer... Incompetent!

[crossflip]

12 aggressive pugs are still being aggressive alone, unlike an aggressive premade capable of functioning as a whole. Besides, this game doesn't really incentivize dying for the team.

[Fatal25]

I have noticed a real difference in peoples willingness to fight since the clans came out. It is like everyone is afraid they will get one shotted if they poke their heads out so they sit back and wait for the other team to come up with a plan and wipe them out. I understand waiting for the right moment, but that moment isn't when you are losing 2-8. There is a balance between being aggressive and being overly aggressive.

[Sug]

Nothing in this game drives me more insane than a 0 - 0 tie at the nine minute mark. Do we really need to start EVERY match with five minutes of counterclockwise circling?

Do you have any idea how much more fun this game would be if one team decided to go left?

I will lead the charge. I swear from now on I will go left in every single match. I know I'll be alone and when I run into the entire enemy team I'll be called a nub. But someday people will follow me.

Edited by Sug, 19 June 2014 - 07:16 PM.

[Corbenik]

They are afraid of Clan master Race

[Joseph Mallan]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 19 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Where did i say that the weapon cant be faulty brah? Dont understand what ya wanna understand. I said that if you mishandle your weapon, or forget to check wether its faulty or use the weapon in a unproper way- then its your fault.

In mwo terms it means ppl mess stuff up due to the lack of exp./situatiional awareness/ lack of the ability of your mech and weapon, lack of the knowledge of your loudout and its ability. The pic should ve symbolize that since we dunno why the mortar didnt fly properly

El's right, you don't sound like you do Military.

[YueFei]

Focused aggression overcomes timidity.

Very simply: imagine two teams engaging over a ridgeline. Team Red refuses to go over the ridge, and all of them hide behind it, and just take shots of opportunity against whatever enemy happens to appear. Team Blue's mechs, meanwhile, actively maneuver over the ridge to get shots, take turns taking hits, rotating hurt mechs to the back.

Team Blue's mechs lock their targets and repeatedly hit Team Red's Alpha, Delta, and Echo targets over and over again with each clash. Team Red's mechs just haphazardly shoot whatever Blue Team mech they happen to see. Blue Team has 8 mechs with only armor damage, but Red Team has 3 mechs that are getting opened up. Nobody on Red Team has the smarts to actually pop over the ridge to get in shots on the injured Blue Team mechs. Eventually one of Red Team's mechs dies.... his firepower is gone. And then Red Team's Delta mech dies, and then Echo dies, too. Now it's 12v9, and the steamroll begins. Blue Team's injured mechs now rotate to the back, and let fresh 90+% health teammates take the front, but these injured mechs can continue pumping shots into the fight from behind healthier teammates. Between 2 or 3 hurt mechs on Blue Team, they collectively add another 200+ damage into the fight: enough to contribute significantly to the destruction of 2 more of Red Team's mechs.

Before ya know it, it's a 12-to-2 victory for Blue Team.

On the face of it, from the individual perspective of each Red Team member, each player felt as if he played it safe. Each felt like he was being smart. Especially the ones who didn't get focus-fired in the early phases of the match. The 2 or 3 Red Team mechs that got focus-fired look like n00bs because they got taken out early and did very little damage. But the problem lies in the fact that Red Team never had mechs who were willing to pop up over that ridge to get shots in on Blue Team's hurt mechs.

Because everyone on Red Team played selfishly, they actually vastly decreased their odds of winning, and therefore decreased their odds of surviving. It's ironic.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 19 June 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

dude who cares about military? faulty parts /machines can cause everywhere deaths.

Especiall in Extreme sports

You're the one who plugged in that military GIF, so apparently you care. =P

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

The clans brought in a lot of old players who quit because they could not play but blamed the game. It also brought in a lot of new players.

Its why you are seeing more assaults hanging back
Its why you are getting shot in the back by ppl who just hold down the fire button be4 they aim
Its why you are seeing a lot more derp.

It will settle out. The people who cant play but are back just for clans will go buy buy, but not be4 they make post about how its the games issues not theirs.

[ImperialKnight]

too many cowards in this game, not realising it's their cowardice that losing them games. they usually turn around and blame the team when they are the last guy on the team with a 95% Atlas sitting in the backlines shooting ERLLas and still end up not breaking 100 damage

and yes, I think it got worse with the Clan invasion with new players who just bought clan mechs and have no idea what they are doing and just run away when they start getting hit by machine guns

Edited by knightsljx, 19 June 2014 - 10:27 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

Extremely low Time To Kill from massive precision sniping combined with complete vulnerability to LRMs without ECM cover compounded by terrible map design really just creates classical conditioning. Break cover, watch your 'mech turn into a smoking wreck. They're only doing like they learned, like the game taught them.

Until the game rewards breaking cover and taking aggressive action it's not going to happen.

[Ursh]

There are loads of timid players in this game. These are guys who either won't work a flank, or they go for the hail mary super long halfway around the edge of the map flank that puts them into the fight right as their 9th teammate is killed. They won't push a ridge unless there are six mechs in front of them, and they certainly won't ever lead the way around a corner.

Then there are the self-appointed snipers/lrmboats who won't leave a firing position even if the battle has rolled away from them and they don't have a shot on anyone. I find these guys maddening to observe after I die. I try to offer helpful suggestions, like "Hey JimsaNiceRobotXX9, you'll have a great flank shooting position if you move to F8." After another minute of not shooting anyone, he starts moving to F8, only to find out that his team is dead and his flanking shots are now facing the teeth of the enemy team marching on him. Personally, I know I'm always thankful when the cleanup portion of the match involves some undamaged heavy/assault with a long-range loadout who's barely fired a round the entire match, because they're much less frustrating to kill off than a spider.

I also blame the new player guides, as many of them basically tell people to hide out, stay in cover, and wait for your teammates to damage the enemy before you jump into the battle. A lot of people just never moved past that stage and, without aggressive teammates to open the path before them, they'll just hide out for most of the match.

[GreyGriffin]

In my Kit Fox lately I have actually found it useful to find cover very near the enemy and switch to Counter ECM while skirmishing with NARC. Being able to get sensor and missile locks on enemies is a great morale booster, and the red doritos draw aggressive pugs like moths to a flame, and can sweep up the entire team into a successful charge if you are lucky. Narc and Tag also have the added benefit of calling out targets nonverbally or without relying on chat.

I die. A lot. I mean... a lot. But in my years in MWO I've actually found very few sweeter sensations than plonking a NARC onto a speeding ECM spider and watching his whole team light up my radar, even if I immediately explode thereafter.

[LordKnightFandragon]

YueFei, on 19 June 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

Focused aggression overcomes timidity.

Very simply: imagine two teams engaging over a ridgeline. Team Red refuses to go over the ridge, and all of them hide behind it, and just take shots of opportunity against whatever enemy happens to appear. Team Blue's mechs, meanwhile, actively maneuver over the ridge to get shots, take turns taking hits, rotating hurt mechs to the back.

Team Blue's mechs lock their targets and repeatedly hit Team Red's Alpha, Delta, and Echo targets over and over again with each clash. Team Red's mechs just haphazardly shoot whatever Blue Team mech they happen to see. Blue Team has 8 mechs with only armor damage, but Red Team has 3 mechs that are getting opened up. Nobody on Red Team has the smarts to actually pop over the ridge to get in shots on the injured Blue Team mechs. Eventually one of Red Team's mechs dies.... his firepower is gone. And then Red Team's Delta mech dies, and then Echo dies, too. Now it's 12v9, and the steamroll begins. Blue Team's injured mechs now rotate to the back, and let fresh 90+% health teammates take the front, but these injured mechs can continue pumping shots into the fight from behind healthier teammates. Between 2 or 3 hurt mechs on Blue Team, they collectively add another 200+ damage into the fight: enough to contribute significantly to the destruction of 2 more of Red Team's mechs.

Before ya know it, it's a 12-to-2 victory for Blue Team.

On the face of it, from the individual perspective of each Red Team member, each player felt as if he played it safe. Each felt like he was being smart. Especially the ones who didn't get focus-fired in the early phases of the match. The 2 or 3 Red Team mechs that got focus-fired look like n00bs because they got taken out early and did very little damage. But the problem lies in the fact that Red Team never had mechs who were willing to pop up over that ridge to get shots in on Blue Team's hurt mechs.

Because everyone on Red Team played selfishly, they actually vastly decreased their odds of winning, and therefore decreased their odds of surviving. It's ironic.



You're the one who plugged in that military GIF, so apparently you care. =P

Exactly. This is why I even on frozen city, I go up to what ive seen called "idiot ridge" and try to get in early strikes on guys who absolutely assuredly are walking past. It worked well once, stopping the enemy, getting me hammered, me dealing damage and pretty much setting the stage for the battle. We ended up winning and I did live, but didnt get a huge amount of damage iirc, about 200 some I think. I did get pretty blasted by swarms of LRMs and ACs that counter crested that ridge lol.

And that is why I take the HPG center on that map...it provides good sight lines to everywhere, allowing me chances to fire on anything the enemy has.

Im in a warhawk, I view my mech as kinda a spearhead, being an Assault and all. Just seems I either lack ability to fight well, or a competent team....I know I have bad FPS, which really hammers me when trying to take snap shots and ****.

[YueFei]

LordKnightFandragon, on 19 June 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

Exactly. This is why I even on frozen city, I go up to what ive seen called "idiot ridge" and try to get in early strikes on guys who absolutely assuredly are walking past. It worked well once, stopping the enemy, getting me hammered, me dealing damage and pretty much setting the stage for the battle. We ended up winning and I did live, but didnt get a huge amount of damage iirc, about 200 some I think. I did get pretty blasted by swarms of LRMs and ACs that counter crested that ridge lol.

And that is why I take the HPG center on that map...it provides good sight lines to everywhere, allowing me chances to fire on anything the enemy has.

Im in a warhawk, I view my mech as kinda a spearhead, being an Assault and all. Just seems I either lack ability to fight well, or a competent team....I know I have bad FPS, which really hammers me when trying to take snap shots and ****.

Yah, it's good to get into a position to *threaten* large parts of the map. And even though there's often very little glory for the guy who goes in first and tanks for his team, it can win the game if his teammates follow through and take shots while he's tanking.

I played with a Timberwolf player last night who took Company Command, directed the team, got two different elements in position for a pincer attack, and then like a true leader he went in first and tanked a bunch of enemies while our team ripped them apart. He finished with ~200 damage, and somehow survived with 26% health. Just really magnificent maneuvering and torso twisting on his part. I complimented him on it after we won the match. The end-match screen may not have been personally glorious for him, but he basically won that match for us.

I finished the match at 90% health. I had the luxury of literally sitting there, not moving, and had all the time in the world to line up my shots.

I wish the game had some way of rewarding players who tank well.

[FupDup]

YueFei, on 19 June 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

...
I wish the game had some way of rewarding players who tank well.

One problem might be trying to detect "false positives," though. Basically, people might intentionally derp themselves and eat lead without any real strategic gain from it. I guess maybe it could just have an "exponential" type of curve where the initial damage you suffer gives you almost nothing, but once you get to low health (i.e. maybe start giving rewards around 60-50%, and ramp it up from there) then you'd start to notice some monies. I thought about also having it not reward you if you die, but maybe somebody who tanked and died was still useful. Maybe it might factor in the amount of damage to each component (i.e. more uniform spread = more cash, mostly concentrated on a single spot = less cash).

It's kind of hard to decide how to go about doing it.

[Koniving]

El Bandito, on 19 June 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

You mean people are sensible enough to value their lives because it is the only one they got? In that case I agree. You got only 1 life per match.

Joseph Mallan, on 19 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

LOL The mortar failed, and the soldiers reacted fairly accurate to training. But we are laughing at the soldiers... why?

I think it's because the camera man doesn't seem to be afraid of what happened.
However, said camera man was untrained in just what that mortar round would do at any given moment now that it's armed.

I believe in this case laughing at the camera man might be appropriate, assuming said camera man survived what might have come just seconds later. If not, well, in that case we now know what happens to the lone pug who didn't clue in to a danger when the pink smoke appeared.

[YueFei]

FupDup, on 19 June 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

One problem might be trying to detect "false positives," though. Basically, people might intentionally derp themselves and eat lead without any real strategic gain from it. I guess maybe it could just have an "exponential" type of curve where the initial damage you suffer gives you almost nothing, but once you get to low health (i.e. maybe start giving rewards around 60-50%, and ramp it up from there) then you'd start to notice some monies. I thought about also having it not reward you if you die, but maybe somebody who tanked and died was still useful. Maybe it might factor in the amount of damage to each component (i.e. more uniform spread = more cash, mostly concentrated on a single spot = less cash).

It's kind of hard to decide how to go about doing it.

Part of the reward could come from damage mitigated through the damage transfer mechanism. If you use an arm stump to take a hit, you reduced the damage to 50% on your side torso.

Another part of tanking well is that you take hits while your teammates are in position to help you and provide fire support. It doesn't do your team any good if you tank hits while nobody else on your team is in a position to help you.

I'm not sure how the game would detect that. Maybe every time you get hit by an enemy, the game can check to see how many teammates managed to get payback for the hit you took? Along with checking how much damage was dealt? Some kind of damage differential system, maybe? The purpose of tanking is to mitigate damage so that your team can dish it out more effectively, right? So if you take 100 damage, but in that span of time, your team retaliates with 500 damage on the enemies who dealt that 100 damage to you, that's a positive trade of 400 damage. Part of that should factor into your rewards for tanking.

On the other hand, if you tank 200 damage, and you only have 1 piddly Spider teammate who comes along and plinks back for 30 damage, that's a negative 170 damage trade. No need for the game to punish you monetarily in that case, you already got punished enough.

You can also encourage fire support to do their jobs well with this kind of model.